ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 17:08:

Yeah, multi core just means youre not even trying to make it support all of the hardware. In which case anything that uses 775 based core processors is a joke.

high IPC's bud, no bottleneck to the gpu. as long as it works for the late 98 games, im happy and sc-55 compatability for late dos games, is ok for me

gmaverick2k wrote on 2023-10-18, 17:28:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 17:08:

Yeah, multi core just means youre not even trying to make it support all of the hardware. In which case anything that uses 775 based core processors is a joke.

high IPC's bud, no bottleneck to the gpu. as long as it works for the late 98 games, im happy and sc-55 compatability for late dos games, is ok for me

Yeah I mean thats fair enough. But it also means none of us get to ride their high horse about what an Ultimate build is.
Because like I said I see systems that use Core2 CPUs as a joke.

One mans castle is another mans greenhouse.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 18:24:

Because like I said I see systems that use Core2 CPUs as a joke.

I'm not sure I follow. A Core 2 Duo E8600 paired with an X800 series Radeon can play any Win9x game released up until the tail end of 2001 at the 1600x1200 resolution with 4xAA and 16xAF while maintaining 60+ FPS. Game compatibility won't be perfect (no table fog and paletted textures) but it will still be pretty decent most of the time.

Throw in an Audigy 2 ZS and you have excellent Win9x sound, as well as some compatibility with DOS games via SB16 emulation. Also, despite not being an officially supported platform, you can get most of the driver issues sorted out with some effort, so that your Device Manager has no exclamation marks once everything is done.

Now, I wouldn't call that an "ultimate" build, just a highly overpowered Win9x system. The specs are way over the top, but it can be fun to fully max out old games. Not everyone is into that, and that's fine too. Personally, I like how such a system keeps even your 1% lows above 60 FPS, for a buttery smooth experience. Some CPU demanding games like Deus Ex can benefit from that.

Game compatibility won't be perfect (no table fog and paletted textures)

Only in games without Glide, which can be emulated on cards with Shader Model 2.0+ quite well.

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 13:12:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-05, 17:52:

led178 wrote:

If ultimate then like this

Ah yes, another uninspiring "lets make generic LGA775 PCIe build, just like Phil did 100 times already", from Kaspersky antivirus blog (!?) of all places. Just like this cookie cutter thread.

Yeah he did but that doesnt mean somebody else cant do it again for themselves.
Thats one of the problems with youtubers like Phil. Just because he has done it to death on his channel it doesnt mean somebody cant build a system for themselves.

I get the fatigue with Phil's builds in this context, I've found myself that his channel has become more and more repetitive and dare I say, even bordering on boring. But I'd like to remind that from what I've always understood, he started doing those kind of builds to provide more valid, readily available and cheaper hardware options to people, so they could too have easier access to DOS/Win9x builds and the like. I know in some countries (like mine) retro hardware is still well available at cheap prices if you're patient and willing to look around carefully, but in others it's become next to impossible to find it for a myriad of reasons. The fact that he was sensitive to that difference in realities to the point of stretching what's possible and experimenting, whether by necessity or not, is worthy of appreciation.

As for his content, I honestly don't even care if it goes back to form ever again. Phil's made so many different contributions to the hobby that for me it's more than enough

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-10-18, 16:53:

Windows 98 only supports single core CPU.
So NO Dual Core CPU or Multicore CPU.

Modern-ish boards and newer can disable cores (or Hyper Threading).
You can make a single core out of Hex core or Octa core, no problem.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-10-19, 16:34:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-10-18, 13:12:

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-02-05, 17:52:

Ah yes, another uninspiring "lets make generic LGA775 PCIe build, just like Phil did 100 times already", from Kaspersky antivirus blog (!?) of all places. Just like this cookie cutter thread.

Yeah he did but that doesnt mean somebody else cant do it again for themselves.
Thats one of the problems with youtubers like Phil. Just because he has done it to death on his channel it doesnt mean somebody cant build a system for themselves.

I get the fatigue with Phil's builds in this context, I've found myself that his channel has become more and more repetitive and dare I say, even bordering on boring. But I'd like to remind that from what I've always understood, he started doing those kind of builds to provide more valid, readily available and cheaper hardware options to people, so they could too have easier access to DOS/Win9x builds and the like. I know in some countries (like mine) retro hardware is still well available at cheap prices if you're patient and willing to look around carefully, but in others it's become next to impossible to find it for a myriad of reasons. The fact that he was sensitive to that difference in realities to the point of stretching what's possible and experimenting, whether by necessity or not, is worthy of appreciation.

As for his content, I honestly don't even care if it goes back to form ever again. Phil's made so many different contributions to the hobby that for me it's more than enough

But the problem is every time he recommends cheaper hardware options the prices for them goes up because they have been made more popular.

Other than hosting some of the drivers he found interesting I cant see any real or worthwhile contributions. At least not to me. Which isnt to say others might have found it so.

