VOGONS


First post, by ThisOldTech

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Hey Guys....

I'm no spring chicken when it comes to troubleshooting hardware... but this has really got me stumped.
It's acted so flakey, but I had it all running so I could do some W95 benchmarking, and then I went to restart it the next day and... trouble started again.

When it worked... it would randomly refuse to fire up until I reseated the PCI video or hdd connectors.. weird I know, but it worked.

I was able to fully load W95, install games and reboot several times and everything was working great for a full day. Completely normal function.

Today?

Hangs on W95 logo
I suspected the hdd, so I tried the original hdd, same thing... hangs on w98 logo
Boot disk, hangs on CDROM driver load.

So... I removed the riser (because I read someone else on here had that issue)
I re-seated memory
I tried a different known-good 166MMX CPU
Different BRAND NEW ATX power supply
Clearing CMOS
Removing battery and letting it sit for a few hours
Cleaning the board and all contacts
I even freakin' re-capped the board today!!
I even re-flowed the solder around the chips that control cache as this is a common failure type for cache issues

Same issue!!

This particular serial number range isn't part of the ones that were recalled for going flakey when double-sided SDRAM were used... But I tried single-sided SDRAM for kicks too, same difference.

Not sure if I'd learn anything by plugging on my POST ISA/PCI card... but I might try that next.

Stupid thing is, even the bios (which is a hard-drive based one) hangs on "Starting MS DOS" which is funny, because who creates a BIOS based on a DOS partition? Compaq apparently.

What haven't I thought of? Everything's so microscopic on this board it'd be a hell of a good time trying to trace lines with my multi-meter but gez.

I'm never one to give up on retro hardware but I'm not quite sure what else is going on here.

Clearly the CPU is locking as soon as some component of an operating system (Dos, W95 or W98) starts firing up.

Can't be VRAM, because I've tried two different known working vid cards.
Can't be RAM because I've tried known good ram and even cleaned dust from the slots.
Can't be HDD/Floppy because I've tried multiple of each.
Not power supply and the Power_Good signal - checked that.

Clock battery is new... What else is there?

I rescue old PCs and keep them from being recycled... and preserve Dos/Win 3.11 Software on https://www.ThisOldTech.ca.
Current Machine: AST Advantage! Adventure 6066d Cyrix DX50, 32M, 500MB, Vibra16 + CD/Floppy

Reply 1 of 6, by brian105

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Perhaps the IDE port is broken? Have you tried a different port/PCI IDE card?

Presario 5284: K6-2+ 550 ACZ @ 600 2v, 256MB PC133, GeForce4 MX 440SE 64MB, MVP3, Maxtor SATA/150 PCI card, 16GB Sandisk U100 SATA SSD
2007 Desktop: Athlon 64 X2 6000+, Asus M2v-MX SE, Foxconn 7950GT 512mb, 4GB DDR2 800, Audigy 2 ZS, WinME/XP

Reply 2 of 6, by ThisOldTech

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Ooh good call - I’ve got a few PCI/ISA I/o controllers to try

I rescue old PCs and keep them from being recycled... and preserve Dos/Win 3.11 Software on https://www.ThisOldTech.ca.
Current Machine: AST Advantage! Adventure 6066d Cyrix DX50, 32M, 500MB, Vibra16 + CD/Floppy

Reply 3 of 6, by ThisOldTech

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Update:
Turns out the I/O Controllers I have require the BIOS/Mobo have the onboard controller disabled, which I can't do at this time.
I managed to create a boot disk version of the BIOS -- and it boots to the menus but as soon as I pick something (like test -- fails after checking 8-9 areas sometimes graphics and sometimes onboard ports)
I created a BIOS update disk, but it fails at "gathering info about your system"

I've got other things to do so I've decided to set this machine aside and have a think on it.

Next step will be to figure out what step happens after this moment in a boot sequence of an operating system.
Either after a CDROM driver loads, during a full system check etc. My guess is something to do with a controller, a PnP system.

Clearing the BIOS, pulling the battery, different boot mediums (HDD, Floppy & CF) different video, sound and no riser at all... I'll also have to re-look at any possible traces near cache or see if I can find an external cache to plug into it.
It does have a certain amount of onboard soldered cache so you'd think the module header wouldn't be needed.

I rescue old PCs and keep them from being recycled... and preserve Dos/Win 3.11 Software on https://www.ThisOldTech.ca.
Current Machine: AST Advantage! Adventure 6066d Cyrix DX50, 32M, 500MB, Vibra16 + CD/Floppy

Reply 4 of 6, by vetz

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I suspect the motherboard could be warped and you have gremlins in your system due to this. I've experienced similar issues you're describing due to this problem. Do you see any difference if you put the system in any other orientation, for instance placing it in vertical position compared to horizontal? Heck, even try upside down if everything is properly secured.

The motherboard that warped in my case was the ASUS P65UP5 which has poor supports to the case compared to other AT boards (and they are even worse than ATX). I pulled the motherboard out of the case and glued some supports underneath on the case (non-conductive) so when the hardware was installed on the board, it would stay as level as possible.

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Reply 5 of 6, by ThisOldTech

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@Vetz - This desktop board is pretty well secure - although I've had the whole board completely out of the machine to replace the caps as one looked suspect (there's only 3 electrolytic on the mobo itself).
The whole thing seemed pretty straight... there were a few suspect traces (weird too on a board of this era because there's no corrosion anywhere on it) but they don't appear to be an issue. So hard to test on a board like these because everything's tiny. In some cases the components are smaller than those on P4's I've repaired.

I think your right though, there's definitely something up with this motherboard... but I *hate* throwing out stuff older than P4 even if it means I'll have to practice my SMD skills. I've repaired a VLB Diamond Viper CPU that fell off and a few others like it... it's always worth it if something's going to be enjoyed by the next generation.

I rescue old PCs and keep them from being recycled... and preserve Dos/Win 3.11 Software on https://www.ThisOldTech.ca.
Current Machine: AST Advantage! Adventure 6066d Cyrix DX50, 32M, 500MB, Vibra16 + CD/Floppy

Reply 6 of 6, by vetz

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ThisOldTech wrote on 2021-05-18, 00:29:

@Vetz - This desktop board is pretty well secure - although I've had the whole board completely out of the machine to replace the caps as one looked suspect (there's only 3 electrolytic on the mobo itself).
The whole thing seemed pretty straight... there were a few suspect traces (weird too on a board of this era because there's no corrosion anywhere on it) but they don't appear to be an issue. So hard to test on a board like these because everything's tiny. In some cases the components are smaller than those on P4's I've repaired.

I think your right though, there's definitely something up with this motherboard... but I *hate* throwing out stuff older than P4 even if it means I'll have to practice my SMD skills. I've repaired a VLB Diamond Viper CPU that fell off and a few others like it... it's always worth it if something's going to be enjoyed by the next generation.

When I had my board out for inspection it was straight and I could not see any visual damage, still the computer only worked as it should when it was in horizontal position, not in vertical. I'd give it a shot to try another orientation or add some pressure on a specific part when booting up.

3D Accelerated Games List (Proprietary APIs - No 3DFX/Direct3D)
3D Acceleration Comparison Episodes