I run a NetWare server which everything (DOS 3.1+, Windows 3.x/9x/NT 3.5-XP, OS/2, MacOS) can happily talk to. Its not a simple solution though - RetroNAS would perhaps be a better option if you're not using DOS.

Security-wise I think you're probably ok as long as you don't go forwarding any ports on your router to retro systems. If hosts on the internet can't establish a connection to something insecure on your LAN then I think the only way you're going to get into trouble is if either one of your retro systems goes connecting to bad hosts on the internet or if something else on your network (your modern PC) gets compromised. But malware designed for Windows 10 probably won't work too well on Windows 98 (it might work on XP though).

I don't block my retro systems from accessing the internet but out of the box windows won't really try doing internet things (except perhaps talk to microsoft servers to try and look for updates). And given how useless antique browsers are on the modern web I find they're really only useful as a graphical FTP client these days.

LAN + TCP/IP. I have set up a Linux server with Samba and Vsftpd daemons both sharing the same directory tree. On clients I have Windows (SMB), Linux (FTP), UNIX (FTP), DOS (FTP with mtcp suite).

davidrg wrote on 2022-03-06, 20:47:

Security-wise I think you're probably ok as long as you don't go forwarding any ports on your router to retro systems.

My biggest problem is actually that I can't even get my Windows 98 PC to properly work with my newer internet connected router (ASUS GS-AX3000). Im using a startech 1 gb card. It seems to think I have a static IP set up when I don't, and I cannot even ping the router in command prompt. I don't know if it's the routers problem, or if it's the way the Windows 98 Autopatcher I used updated the network capabilities of my 98 installation.

RetroNAS here, serving my DOS, 9x and XP machines.

Before this I just had my retro machines on my main LAN, pretty well exposed to the world. You can mitigate the risk here by not configuring gateways. But it was cool to occasionally hit a website or BBS. I didn't have any network storage per se; I kept my library on the main Win10 rig and used FTP for transfer.

When I set up my RetroNAS I chose hardware with multiple NICs so I could run modern & retro on separate subnets. This adds some peace of mind security wise, but by default also adds limitations because my retro gear is no longer internet exposed. Some of the included tools solve this: WebOne acts as a bridge if I really want to browse the web from a retro box, and tcpser gets me BBSing.

Security should always remain at the front of your mind, and this just comes down to the same good practice that you engage when using modern PCs on the internet. Use trusted sites & sources, scan your downloads, etc. What I really like here is that I'm not exposing my Win10 box to any old insecure protocols.

I can't speak highly enough of this setup. It's so nice to set up a new machine, maybe get your initial drivers across on a CD or floppy, then just hit the network for everything else you need. I've always had CF cards in my builds, but even that feels like a hassle now.

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-06, 21:51:

davidrg wrote on 2022-03-06, 20:47:

Security-wise I think you're probably ok as long as you don't go forwarding any ports on your router to retro systems.

My biggest problem is actually that I can't even get my Windows 98 PC to properly work with my newer internet connected router (ASUS GS-AX3000). Im using a startech 1 gb card. It seems to think I have a static IP set up when I don't, and I cannot even ping the router in command prompt. I don't know if it's the routers problem, or if it's the way the Windows 98 Autopatcher I used updated the network capabilities of my 98 installation.

None of that stuff has changed in an incompatible way recently - my mid-90s stuff can still do DHCP to my modern Ubiquiti router. If its configured to do DHCP and its not working then there is probably either a cabling problem, the network card is incompatible or not installed correctly.

davidrg wrote on 2022-03-06, 22:03:

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-06, 21:51:

davidrg wrote on 2022-03-06, 20:47:

Security-wise I think you're probably ok as long as you don't go forwarding any ports on your router to retro systems.

My biggest problem is actually that I can't even get my Windows 98 PC to properly work with my newer internet connected router (ASUS GS-AX3000). Im using a startech 1 gb card. It seems to think I have a static IP set up when I don't, and I cannot even ping the router in command prompt. I don't know if it's the routers problem, or if it's the way the Windows 98 Autopatcher I used updated the network capabilities of my 98 installation.