I don’t build retro rockets because I want the ultimate machine (there’s always a better component out there). I build them because they’re Awesome! This is the kind of performance I wish I had when I installed Windows 98 Beta 3 on a Pentium 133 in early 1998. I do it for myself (although I sometimes post here to show off, a bit). I don't see any issue if another enthusiast wants to replicate my projects or those of someone else.

I use modernish parts to get the best performance out of the components. I prefer to operate components at stock settings (I dabble with overclocking, but I don’t care for it), so I try to find excellent performance out of the box while maintaining maximum compatibility with key functions. Those functions for me include: high-speed data storage access, optical drive access for CD and DVD playback, stereo sound (ideally with advanced audio effects), high-resolution and high color-depth graphics (ideally with advanced 3D effects), a large pool of accessible memory, and high-speed networking.

I also try to balance power and volume requirements (I sometimes build in smaller cases), cost, and component quantity due to limited physical storage space.

Yes, modern, multi-core processors do waste silicon space on the die when using Windows 98 since it cannot handle more than one processor/core. On the flipside, many Intel and AMD processors boost a single core to full Turbo speed automatically (4 GHz on my Ivy Bridge system and 4.4 GHz on my Devil’s Canyon system). A single core operating at full speed also uses only a fraction of the maximum power rating for the CPU, so power delivery and cooling aren’t a serious concern as long as the cooler can handle the chip’s hotspots.

In addition, modern CPUs incorporated the RAM controller into the CPU itself which improves performance. That coupled with newer high-speed RAM boosts performance greatly compared to older architectures such as the Pentium 4 and Core 2 platforms (newer AMD architectures also benefit from this approach). RAM access is completely transparent to the OS, so Windows 98 benefits from faster RAM without any software modification. Some systems may require RLoew’s RAM patch due to non-standard memory maps, though.

Yes, the ATI R400-series doesn’t provide support for certain fog and palletized color effects. I consider this a matter of taste. I used ATI-based cards in the late 90s and early 2000s, so I never had these effects enabled for use in the games I played back then. While I’ve seen these effects more recently (and appreciate them), the fact of the matter is that those games look the way I remember them on my x800. I can live with that. I don’t have any serious issues with older DirectX/OpenGL titles that I own with this card. I can also run DirectX 9 games (such as Call of Duty) very well within Windows 9x and Me.

Yes, Nvidia and ATI/AMD cards don’t natively support the Glide API. I again consider this a matter of taste. Like above, I used DirectX and OpenGL for the games I played back then, and that’s how I remember them. I don’t own any 3DFX cards, so I’m really not a connoisseur of Glide effects.

Finally, I prefer to use Windows 9x for Windows software. DOS compatibility (including the DOS VM within Windows) is not a priority for my builds. I have other computer builds (both period correct and retro rockets) better suited for high-performance DOS. I will say my Win 9x retro rockets are more than fast enough to run DOSBox well for DOS games if I choose to play them.

Using over-spec'd HW because it is cheaper and more readily available than era-appropriate HW is totally valid.

That said, yeah I agree that it isn't what I would consider an "ultimate Win98 computer." I think a lot of people agree that there's no such thing and it's very subjective. Personally, I like running hardware at its own limits with contemporary software that makes it sweat. That means not necessarily putting max CPU/RAM in whatever mobo I'm using, etc. Sure, back in the day I was into OC'ing, but these days I prefer to use retro HW within its limits - more likely to be stable, and more importantly, doesn't put undue stress on it.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-10-19, 16:34:

I get the fatigue with Phil's builds in this context, I've found myself that his channel has become more and more repetitive and dare I say, even bordering on boring.

In fairness, he's been running his channel for almost a decade. There is only so much retro content and retro builds before it will start to feel same-y.

I feel LGR is reaching a similar point. His videos seem like they are becoming about progressively more obscure retro hardware.

While it's true that eBay retro hardware prices go up every time a popular YouTube channel uses them, I don't blame Phil or LGR for that. Scalpers are an eBay plague, and this is sadly the norm for that platform.

Local classifieds often have much better prices, albeit with a more limited hardware selection.

ubiq wrote on 2023-10-19, 23:12:

That said, yeah I agree that it isn't what I would consider an "ultimate Win98 computer." I think a lot of people agree that there's no such thing and it's very subjective. Personally, I like running hardware at its own limits with contemporary software that makes it sweat. That means not necessarily putting max CPU/RAM in whatever mobo I'm using, etc. Sure, back in the day I was into OC'ing, but these days I prefer to use retro HW within its limits - more likely to be stable, and more importantly, doesn't put undue stress on it.

This is more or less me also. I'm not a period correct nazi by any means, but I use and build systems that are represetantive for era. They may be sort of high-end for the era or not, but I take the systems for what they are. I don't need them to run some old software with 300fps@4K with modern mods which tax the system much more than the original release.

