Finally read all of it now I think.

Interesting subject, though (as I mentioned before) any kind of dialogue will be fruitless if one 'side' literally won't even consider the points made by the other side.
As far as I can remember, Apple always made computers which I found harder to service, which is the main reason I have barely any Apple computers at home (I always just gutted them whenever I found them and never brought any home with me since for me PCs seemed easier to repair myself).

Btw, I have no idea how the communism thingy sticks with this?

Once companies/people have an insane amount of money, they also have a lot of power 🤷‍♂️
Especially in countries where politicians need an insane amount of money to run successful campaigns…

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2021-10-16, 09:26:

It would be unhealthy for society to give big companies this level of power.

They kinda already have it. For example, Disney shaping up copyright laws to how they see fit .

Imo they already have too much power and I don't see this trend getting reversed any time soon. This had been going on since at least 50 years or so?
But it is hard to get a full picture of how bad it could be. For anyone who doesn't have the full perspective (which again imo people basically cannot be blamed for because of how hard it is to see the full picture on this), in the end it could even turn into some form of corporate slavery if worst were to come to pass. And we're not close to that level of corporate control yet.
But corporations do have a lot of control, as your example also implies. Imo this is politics failing. Even on a level which can be considered corruption to some degree.
Throwing up hurdles to delay this is imo already a good thing if only for this reason. It's also a reason why I am against the removal of physical cash because if all money ends up only existing digitally, it will be the banks who control us (yes, the same league of corporations that we as tax payers had to bail out within our own lifetime because of their endless greed).

My apologies for seemingly going a bit off topic here, but this is an important component for what is on topic as I personally have the firm belief that individual freedom is much too an important thing to have to give up. And this includes purposefully keeping individuals dumb breaking their ability to repair their own stuff.

Tetrium wrote on 2021-10-16, 09:29:

Btw, I have no idea how the communism thingy sticks with this?

Born in a communist country I just can assume that the logic is the following. In former USSR consumer products were of very poor quality, and the official service barely existed. So everyone had to reapair things either by own means or by unofficial technicians. let alone noone had the money to buy new appliances or cars even if you could find any for sale. The latter was even a bigger problem. Overall communism is associated with poverty, and a classical example is something repaired with a blue electrical tape.
In contrast capitalism appears to some as something shiny, like a new apple computer.
Another and much more primitive logic is that if you criticise capitalism or any of it's manufestations - you're a communist.

BTW I'm reading now the Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff. And she insists that we now have not the true real healthy capitalism, but it has descended to "surveillance capitalism". And dispossessing of the right to trully own a thing(which includes the right to repair) is a part of it.

It's difficult to have a discussion on anything Apple related because many of their "fans" have a behavior that is pretty much religious, or cult-like in nature. I remember years ago on some kind of Mac forum I dared to question Apple's decision to stop including the little foam pads with their iPod/iPhone earbuds, since they were just falling off my ears... I was met with all kinds of insults, that it was basically my fault and that I should get smaller ears. And it was not just one or two forum members that said that, so to me it painted a good picture of how they behave. That's why I'm not surprised with the RtoR discussion ending up in a similar way, even suggesting that Apple could be wrong about something affects the air of exclusivity cultivated and promoted by them, that's why such thoughts must be shot down at any cost.

For what it's worth, I use both an iPhone 7 which I bought new long ago (I know it's old, but I'm not really into changing my phone every year) and a 2019 MacBook Pro with all the bells and whistles for my day to day work that was given to me by my employer. While I think they make good products, they're not that big of a deal to me, it's mostly good marketing.

I dont know if there's ever ever been an opinion more opposed to the very spirit of Vogons than "right to repair should be illegal."

many of their "fans" have a behavior that is pretty much religious, or cult-like in nature

That sums up their hostile opinions on third-party repairs (or any repairs in reality) - "You're defiling sacred Apple technology!". The irony of good old "1984" commercial is totally lost.

keenerb wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:09:

I dont know if there's ever ever been an opinion more opposed to the very spirit of Vogons than "right to repair should be illegal."

Very Old Games On Newer Systems
😜

TheMobRules wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:06:

It's difficult to have a discussion on anything Apple related because many of their "fans" have a behavior that is pretty much religious, or cult-like in nature. I remember years ago on some kind of Mac forum I dared to question Apple's decision to stop including the little foam pads with their iPod/iPhone earbuds, since they were just falling off my ears... I was met with all kinds of insults, that it was basically my fault and that I should get smaller ears. And it was not just one or two forum members that said that, so to me it painted a good picture of how they behave. That's why I'm not surprised with the RtoR discussion ending up in a similar way, even suggesting that Apple could be wrong about something affects the air of exclusivity cultivated and promoted by them, that's why such thoughts must be shot down at any cost.

For what it's worth, I use both an iPhone 7 which I bought new long ago (I know it's old, but I'm not really into changing my phone every year) and a 2019 MacBook Pro with all the bells and whistles for my day to day work that was given to me by my employer. While I think they make good products, they're not that big of a deal to me, it's mostly good marketing.

The same holds true for people that hold a religious grudge on Apple and can’t stop themselves from spewing hate and misinformation whenever Apple comes up 🤷‍♂️
And no, you didn‘t 🤣, just wanted to give another example why discussions mentioning Apple are hard

Doornkaat wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:14:

keenerb wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:09:

I dont know if there's ever ever been an opinion more opposed to the very spirit of Vogons than "right to repair should be illegal."

Very Old Games On Newer Systems
😜

We are in the old hardware forum though.

