I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples.

Didn't realise there were so many problems with their recent-ish hardware (my Aluminium MacBook has been going strong for 13 years now, not used as much, but never any problems). I can honestly say I have never had to visit a reapir shop (or contact Dell technicians) with all 3 of the cheap-ass Dell's I used over the years.

My current M6800 has had the fans whirling on it (number crunching, compiling) pretty much every day (minus holidays and the occasional weekend) for 6 years, at least 9 hours a day. Go figure?

I can understand a company forcing their patrons into paying them more money by scaring them with danger of death from swallowed screws, or pulled muscles from picking up larger batteries etc... but why a user has such a problem with other users pulling their muscles or swallowing screws is just ridiculous.

spiroyster wrote on 2021-10-15, 09:12:

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples. […]
Show full quote

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples.

Didn't realise there were so many problems with their recent-ish hardware (my Aluminium MacBook has been going strong for 13 years now, not used as much, but never any problems). I can honestly say I have never had to visit a reapir shop (or contact Dell technicians) with all 3 of the cheap-ass Dell's I used over the years.

My current M6800 has had the fans whirling on it (number crunching, compiling) pretty much every day (minus holidays and the occasional weekend) for 6 years, at least 9 hours a day. Go figure?

I can understand a company forcing their patrons into paying them more money by scaring them with danger of death from swallowed screws, or pulled muscles from picking up larger batteries etc... but why a user has such a problem with other users pulling their muscles or swallowing screws is just ridiculous.

I've personally sworn off Dell over the Dell Inspiron 5593 Keyboard issue (look it up), after it happened on two replacement keyboards, I ended up replacing it with a Lenovo Legion 5 with a Ryzen 7 5800h and an RTX 3060 and it's been smooth sailing so far.

gerry wrote on 2021-10-15, 07:31:

there is an argument that states "companies can make things how they like and the consumer can choose not to buy it" […]
Show full quote

appiah4 wrote on 2021-10-15, 05:58:

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 21:16:

I'm also against Right To Repair.

Well, this kind of idiocy deserves a thread of its own.

there is an argument that states "companies can make things how they like and the consumer can choose not to buy it"

except that clearly isn't the case, and hasn't been for a long time

there are various regulations about almost any product prescribing how things should be designed and made

Why would that be necessary? perhaps because there is an acceptance that 'the consumer' cannot have perfect knowledge, they are simply not capable of discerning safe from unsafe etc and it would not be reasonable to expect them to obtain all the necessary information on, for instance, electrical safety and study the products in depth before buying a radio for example.

So the government does that, and does it in concert with industry who *want* there to be regulations to create a set of rules to play by and make it easier for their products to be bought

right to repair is somewhat different, but is along similar lines. the argument is that a consumer cannot be expected to ascertain whether or not the thing they are buying is repairable by either the manufacturer, a third party or the buyer in a way that is considered 'reasonable' in by a regulator (just like a regulator stipulates electrical safety for instance)

It recognises that manufacturers chose, not by accident, to design things to be unrepairable so as to a) make production as cheap as possible and b) 'encourage' the buyer to give up and buy another rather than trying to repair a product

in some ways, especially with fast developing technical product, repairing an old model doesn't give you the same, or anywhere near the same, capabilities as buying a new one so whether people actually want to repair these products is uncertain (but then look at us lot on vogons!)

it's also a reasonable criticism that people will 'repair', ie damage and make unsafe, the product and then potentially blame the manufacturer -or at least set up a storm of legal drama trying to pin it on them

I can't agree more, I was about to say it until I saw your post.
Companies do not make products "as they" want anymore and for good. Imagine a world without any safety regulations ... We'd die from using a microwave ...
In the car example, seatbelts have been put by force for your own safety and that has never stopped innovation in cars.

Some people threw a tantrum against this at the time (which is not the topic), but they pulled it (and for good reasons I think).

Now right to repair isn't for your personal safety, but it could help a lot to reduce the amount of ewaste we produce each year which undeniably a good thing in my opinion (and has obviously other advantages that have already been pointed at here).