There is also a clear limit what interests me or not in terms of old PC systems. PC doesn't have clear generations like consoles, because HW is constantly evolving, but I have zero interest in building WinXP computer running parts from late 2000s or early 2010s,. They are just obsolete computers to me and hardwarewise resemble too much what we have today (multicore, PCI-X, GPUs with unified shaders, SATA etc.) and my interest ends at around A64/P4 and 2004. There is also the fact, that many games from 2005-6 onwards don't interest me that much from the retro gaming perspective as library is getting quite contemporary. Same applies to consoles and I don't consider PS3 or X360 retro, because outside the HW architecture of those systems, games and the general user experience is more or less what we have today, only with poorer assets, that is they have less performance. Besides, I can run games from that late era WinXP mostly fine on my modern desktop if I want to, because compatibility issues are much less common so I haven't even found a use case for such system. I have also zero interest building for example, a win98 computer from the more recent parts that most likely were never actually used with a win98 OS, even if drivers existed.

This means that for me, ultimate something is pretty much top end system you could roughly build at certain period in time for the software that also was run with such systems. Not every component needs to be from certain year, for example, but something that could've been running then or with, let's say, GPU upgrade year or two later. For example, I recently built a neat watercooled and overclocked WinXP Socket A system which is not absolutely the best, but close to the top end you could build during 2003 (Epox 8RGA+, Barton 2500+, FX5900XT, 1GB RAM). It runs the games from the era great, as well as most later Win98 games, of course. WinXP was the natural choice, because almost nobody, including me at the time, didn't use Win98 with such system anymore. Win98 fizzled away quite fast after XP was released, at least with enthusiasts back in the day.

On the otherhand, I enjoy slower systems also and take them for what they are. My lowly IBM PS/2 386SX-20 is fun system for late 80s-early 90s stuff while I have faster 486 systems which more or less do the same thing, but with better performance and handle later stuff better.

I said "Ultimate" not "Fastest". by Ultimate I should have said "Best Compatibility with Good Game play Performance".
So hardware that has the Best compatibility with Win98 ERA Games.

I am Starting out with Voodoo-3-3000 AGP Video card.
So the entire system will be built around this card.

Sure the Nvidia video cards will probably have the Best graphics and Game support but I want to play the largest assortments of games
From Win98 ERA.

Intel486dx33 wrote on 2023-10-20, 07:12:

I am Starting out with Voodoo-3-3000 AGP Video card.

A Voodoo 3 will struggle with a number of games released in 2000 and 2001. Notable examples include Max Payne, Return to Castle Wolfenstein and Serious Sam. Also, it can't run some early Glide titles like Pandemonium and Mortal Kombat 4 (in Glide mode).

Sure the Nvidia video cards will probably have the Best graphics and Game support but I want to play the largest assortments of games

You can achieve superb compatibility with older games while having excellent performance in newer ones by pairing a GeForce 4 Ti4200 with a Voodoo 2.

From Win98 ERA.

The "Win98 era" is a somewhat subjective term. Some people switched to WinXP in late 2001 or early 2002, while others kept using Win98 (or WinME) until 2003-2005. Personally, I treat 2001 as the cutoff point for Win9x gaming, since most games released in 2002 or later perform better on a more powerful WinXP system.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-10-20, 00:09:

andre_6 wrote on 2023-10-19, 16:34:

I get the fatigue with Phil's builds in this context, I've found myself that his channel has become more and more repetitive and dare I say, even bordering on boring.

In fairness, he's been running his channel for almost a decade. There is only so much retro content and retro builds before it will start to feel same-y.

I feel LGR is reaching a similar point. His videos seem like they are becoming about progressively more obscure retro hardware.

I don't mean to hijack the thread so I'll be brief, relating to Phil I also believe that might be the reason. As for LGR, for me it's different, I always had a stand-off ish attitude about his content, as some things always rubbed me the wrong way. But sure, I've watched some stuff

3850 is faster in a few things slower in a lot of others, this isn't the 4650 which is indeed slower, I've seen all the benchmarks and in 90% of things not gaming the two are tied where the 4670 trumps the 3850 is in power usage and heat .. oh and reliability ..the 3850 were fucking terrible cards for reliability and even the AGP versions were unreliable piles of shite.

Reality is a shocking amount of HD3000 series cards are either dead, dying or will die very soon and I wouldn't ever suggest buying one for usage in any system outside of testing reasons. (I guess they got it hard in the cap plague)

Well, I ran my passively cooled HD3850 for 11 years in a system that for a time was run on fully passive cooling when surfing the web etc.. And it still works. It's a card by Sapphire, so maybe reliability depends on the manufacturer.

Shponglefan wrote on 2023-10-20, 00:09:

andre_6 wrote on 2023-10-19, 16:34:

I get the fatigue with Phil's builds in this context, I've found myself that his channel has become more and more repetitive and dare I say, even bordering on boring.

In fairness, he's been running his channel for almost a decade. There is only so much retro content and retro builds before it will start to feel same-y.

I feel LGR is reaching a similar point. His videos seem like they are becoming about progressively more obscure retro hardware.

check out Tech Tangents youtube channel. Even though I have no actual interest in pre '95 PC tech, he has some interesting videos