None of that stuff has changed in an incompatible way recently - my mid-90s stuff can still do DHCP to my modern Ubiquiti router. If its configured to do DHCP and its not working then there is probably either a cabling problem, the network card is incompatible or not installed correctly.

With mTCP, an XT can do DHCP and FTP. I've had no troubles with either on Win98 (with either Intel or 3Com 100Mb or Gb NICs). I agree - bad drivers, bad hardware or bad cables.

That StarTech stuff is crappy Realtek RTL8110. The chip is a 3.3V-design but is supposedly 5V tolerant - if the card implements it. Not all do. Most Win98 systems will be 5V-only. This could be part of the problem. As for drivers, Realtek still has everything nicely online. If you're using something else, try the Win98SE/ME drivers here. https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/cate … y/pci-8169-8110 (note: WDM drivers, Win98FE not supported)

And as for IP: to rule out DHCP issues, set a static IP within the subnet of your router but outside of its DHCP pool. If that works, DHCP was the culprit. If not, not.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-06, 22:18:

With mTCP, an XT can do DHCP and FTP. I've had no troubles with either on Win98 (with either Intel or 3Com 100Mb or Gb NICs). I agree - bad drivers, bad hardware or bad cables.

That StarTech stuff is crappy Realtek RTL8110. The chip is a 3.3V-design but is supposedly 5V tolerant - if the card implements it. Not all do. Most Win98 systems will be 5V-only. This could be part of the problem. As for drivers, Realtek still has everything nicely online. If you're using something else, try the Win98SE/ME drivers here. https://www.realtek.com/en/component/zoo/cate … y/pci-8169-8110 (note: WDM drivers, Win98FE not supported)

And as for IP: to rule out DHCP issues, set a static IP within the subnet of your router but outside of its DHCP pool. If that works, DHCP was the culprit. If not, not.

Is startech just awful in general? I went through 2 of their CF readers almost as soon as I bought them, their USB 2.0 card has been really finicky for me, and now I find this out about my network card. Are there any good 1 gb ethernet cards that are fully compatible with Windows 98? Is there actually a point to getting a network card thats that fast on old hardware that may bottleneck it? I'll try your suggestions when I get some sleep.

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-06, 22:40:

Is there actually a point to getting a network card thats that fast on old hardware that may bottleneck it?

I'd say no - unless you're running software off of network drives (rather than a local disk) you probably wouldn't see much difference between 100Mbps and 1Gbps. Last night I tried booting and running Windows 95 over the network using a 10Mbps ISA card (no hard drive at all) and even that slow NIC seemed to handle the job ok - didn't really seem any slower than the quantum bigfoot hard disk it was using previously.

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-06, 22:40:

[...]

Is startech just awful in general? I went through 2 of their CF readers almost as soon as I bought them, their USB 2.0 card has been really finicky for me, and now I find this out about my network card. Are there any good 1 gb ethernet cards that are fully compatible with Windows 98? Is there actually a point to getting a network card thats that fast on old hardware that may bottleneck it? I'll try your suggestions when I get some sleep.

Startech's business model seems to be selling old low-end designs for customers who need legacy compatibility. I'm not a huge fan, but my issues aren't with their build quality as such, just their bottom-scraping choice of what they put on there.

With Win98SE networking you're never going to get close to 1Gbps, but you can get well over 100Mbps with 1GbE cards. I'm generally an Intel and 3Com fan, but 3Com was dead before Gb reached the prosumer segment, so they only have 64b PCI GbE NICs like the 3C996. If you're using 32b PCI on Win9x, the Intel Pro/1000MT is the card to look for. Intel's site doesn't have Win9x drivers anymore (but does offer DOS drivers for even PCIe cards... go figure), you can find them here on http://www.vogonsdrivers.com/getfile.php?file … &menustate=34,0

There are supposed to be Win98SE drivers for the Pro/1000GT as well, but I'm having trouble finding them.

What motherboard are you using? Knowing its PCI revision might also help determine compatibility.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-07, 00:00:

There are supposed to be Win98SE drivers for the Pro/1000GT as well, but I'm having trouble finding them.

I have a few of those, will check if I have Win98 drivers. Know there are XP drivers (running one in the XP box) but not sure on the Win98 but will check..

over the lan like normal. if you dont have a nic in a computer than you can sneakernet.