That makes me remember this old piece of news :

IT'S OFFICIAL: Apple Fanboyism Is A Religion: Neuroscientists Find Both Trigger Same Reaction In Brain

Praise the Omnissiah!

keenerb wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:16:

Doornkaat wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:14:

keenerb wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:09:

I dont know if there's ever ever been an opinion more opposed to the very spirit of Vogons than "right to repair should be illegal."

Very Old Games On Newer Systems
😜

We are in the old hardware forum though.

Yes, but it’s a subforum of Vogons and the true spirit is right there in the logo!

Fanboyism fairly quickly gets a religious touch. Just look at soccer!

Stating the problem of fanboyism of many in a discussion is a clever ploy to invalidate every argument from Apple users. Clever but not helpful

Bondi wrote on 2021-10-16, 09:55:

Born in a communist country I just can assume that the logic is the following. In former USSR consumer products were of very poo […]
Show full quote

Tetrium wrote on 2021-10-16, 09:29:

Btw, I have no idea how the communism thingy sticks with this?

Born in a communist country I just can assume that the logic is the following. In former USSR consumer products were of very poor quality, and the official service barely existed. So everyone had to reapair things either by own means or by unofficial technicians. let alone noone had the money to buy new appliances or cars even if you could find any for sale. The latter was even a bigger problem. Overall communism is associated with poverty, and a classical example is something repaired with a blue electrical tape.
In contrast capitalism appears to some as something shiny, like a new apple computer.
Another and much more primitive logic is that if you criticise capitalism or any of it's manufestations - you're a communist.

This sounds sensible. Except the bottom line of course 😜

BTW I'm reading now the Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff. And she insists that we now have not the true real healthy capitalism, but it has descended to "surveillance capitalism". And dispossessing of the right to trully own a thing(which includes the right to repair) is a part of it.

I never heard of "surveillance capitalism" before, but I think the name is very fitting.
Abolishing cash money would btw also fit into this scheme 😜

My reply failed to post.

Nobody has ever said "Thank god nobody ever sold replacement deep blue chips for Tandy 1000 systems. Also, we'd have been better off of those Olivetti M24 schematics had never been published."

Planned / forced obsolescence kinda sucks all around.

I dont feel like manufacturers should be dictated into design requirements beyond what already exist but parts and documentation should be available for common fault points at the very least.

TheMobRules wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:06:

It's difficult to have a discussion on anything Apple related because many of their "fans" have a behavior that is pretty much religious, or cult-like in nature. I remember years ago on some kind of Mac forum I dared to question Apple's decision to stop including the little foam pads with their iPod/iPhone earbuds, since they were just falling off my ears... I was met with all kinds of insults, that it was basically my fault and that I should get smaller ears. And it was not just one or two forum members that said that, so to me it painted a good picture of how they behave. That's why I'm not surprised with the RtoR discussion ending up in a similar way, even suggesting that Apple could be wrong about something affects the air of exclusivity cultivated and promoted by them, that's why such thoughts must be shot down at any cost.

For what it's worth, I use both an iPhone 7 which I bought new long ago (I know it's old, but I'm not really into changing my phone every year) and a 2019 MacBook Pro with all the bells and whistles for my day to day work that was given to me by my employer. While I think they make good products, they're not that big of a deal to me, it's mostly good marketing.

Fanboyism always seems to have the tendency to turn gatherings into an echo chamber suited for a particularly dumb kind of ...cattle? I don't really know what to make of it but it is a form of herding for sure.
There's no logic and no reasoning going into the dialogues anymore once you can't get through to them anymore.
Really sad once a community turns into something like that. lets hope this will never happen here 😀

This does however remind me of something which has been kinda bugging me for a while now and that's that there was a thread here on Vogons for to show your games collection, but once someone showed some pics and stories of some games which were not PC games the OP changed the title to include only IBM compatible games and then went a little ranty about it which I thought was kinda frowning. I always thought that was kind of a dick move especially since there probably aren't that many non-PC games collections here on Vogons anyway.

But I admit, I was also a bit of a fanboy in some regards at least like how I never liked anything related to netburst until I build my first Northwood rig and how I have always liked 3DFX cards even before the world went on a mad Voodoo hoarding rampage 😜

Dominus wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:25:

Fanboyism fairly quickly gets a religious touch. Just look at soccer!

Stating the problem of fanboyism of many in a discussion is a clever ploy to invalidate every argument from Apple users. Clever but not helpful

This is actually the primary reason why I stopped watching this.
And stuff like fans of 2 rivalling soccer clubs organising a meeting near a highway where they would bash each others heads in with baseballbats and whatsnot where 1 person ended up dying.
Link

xcomcmdr wrote on 2021-10-16, 10:17:

That makes me remember this old piece of news :

IT'S OFFICIAL: Apple Fanboyism Is A Religion: Neuroscientists Find Both Trigger Same Reaction In Brain

I'm not really surpirsed by a thing like this tbh.
Thankfully some people are less succeptible than others for this but it's still shocking how many are easily influenced like this.
Another question however could be in how much is this their own fault? And how much is perhaps lack of proper and relevant education at fault?

Sometimes I just get the thought of it being about dumb people in a group being happy that they all can go be dumb together (unchallenged of course!) or something.

And stuff like fans of 2 rivalling soccer clubs organising a meeting near a highway where they would bash each others heads

Oi, dat ozer munke tribe sayz dey bettar zan us. Letz beat dem skullz and show'em whoz da rial bozz 'ere.