People forget that RtoR is a thing with cars and people who drive them are all better for it. It's the reason why I happily drive my 1997 Audi and can bring it to any repair shop when something breaks, instead of being forced to use their official service centers who would "repair" it for me for nearly the same price as a new car or would just tell me to f***k off because I got my car used. A few months ago a light came on for an airbag. I hooked up a laptop through an industry standard port (thanks, RtoR) and could see that it was the passenger-side front airbag. I brought it to a 3'rd party service who could easily replace it with a good quality replacement from BOSH, because BOSH could sell them outside of WV. Again, thanks RtoR.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:52:

My problem with RtoR is with 3rd party repair shops providing a sh*t, poor service without being certified/trained for that, and damaging even more something that should be fixed. Or stealing parts to sell. 3rd party shops aren't trustworthy.

So use a shop that does a good job and source their parts outside of shady alleyways. Just like with cars. You can still do it through official sources, RtoR does not eliminate that choice. Again, just like with cars, where you can bring yours to an official repair center.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:52:

Also, when a guy attemps to repair it by himself, and fails, who takes the blame or pay for it? Not the manufacturer, nope. What if the battery explodes when he attempts to do so, and he dies? Who takes the blame for it? Certainly his family will try to sue the manufacturer for that. And they will lose because it was fully the responsibility of the guy when he attempted to fix it, not the manufacturer. Doesn't matter if he was doing it by himself or if he was working as a 3rd party technician, without being certified/trained for that.

So if I burn myself trying to re-cap an old motherboard, I can sue Gigabyte? interesting.

RtoR does not mean that the manufacturer has not honor warranty for damage that the user does. I have no idea where you got that idea. I replaced the battery on my Zenfone 2 and I wouldn't expect to be able to sue Asus if I punctured the battery .

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-14, 22:52:

I don't think it's "insane" to solder parts to make computers thinner and smaller. I actuallly LIKE it. I don't want to carry a 2kg notebook with me everywhere. I threw through the window a Dell laptop for that reason, just with three months of usage. And please don't try to push your useless left wing/comunist politics to me. They have the right to build the product with whatever they want, and how they want. There are many other brands from whom you can buy. There are options to build your own. Accept that or go home.

How would RtoR eliminate that? Apple can still make their parts the way they want. All soldered on the same thin PCB. They would just be prohibited from purposely trying to hinder parts availability and locking away any modifications with software DRM, just like they do with iPhone screens today.

Funny you should mention communism. I live in a post-communist country and many of the old televisions here had a user-made modification that was illegal. It would allow PAL signal reception to watch western content. So please don't try to paint consumer friendly practices as "communist". Not being able to do what you want with your own things, however...

null

I will just say it once more and for the last time ever on this thread, seeing that I am still being mentioned here even though the moderator reopened the thread on good faith that people would move on.

Right to Repair is illegal and should be shut up, end period.

Nobody should have a say on how companies decide to build their computers, other than their creators and their shareholders. Any customer not happy with that should go buy some other brand instead. Or build your own. You are free to do that, because you have choice.

Only official and authorized repair shops with certified technicians should be doing that job and access the official documentation and parts. This is the same for cars or whatever. This is important to ensure legal protection to customers. And protect them against malicious unauthorized third party repair shops that promises you to fix it with the same quality as official ones and cheaper. This is a crime.

YES, I NEVER took all my previous and current car to third party repair shops. I did it just to exhibit my money? No, I did it because it is the right thing to do. I’m not rich, but I do not have an urge to go out and slap on your face “hey, this is my Ferrari!”. I just chose not to work with criminals.

3rd party repairs would just create more problems with the car and decrease its values because of no official annual revisions made on it. Nobody will buy your car if you tell them that only 3rd party repair shops worked on it, but if I say that Ford worked on mine, the buyer will pay exactly what I am asking for it. That buyer is doing a conscious and safe thing. When a car with unofficial repairs is offered to me, I refuse it because these repairs are untrustworthy. What if any of these repairs did not follow the right procedures as stated by official documentation of the manufacturer? What if this exact repair causes an accident with me when I drive it? Who will refund me for it?

If you want to repair it yourself (I don’t), you also have that choice. No law forbids you to do that. But you have to be fully responsible for this choice and for the loss of warranty. The manufacturer has no legal obligation to give you the “gold mine map” to fix it, because you want to void the warranty, break the contract you acknowledged when you bought it. Unless you are a certified technician by that manufacturer, of course, then you are trained to so.

Unauthorized repair shops not doing authorized repairs should be prosecuted by the law, because it is illegal. 3rd party repair shops are not trustworthy.