USB, usually. It's lame but I hardly ever need to these days. All I want to play is there, all set up and ready to go, on the good machines I've made over the years, and whose software selections I've curated in the process. Other than that, it's a mere few-times-per-year dump of new things, at most.

That speaks to my habits, though - I tend to play the old machines individually in ~month-long phases, rather than regular usage of all at once.

But there's no doubt a retro networking setup is very convenient and time saving, and with the advent of RetroNAS there's very little holding anyone back from getting it done.

Re security: in discussion with RetroNAS's author ?a few weeks? ago (it's harder to recall time-context in these crazy days!) - pretty sure it was the thread here on Vogons, in fact - he mentioned that additional security features (e.g. firewall functionality) were among future plans. But also, as summarized by others here, the risks seem reasonably minimal already provided the basic precautions are taken. Personally, I prefer Pierre32's separate-NICs-and-subnets style of setup just to be sure. The other less-stringent ways are adequate, but do lean somewhat on ye olde mate Security-through-obscurity.

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow me to set an ip out of range. I did set the router to hand my Windows 98 PC (which for some reason only shows up as Sunrich Technology on the client list) and hooked my 98 PC up to my newer router. It did not register the change and thought it was still connected to my network (see confusion.png in attachments). I set windows 98 to set the IP manually, and while it seems to have registered that change on the connection info program I showed in that picture, now the windows 98 pc will not even show up in the client list on my router.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-07, 00:00:

What motherboard are you using? Knowing its PCI revision might also help determine compatibility.

I have included a CPU-Z report of my entire system.

As for the network cards you suggested, I do not have any PCI-X slots on my machine. Never actually used any PCI-X cards in my life, but apparently they are backwards compatible?

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-07, 19:54:

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow […]
Show full quote

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow me to set an ip out of range. I did set the router to hand my Windows 98 PC (which for some reason only shows up as Sunrich Technology on the client list) and hooked my 98 PC up to my newer router. It did not register the change and thought it was still connected to my network (see confusion.png in attachments). I set windows 98 to set the IP manually, and while it seems to have registered that change on the connection info program I showed in that picture, now the windows 98 pc will not even show up in the client list on my router.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-07, 00:00:

What motherboard are you using? Knowing its PCI revision might also help determine compatibility.

I have included a CPU-Z report of my entire system.

As for the network cards you suggested, I do not have any PCI-X slots on my machine. Never actually used any PCI-X cards in my life, but apparently they are backwards compatible?

Edit: removed suggested procedure, after belatedly noticing you had unintentionally conflicted two different IP ranges!

I used to use USB sticks and burn CDs.

Nowadays all my computers are connected to my home network, so I variously use SMB shares and FTP.

Sometimes I'll write a floppy disk, if I have to for drivers or something.

Or for the machines that have CF cards, I'll write files directly to the CF card if it's easily accessible while I'm building the machine.

I used to swear by USB sticks on anything I had, but last year I hit a wall when setting up a 386 and 486 system for the first time. I opted to create an FTP server on my main system and grab everything off the network that way. It is way, way faster and simpler. I use Total Commander on all my retro systems to connect to the server that way. Ideally, I'd prefer to set it up over NAS, however I haven't got one at the moment, might be my next model.
These days, I tend to disable USB entirely on anything pre Win2000/XP.

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-07, 19:54:

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow […]
Show full quote

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow me to set an ip out of range. I did set the router to hand my Windows 98 PC (which for some reason only shows up as Sunrich Technology on the client list) and hooked my 98 PC up to my newer router. It did not register the change and thought it was still connected to my network (see confusion.png in attachments). I set windows 98 to set the IP manually, and while it seems to have registered that change on the connection info program I showed in that picture, now the windows 98 pc will not even show up in the client list on my router.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-07, 00:00:

What motherboard are you using? Knowing its PCI revision might also help determine compatibility.

I have included a CPU-Z report of my entire system.

As for the network cards you suggested, I do not have any PCI-X slots on my machine. Never actually used any PCI-X cards in my life, but apparently they are backwards compatible?

What does your physical network setup look like? You won't be able to set separate subnets for things connected to the same LAN.

