VOGONS


First post, by bloodem

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So... this is the first time I'm seeing something like this.
I have a Palit GeForce 3 Ti 200 which is extremely overclockable (it has been running 100% stable at Ti 500 clocks: 240 MHz core / 250 MHz memory).
So I've long since wanted to give it a special treatment:
- replace the GPU cooler
- replace all caps (even though the original 20 year old caps were not showing any signs of weakness, and the card was working fine).
- add VRAM heatsinks.

A few months ago I started with the GPU cooler, replaced that one with a new DeepCool heatsink + fan that I can still purchase new from multiple local vendors.

Today I had some spare time and decided to replace the capacitors with some new Panasonic FR caps that I had purchased 2 months ago (from what is otherwise a very reliable seller). I usually go with Nichicon or Panasonic FM / FC series caps, but the seller did not have any of those with a diameter of 8mm. So I did some reading and decided to purchase the FR series, which - based on the spec sheet - looked even better in some respects.
These are 1000 uF / 6.3V / low ESR caps, the same rating as the original factory caps that were on the video card.
So I went ahead and replaced them, powered on the card, ran a bunch of benchmarks, all went smoothly. In fact, with the new caps I was able to increase the memory clock beyond Ti 500 speeds, to 260/520 MHz (which was not possible before).
I removed the card, and just as I was about to put it in the antistatic bag, I realized that one of the caps had bulged. I have replaced thousands of caps and I never once experienced something like this...
The way I see it, there are two possibilities: either these FR "Panasonic" caps are fake, or one of the caps was actually a dud (nothing is perfect, I'm sure there are DOA caps too, though I never saw any).

Either way, I now lost any faith and will have to do another full recap, once I find Nichicon or Panasonic FM 8mm stock...

Here are some pics, any thoughts, has this ever happened to you?

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Last edited by bloodem on 2021-06-25, 15:43. Edited 2 times in total.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 1 of 12, by matze79

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Does not look like Panasonic Caps too me.

All Low ESR Caps i ordered are Colored, not B/W.

Where did you purchase them ? i usually go for a Quality Dealer here.

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Reply 2 of 12, by bloodem

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Well, that was my first thought too, but then I checked the official spec sheet for EEUFR0J102 and... they are in fact B/W.
So... very strange.

I bought them from TME.eu, and my experience with them has been extremely good so far.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 3 of 12, by TheMobRules

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Actually the Panasonic FR series do look like that, I bought some from Digi-Key a while back and they look identical to yours. That doesn't rule out the possibility of those being fakes, but they look legit to me.

Regarding the cap that bulged, are you sure the polarity is correct? I know you installed it with the negative on the white mark in the PCB (which is usually the correct way), but there also seems to be a '+' sign on that side so maybe it's mislabelled? Also some manufacturers (such as ASUS) like being funny and use the white mark in the PCB for the positive.

Reply 4 of 12, by weedeewee

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can't help but wonder if the silkscreen of the caps wasn't messed up and due to that the bulging cap is reverse polarized.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
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Reply 5 of 12, by bloodem

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TheMobRules wrote on 2021-06-25, 15:45:

Actually the Panasonic FR series do look like that, I bought some from Digi-Key a while back and they look identical to yours. That doesn't rule out the possibility of those being fakes, but they look legit to me.

Regarding the cap that bulged, are you sure the polarity is correct? I know you installed it with the negative on the white mark in the PCB (which is usually the correct way), but there also seems to be a '+' sign on that side so maybe it's mislabelled? Also some manufacturers (such as ASUS) like being funny and use the white mark in the PCB for the positive.

No, the polarity is correct (there is another smaller "+" sign inside the silkscreened square), I am always extra careful with this. Also checked with a multimeter just now and "-" goes to ground as it should .Anyway, here's a similar card on eBay, the cap is in the same position.

weedeewee wrote on 2021-06-25, 16:01:

can't help but wonder if the silkscreen of the caps wasn't messed up and due to that the bulging cap is reverse polarized.

Unlikely, the long leg was at the positive side...

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 6 of 12, by Tiido

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Maybe the capacitor needed to be higher voltage in that spot ? Or perhaps ripple current rating was being exceeded

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Reply 7 of 12, by bloodem

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Tiido wrote on 2021-06-25, 16:39:

Maybe the capacitor needed to be higher voltage in that spot ? Or perhaps ripple current rating was being exceeded

No, all nine original caps were 1000 uF / 6.3V.
Regarding ripple current, I'm not excluding this possibility, but it's very unlikely that some cheapo Teapo 20-year-old caps had better ripple current tolerance compared to the modern Panasonic FR caps.

Anyway, I've since replaced the bad cap with another Panasonic FR 1000uF/6.3V from the same lot, and the board has been running a 3DMark 2001 loop for the past hour or so. I'm happy to report that there's no bulging yet, so it does look like that one cap was a dud. I'm still debating whether to re-replace them with other caps or not... I don't really trust them anymore 😀.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 9 of 12, by keropi

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TME does not sell fakes btw , they are a reputable retailer just in case anyone is wondering about that

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Reply 10 of 12, by weedeewee

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bloodem wrote on 2021-06-25, 16:10:
weedeewee wrote on 2021-06-25, 16:01:

can't help but wonder if the silkscreen of the caps wasn't messed up and due to that the bulging cap is reverse polarized.

Unlikely, the long leg was at the positive side...

I was insinuating that the silkscreen on the board is wrong, and given that info you placed the cap on the board in the what seemed to you as the right orientation but due to the wrong silkscreen is in fact the wrong orientation.
Easily checked with a multimeter set to continuity.

edit: I just read you already did that. dangit. So let's stick with dud capacitor.

Right to repair is fundamental. You own it, you're allowed to fix it.
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Do not ask Why !
https://www.vogonswiki.com/index.php/Serial_port

Reply 11 of 12, by bloodem

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W.x. wrote on 2021-06-25, 17:01:

My guess is, that only one was bad.

Yeah, it looks like this was the case.

keropi wrote on 2021-06-25, 17:08:

TME does not sell fakes btw , they are a reputable retailer just in case anyone is wondering about that

Yes, I can attest to that. I've always had very good experience with them.

weedeewee wrote on 2021-06-25, 17:22:

I was insinuating that the silkscreen on the board is wrong, and given that info you placed the cap on the board in the what seemed to you as the right orientation but due to the wrong silkscreen is in fact the wrong orientation.
Easily checked with a multimeter set to continuity.

edit: I just read you already did that. dangit. So let's stick with dud capacitor.

Oh, I see. I thought you were talking about the silkscreening on the cap itself. 😀 But, yeah, there's no question about it: the polarity is correct.
Anyway, the card has been running 3DMark2001 in a loop for almost 3 hours, and so far all looks good, no bulging caps (+ it works perfectly beyond Ti 500 speeds - yay!). I will continue using it in the following days too, just to make sure there are no more surprises. 😀

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k

Reply 12 of 12, by bloodem

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UPDATE:

Have been stressing the card for more than a week now, it worked perfectly (and no more bulging going on). So it was in fact a DOA cap 😀
The card is rock solid at Ti 500+ clocks: 240 MHz core / 260(520) MHz memory.

1 x PLCC-68 / 2 x PGA132 / 5 x Skt 3 / 9 x Skt 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Skt 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Skt 370 / 8 x Skt A / 2 x Skt 478 / 2 x Skt 754 / 3 x Skt 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current PC: Ryzen 7 5800X3D
Backup PC: Core i7 7700k