Right to Repair is illegal. End of story.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 12:35:

Right to Repair is illegal. End of story.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQCU36pkH7c

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 12:35:

Unauthorized repair shops not doing authorized repairs should be prosecuted by the law, because it is illegal. 3rd party repair shops are not trustworthy.

Right to Repair is illegal. End of story.

Wow. Just. Wow.

My Asus PA249Q monitor failed to turn on this February. I brought it to Asus' own service center (not an authorized one, but directly operated by Asus), waited a week for them to send it back to factory for inspection, only to receive "sorry, we no longer have components stocked for this model."

I searched around the web to see if there's any third party repair could fix this US$600 Adobe RGB monitor. Fortunately I found an LCD specialist who replaced all capacitors for US$70, which I'd say was a reasonable price. My US$600 PA249Q would have to end up in a landfill without third party repair service like him. For the record, the repairman's studio is just a few blocks from Gigabyte's HQ. 😉

I'm curious what would you do if your official repair service claims the item you bought from them is "unfixable"?

Bruninho, you are either clueless wrt RtoR, or trolling. I'll give you the benfit of the doubt and think the latter since you have a habit of imparting the admin hammer of death onto most threads you post in.

Why not go and start a thread outlining all your arguments for the right to repair to be illegal.

A new thread could do two things...

1) See if anyone agrees with you.
2) See how long the thread lasts before (I'd wager) your actions shut it down.

Either way stop risking another closure here. In case you hadn't realised it, you're not convincing anyone here...

dormcat wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:10:

Wow. Just. Wow. […]
Show full quote

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 12:35:

Unauthorized repair shops not doing authorized repairs should be prosecuted by the law, because it is illegal. 3rd party repair shops are not trustworthy.

Right to Repair is illegal. End of story.

Wow. Just. Wow.

My Asus PA249Q monitor failed to turn on this February. I brought it to Asus' own service center (not an authorized one, but directly operated by Asus), waited a week for them to send it back to factory for inspection, only to receive "sorry, we no longer have components stocked for this model."

I searched around the web to see if there's any third party repair could fix this US$600 Adobe RGB monitor. Fortunately I found an LCD specialist who replaced all capacitors for US$70, which I'd say was a reasonable price. My US$600 PA249Q would have to end up in a landfill without third party repair service like him. For the record, the repairman's studio is just a few blocks from Gigabyte's HQ. 😉

I'm curious what would you do if your official repair service claims the item you bought from them is "unfixable"?

I'd just buy a new one. I respect the laws and trust certified repair shops when they say its unfixable. I hope your monitor won't explode on your face for doing an illegal and unauthorized repair and that you fully knew the risks in doing so.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 12:35:

Nobody should have a say on how companies decide to build their computers, other than their creators and their shareholders. Any customer not happy with that should go buy some other brand instead. Or build your own. You are free to do that, because you have choice.

including regulations relating to standards (eg food), accuracy (labelling etc) ,safety (eg electrical safety)?

not trying to trap you, just interested

at the moment there are lots of parties outside as well as among creators and shareholders who do have a say about almost all aspects of how companies build things

I wonder how long it'll be until the Admin's scrub this again........

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:23:

I'd just buy a new one. I respect the laws. I hope your monitor won't explode on your face for doing an illegal and unauthorized repair and that you fully knew the risks in doing so.

The repair specialist showed me he chose high quality MIJ capacitors and allowed me to watch him for the entire recapping operation, finished by testing with multimeter and various video playback from different signal sources. If you ask me I'd say he's far more professional than Asus' factory engineer who'd rather persuade me to buy a new monitor (probably had pressure from the marketing department).

And I don't understand why you keep calling RtR "illegal." Maybe it is so in your country, but not here.

mastergamma12 wrote on 2021-10-15, 09:55:

spiroyster wrote on 2021-10-15, 09:12:

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples. […]
Show full quote

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples.

Didn't realise there were so many problems with their recent-ish hardware (my Aluminium MacBook has been going strong for 13 years now, not used as much, but never any problems). I can honestly say I have never had to visit a reapir shop (or contact Dell technicians) with all 3 of the cheap-ass Dell's I used over the years.

My current M6800 has had the fans whirling on it (number crunching, compiling) pretty much every day (minus holidays and the occasional weekend) for 6 years, at least 9 hours a day. Go figure?

I can understand a company forcing their patrons into paying them more money by scaring them with danger of death from swallowed screws, or pulled muscles from picking up larger batteries etc... but why a user has such a problem with other users pulling their muscles or swallowing screws is just ridiculous.

