VOGONS


Reply 20 of 47, by dormcat

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flupke11 wrote on 2022-05-13, 10:38:

Is there really a reason, other than nostalgia, to choose SS7 over a Slot 1 (BX)-based board? I would not recommend newcomers in this hobby to hunt SS7-boards, given the current prices. Depending on what games they want to play, I'd go for a cheap LX-based board (good for DOS) or a P4-based AGP system (win98/early XP).

IMHO there are FIVE major eras of PC gaming:
1. Early DOS (320x200 w/o 3D)
2. Late DOS (VESA-compatible 640x480 and/or 3D acceleration)
3. Win9x
4. NT5 (Win2K/XP)
5. NT6+ (Vista and beyond)

Sure, there are even earlier pre-VGA era but let's put it aside for now.

Building a retro rig spanning two eras is not problematic at all, as those were actually faced by users and manufacturers when both software and hardware progressed. Building a rig spanning THREE eras, however, requires more specific (and rare) hardware. A good SS7 MB like GA-5AX with a late K6 CPU can deal with games of the first three eras quite nicely. There are methods of toggling cache on a Slot 1 system but it's trickier than most S7 / SS7 MB with this function readily available in BIOS.

For the record, IMHO the best options for eras 2-4 and 3-5 are "Tualatin-S 1.4GHz + a compatible MB with ISA slot" and "C2Q / C2X Kentsfield with ASRock 775i65G R3.0," respectively. I don't own and don't intend to own them as being the "best" systems spanning three eras easily push their prices high. With the same money one can build multiple rigs spanning two eras each.

Reply 21 of 47, by Cuttoon

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the3dfxdude wrote on 2022-05-13, 12:53:
Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-05-13, 00:10:

I see lots of ridiculous prices for old hardware on the bay (especially Super 7 motherboards, but many other things as well), but what does it actually mean? Are people actually paying this much, or is something else going on? There are a number of listings between two and three hundred dollars for this board, then there's this. Who would pay this much, and why would they do so?

I have one of these boards. I got it for free around 2000-2001. That listing is unbelievable -- it kind of makes me wonder if the seller is even legitimate. That is not a collectors item, and I don't see why it would ever be. Even if SS7 is considered somewhat rare (?) there are still so many options out there, some are better, the cost is not justifiable.

Not to sound too chauvinistic about it, but it would be much more unbelievable if located in Europe and with a price in €...
But $$$ and in the UAE? I mean, some those people have Dollars on tap, after all.

Also, "industrial" - obvious idiot bait. Some spoiled teenager will be very proud of that, eventually.

I like jumpers.

Reply 22 of 47, by bloodem

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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-13, 13:05:

A good SS7 MB like GA-5AX with a late K6 CPU can deal with games of the first three eras quite nicely. There are methods of toggling cache on a Slot 1 system but it's trickier than most S7 / SS7 MB with this function readily available in BIOS.

As mentioned earlier, toggling the cache on a slot 1 system is much easier than on SS7, as long as you go with a VIA C3 Ezra-T CPU (which can hit any conceivable speed point down to a very slow 386.
And as for Windows 98 (where you want all the speed you can get), it will be more or less equivalent to a Pentium 3 Katmai 600 MHz (so quite a bit faster than even the fastest SS7 builds). See this topic for more details: VIDEO BENCHMARKS (Original title: Settling the VIA C3 performance debate once and for all)

That being said, IMO, an Athlon XP "Thoroughbred" with a good VIA KT600 motherboard can offer by far the best "time machine" experience for early DOS, late DOS, Win98 and even a bit of early Windows XP. Not all games will work flawlessly on such a build, but at least 98% will.
Another less flexible but still good option (and more convenient in some ways, since it works great with modern PSUs) is an Athlon 64 build with a VIA K8T800 board.

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k

Reply 23 of 47, by Hoping

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One reason is simply this discussion, without anyone giving enough importance to the value of something, that something has no value.