AeonG wrote on 2022-03-07, 19:54:

I tried the subnet thing. I might have misunderstood what you wanted me to do, but on the routers settings page it did not allow me to set an ip out of range. I did set the router to hand my Windows 98 PC (which for some reason only shows up as Sunrich Technology on the client list) and hooked my 98 PC up to my newer router. It did not register the change and thought it was still connected to my network (see confusion.png in attachments). I set windows 98 to set the IP manually, and while it seems to have registered that change on the connection info program I showed in that picture, now the windows 98 pc will not even show up in the client list on my router.

.
Not exactly...

If you're not up to speed with IP networks, I suggest a good primer (TCP/IP for Dummies is a good place to start, but there's lots of info online too).

Just to clarify the terms I was using:

- subnet. That's the network that your router is routing (connecting to the internet). Judging by the pic from your router GUI I suspect it is 192.168.1.0-192.168.1.255, which is generally written as 192.168.1.0/24. Note that the first IP (.0) is the network addres, the last IP (.255) the broadcast address, and somewhere in there (usually .1 or .254) is the router address aka Default Gateway.
- DHCP scope. The addresses within that range that the DHCP server hands out. That could be almost anything in that subnet, but usually you'll see something like 192.168.1.10 - 192.168.1.100.
- I was suggesting to manually set IP in the Win98 PC (so not in the router). That means any IP that is in the subnet that is not in the DHCP scope and is not network, broadcast or router address. So in my example 192.168.1.2 would be OK, as would 192.168.1.101. This may not be the same in your case, you need to check DHCP scope in the router to be sure.

In your manual setting, you have set an IP 192.168.2.2, which is in a different subnet (192.168.2.0/24). That won't work if your router is in 192.168.1.0/24 😮

Proposed steps:
- set the Win98 PC manually to 192.168.1.2 with subnet mask 255.255.255.0 and default gateway 192.168.1.1, with DNS servers 192.168.1.1 and 8.8.8.8
- in a DOS prompt, try the following commands, in this order. If they all work, you're 100% on internet. If not, the first command to fail tells you where the problem is.
PING 127.0.0.1 (should always give four replies, if not your whole networking stack is messed up)
PING 192.168.1.2 (should give four replies if you set the IP correctly)
PING 192.168.1.1 (this is the important one, if this gives replies you're OK with the current IP address, if not, the problem is between PC and router)
PING 8.8.8.8 (this is a Google IP on the internet, if this does not work but the last one did, there's some router setting not giving you internet access)
PING GOOGLE.COM (this tests DNS. If everything is set as listed and the previous steps worked, this one should too)

Note that it could start failing at PING 192.168.1.1 if there is another device on the network using the same 192.168.1.2 IP. I'm assuming it will be free, but you really should check first.

dionb wrote on 2022-03-07, 00:00:

What motherboard are you using? Knowing its PCI revision might also help determine compatibility.

I have included a CPU-Z report of my entire system.

Mainboard Manufacturer: IntelCorporation
Mainboard Name: D815EEA

So an Intel OEM motherboard in a Dell system with i815E chipset. That means PCI 2.2 and native 3.3V support. Whatever else is going wrong, it's not your network card getting the wrong voltage.

As for the network cards you suggested, I do not have any PCI-X slots on my machine. Never actually used any PCI-X cards in my life, but apparently they are backwards compatible?

It is, but I wouldn't recommend it. They're big, hot and cumbersome. The Intel cards I recommended are 32b PCI, not PCI-X. But tbh, now we know you have a PCI 2.2 system, the current card should be good enough. I suspect either driver issues (have you tried new Realtek drivers yet?) or Win98SE networking messed up. Or just a damaged/not properly inserted cable.

Sorry for the delayed response! Thank you so much dionb and everyone who patiently helped me! While I'm not sure why windows 98 will not automatically give me a correct IP address when the option to do so is selected, I followed Dions steps and everything is working now! My problem seemed to be not adding DNS information, which usually isn't a problem on newer version of Windows which I'm used to. I can use the internet (with very limited functionality), use FTP again, and I even got SAMBA working so now everything's even faster! Now I can go back to testing old software !