I've personally sworn off Dell over the Dell Inspiron 5593 Keyboard issue (look it up), after it happened on two replacement keyboards, I ended up replacing it with a Lenovo Legion 5 with a Ryzen 7 5800h and an RTX 3060 and it's been smooth sailing so far.

Ouch. At least people can replace the keyboard in a vein attempt to fix it. Also some with the problem mentioned it may be a softwrae problem and it temp fixed by removing a certain driver.... good luck with resolving that in software in macOS.

My current Dell is a precision (from 2015), so maybe components slightly better. It ain't a looker thats for sure. The Dell's I mentioned are all current/ex-work machines that I have re-homed. Personally if I was spending my hard earned monies on a machine. I don't think I would get a Dell, but can't complain with what I have and ime there can't be any denying they have been absolute workhorses. And still are.

dormcat wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:32:

And I don't understand why you keep calling RtR "illegal." Maybe it is so in your country, but not here.

It's not (Spain is in the EU last time I checked, and googling EU laws wrt RtoR, specifically laptops, tablets and phones gives a recent/definitive answer about it... it also might help him understand what RtoR actually is, namely manufacurers having to make their 'things' fixable for 10 years... at least... it's not just about being allowed to take it to some 'unauthorised' 3rd party to fix).

Either that or he doesn't understand the meaning of the words he uses... but my moneis are on simply fishing for reactions.

That's a really circular argument, 3rd party repairs are bad because they can't know what they are doing, because they shouldn't be allowed to know what they're doing, because they're bad at what they're doing. Also smells more like communism on the part of the corporates, everything you pay for, we own, and by the way, socialise the costs of hyper resource consumption and disposal due to the ever shorter life of our crappy products plzkthx. Also we'd like the people to pay for the creation and enforcement of laws that protect our monopolies and crush any of those pesky entrepreneurial start ups and small businesses that might be at risk of showing they do things better than we can be bothered to. Oh and by the way, due to our bad planning, we're on hard times right now, due to blowing all our cash on excessive bonuses last year, so a handout at the expense of the public would be nice... ...

Apologists for that have to be brainwashed or paid trolls.

dormcat wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:32:

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:23:

I'd just buy a new one. I respect the laws. I hope your monitor won't explode on your face for doing an illegal and unauthorized repair and that you fully knew the risks in doing so.

The repair specialist showed me he chose high quality MIJ capacitors and allowed me to watch him for the entire recapping operation, finished by testing with multimeter and various video playback from different signal sources. If you ask me I'd say he's far more professional than Asus' factory engineer who'd rather persuade me to buy a new monitor (probably had pressure from the marketing department).

And I don't understand why you keep calling RtR "illegal." Maybe it is so in your country, but not here.

The fact that they let you see the entire process and explain it to you doesn't negate the fact that they're not certified, trained and authorized by the manufacturer to do them. It's illegal. I am not talking about who did it better, I am talking about laws and customer protection/rights when things go wrong, and most certainly with 3rd party repair shops they will go wrong.

3rd party repair shops never fixed a thing properly for me, or my parents and my friends. Never. They even broke completely a computer that was perfectly fine in general (stealing parts as well) whose problem was only essentially power (not turning on). We had to bin this computer because of stolen parts. They even stole the plate with the serial number of that computer. They're criminals.

A 3rd party repair shop for cars once attempted to charge me to buy new wheel rims and suspensions for my car. Fortunately I knew they were trying to scam me, so I turned them down and took the car to Ford. That did not cost more and I did not have to change the wheel rims as well, only the rear suspensions. Later this day, I saw a video from that same 3rd party shop showing their mechanics breaking the wheel rims on purpose to force customers to buy new ones from them. Criminals, again.

One of my friends had a problem with the battery of their phone. He took it to a 3rd party repair shop. Guess what? The phone returned to him completely disassembled, lacking some screws. It's outrageous. Another one took his iPod nano to a third party shop too to replace the battery. Guess what? The battery inflated and nearly exploded afterwards. For sure he did not follow right procedures and standards. Saying that they do not have access to the documentation and parts from manufacture is a bad excuse, they should first apply for an authorization and qualify their technicians with their certificate to be able to access these documents and parts. This is exactly the point I defend. RtoR is different, they want it available for everyone in general, be it someone trained or not do to the repairs. And this is dangerous. This is the point I strongly defend here and people fail to realize.