And a rational value is not always applied to things.
I think it is not rational to pay the same for an article from twenty years ago as for a new one. Reason, lack of guarantees if you really want to use it.
Someone will give two years of guarantee to a motherboard from 25 years ago, or even less one?
As collector's items, the value is relative to what you are willing to pay, and there is always someone who does not have an objective limit. Money talks.
So if you don't think something has a specific value, don't give it to it or ignore it.

Reply 24 of 47, by Baoran

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Hoping wrote on 2022-05-13, 15:15:
One reason is simply this discussion, without anyone giving enough importance to the value of something, that something has no v […]
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One reason is simply this discussion, without anyone giving enough importance to the value of something, that something has no value.

And a rational value is not always applied to things.
I think it is not rational to pay the same for an article from twenty years ago as for a new one. Reason, lack of guarantees if you really want to use it.
Someone will give two years of guarantee to a motherboard from 25 years ago, or even less one?
As collector's items, the value is relative to what you are willing to pay, and there is always someone who does not have an objective limit. Money talks.
So if you don't think something has a specific value, don't give it to it or ignore it.

It is simple matter of supply and demand, right? if something that people want is rare the price goes up.

Reply 26 of 47, by dormcat

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bloodem wrote on 2022-05-13, 14:48:

That being said, IMO, an Athlon XP "Thoroughbred" with a good VIA KT600 motherboard can offer by far the best "time machine" experience for early DOS, late DOS, Win98 and even a bit of early Windows XP. Not all games will work flawlessly on such a build, but at least 98% will.

I've never seen any VIA KT600 motherboard with ISA port -- something you'd like for an ISA sound card. I'd just stick with Socket 370 for this purpose.

bloodem wrote on 2022-05-13, 14:48:

Another less flexible but still good option (and more convenient in some ways, since it works great with modern PSUs) is an Athlon 64 build with a VIA K8T800 board.

Have a similar system with lower spec: Sempron 3100+ (90nm Palermo) with Asus K8V-MX. My main Win98SE rig. It's capable to run WinXP but I've got another rig for WinXP games.

To sum it up: it would be more economical and less compromising with multiple rigs, focused on two or even just one time period.

Reply 27 of 47, by AlexZ

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Valuation is very subjective. I consider 86-early Pentium rigs of low value due to very limited time coverage and existence of good emulators that can replace them. But if someone is willing to pay those high asking prices on eBay then obviously it must have that value to them.

I consider PIII on 440BX most valuable, followed by Athlon 64/XP/P4 as we will never have full speed emulators for those. Whatever runs on Windows XP should run on Windows 7 and one can use relatively modern hardware for that.

Pentium III 900E, ECS P6BXT-A+, 384MB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 128MB, Voodoo 2 12MB, 80GB HDD, Yamaha SM718 ISA, 19" AOC 9GlrA
Athlon 64 3400+, MSI K8T Neo V, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT 256MB, 250GB HDD, Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 29 of 47, by Gmlb256

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AlexZ wrote on 2022-05-13, 16:39:

Valuation is very subjective.

Yep, it depends of a user's first experience with a computer. I'm not nostalgic about 486 or older regarding PCs.

I consider 86-early Pentium rigs of low value due to very limited time coverage and existence of good emulators that can replace them. But if someone is willing to pay those high asking prices on eBay then obviously it must have that value to them.

They are much more versatile for dealing with 1987-1998 (or up to 1999-2000 if using a K6-2/III(+) CPU) games with the right combination of software and components. Not a limited time coverage if you ask me.

Reply 30 of 47, by zapbuzz

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My Abit vp6 motherboard was expensive for me $320 AU just for the motherboard about 5 years ago with new caps but I saw another listing for $920 AU from russia about 2 years ago without cpu's and ram but did have the manual.
There was a broken one floating around for about $250.
But the price can be negoiated sometimes by messaging the seller asking if an offer can be made on eBay. - i saved $200 that way.
I doubt i'll ever get another p3 like this the price did include cpu's and ram but i replaced them with brand new old stock and the gold orb coolers whoah!