You want them to repair it for you properly? There are ways, third party repair shops should be enforced to be legally authorized and certified, and have their technicians trained and certified by the manufacturers to do the job. This is the only thing I am asking for. RtoR is not asking for that. They are asking for the parts and documentation to be available publicy to everyone in general. And this is the point where I strongly disagree with them.

Not to mention that they want to change how manufacturers build their computers, because of soldered ram, hard disk, or whatever, arguing with a conspiracy theory that they want to make their computers unfixable to charge more from you. That is far from the truth.

spiroyster wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:51:

mastergamma12 wrote on 2021-10-15, 09:55:

spiroyster wrote on 2021-10-15, 09:12:

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples. […]
Show full quote

I for one, am happy the right to repair was exercised in this thread and it wasn't thrown away due a few bad Apples.

Didn't realise there were so many problems with their recent-ish hardware (my Aluminium MacBook has been going strong for 13 years now, not used as much, but never any problems). I can honestly say I have never had to visit a reapir shop (or contact Dell technicians) with all 3 of the cheap-ass Dell's I used over the years.

My current M6800 has had the fans whirling on it (number crunching, compiling) pretty much every day (minus holidays and the occasional weekend) for 6 years, at least 9 hours a day. Go figure?

I can understand a company forcing their patrons into paying them more money by scaring them with danger of death from swallowed screws, or pulled muscles from picking up larger batteries etc... but why a user has such a problem with other users pulling their muscles or swallowing screws is just ridiculous.

I've personally sworn off Dell over the Dell Inspiron 5593 Keyboard issue (look it up), after it happened on two replacement keyboards, I ended up replacing it with a Lenovo Legion 5 with a Ryzen 7 5800h and an RTX 3060 and it's been smooth sailing so far.

Ouch. At least people can replace the keyboard in a vein attempt to fix it. Also some with the problem mentioned it may be a softwrae problem and it temp fixed by removing a certain driver.... good luck with resolving that in software in macOS.

My current Dell is a precision (from 2015), so maybe components slightly better. It ain't a looker thats for sure. The Dell's I mentioned are all current/ex-work machines that I have re-homed. Personally if I was spending my hard earned monies on a machine. I don't think I would get a Dell, but can't complain with what I have and ime there can't be any denying they have been absolute workhorses. And still are.

It wasn't a software issue as it also happened in bios. The laptop also had a cooling design flaw and that's probably why the keyboard ended up going bad.

Speaking of Mac's, wasn't there the whole butterfly keyboard design flaw in the last Intel Macbooks that resulted in the keyboards going bad and wasn't it until the M1 Macbooks that the Butterfly keyboard was replaced.

Bruninho wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:58:

3rd party repair shops never fixed a thing properly for me, or my parents and my friends. Never. They even broke completely a computer that was perfectly fine in general (stealing parts as well) whose problem was only essentially power (not turning on). We had to bin this computer because of stolen parts. They even stole the plate with the serial number of that computer. They're criminals.

A 3rd party repair shop for cars once attempted to charge me to buy new wheel rims and suspensions for my car. Fortunately I knew they were trying to scam me, so I turned them down and took the car to Ford. That did not cost more and I did not have to change the wheel rims as well, only the rear suspensions. Later this day, I saw a video from that same shop showing their mechanics breaking the wheel rims on purpose to force customers to buy new ones from them. Criminals, again.

One of my friends had a problem with the battery of their phone. He took it to a 3rd party repair shop. Guess what? The phone returned to him completely disassembled, lacking some screws. It's outrageous. Another one took his iPod nano to a third party shop too to replace the battery. Guess what? The battery inflated and nearly exploded afterwards. For sure he did not follow right procedures and standards. Saying that they do not have access to the documentation and parts from manufacture is a bad excuse, they should first apply for an authorization and qualify their technicians with their certificate to be able to access these documents and parts. This is exactly the point I defend. RtoR is different, they want it available for everyone in general, be it someone trained or not do to the repairs. And this is dangerous. This is the point I strongly defend here and people fail to realize.

Ahh, I see. Now I have new evidences and rationales explaining why the best electronic factories are all in East Asia. 😉

Pretty sure someone is just posting nonsense to get some replies.

mastergamma12 wrote on 2021-10-15, 13:29:

I wonder how long it'll be until the Admin's scrub this again........

I agree that the admin did not do enough to address this problem considering that the argument around RtoR isn't getting over. 😖