Last edited by zapbuzz on 2022-05-13, 17:38. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 31 of 47, by Hoping

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Baoran wrote on 2022-05-13, 15:48:

It is simple matter of supply and demand, right? if something that people want is rare the price goes up.

Yes, the law of supply and demand prevails in many things, and in this and other cases it depends on how much value the buyer gives it, not the seller.
If you are a collector, then you pay anything because you like it and the fact of having the object is your goal.
If you are a user, you pay what interests you because you want to use it.
That's how I see it.
I don't know exactly what is special about the motherboard mentioned here, but it is possible that outside of collecting there are alternatives.
I'm not trying to say that the motherboard is bad, on the contrary, I suppose it will be good.

Reply 32 of 47, by AlexZ

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Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-05-13, 17:16:

Yep, it depends of a user's first experience with a computer. I'm not nostalgic about 486 or older regarding PCs.

My first PC was 386SX/33, quickly upgraded to 386DX/40, I skipped 486 and upgraded to Pentium 200 MMX. Then K6-2 followed. I don't care about those at all. I never had a PIII or Athlon 64. In my case its about what I didn't have rather than re-building an old PC.

Pentium III 900E, ECS P6BXT-A+, 384MB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce FX 5600 128MB, Voodoo 2 12MB, 80GB HDD, Yamaha SM718 ISA, 19" AOC 9GlrA
Athlon 64 3400+, MSI K8T Neo V, 1GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7600GT 256MB, 250GB HDD, Sound Blaster Audigy 2 ZS

Reply 33 of 47, by Gmlb256

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AlexZ wrote on 2022-05-13, 18:10:
Gmlb256 wrote on 2022-05-13, 17:16:

Yep, it depends of a user's first experience with a computer. I'm not nostalgic about 486 or older regarding PCs.

My first PC was 386SX/33, quickly upgraded to 386DX/40, I skipped 486 and upgraded to Pentium 200 MMX. Then K6-2 followed. I don't care about those at all. I never had a PIII or Athlon 64. In my case its about what I didn't have rather than re-building an old PC.

I respect your opinion about not caring about these old platforms at all.

I have a PIII-750 computer for the same reason like yours but I barely use it as I'm mostly focused with DOS (and Windows 9x to some extent) which is a different beast compared to what is used with modern computers.

Reply 34 of 47, by bloodem

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dormcat wrote on 2022-05-13, 16:12:

I've never seen any VIA KT600 motherboard with ISA port -- something you'd like for an ISA sound card. I'd just stick with Socket 370 for this purpose.

You don't need an ISA slot, you only need a Yamaha YMF7x4 PCI card, which is almost as compatible as an ISA card on (good) KT600 boards. 😀

2 x PGA132 / 5 x Socket 3 / 9 x Socket 7 / 12 x SS7 / 1 x Socket 8 / 14 x Slot 1 / 5 x Slot A
5 x Socket 370 / 8 x Socket A / 2 x Socket 478 / 2 x Socket 754 / 3 x Socket 939 / 7 x LGA775 / 1 x LGA1155
Current rig: Ryzen 5 3600X
Backup rig: Core i7 7700k

Reply 35 of 47, by bbking67

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I always laugh when i see these kind of asking prices. The "real" data is what they actually sold for... and a quick search of completed auctions shows that they have sold for $180-$250. Still fairly high in my opinion, but far from $800.

I used to deal with a guy that always asked the same as eBay "asking" prices... but there are always tons of incredibly high and unrealistic asking prices for anything. Now if ebay went back to its roots as a true auction site (the glory days before "buy it now ruined it), you'd get a true market price.

I think some products are expensive because there are legacy systems that might depend on them and buying replacements at any cost is worth it for those businesses. I can remember buying legacy networking gear on ebay to support old equipment in heritage buildings that we couldnt retrofit due to asbestos. We paid whatever it cost to keep it going and someone made a small fortune selling otherwise junk obsolete equipment.

Reply 36 of 47, by Zeerex

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I know there are a ton of SS7 boards out there, but the only two I know the names of from the top of my head: P5A and GA-5AX. Let’s be real on lesser known boards prices are much more reasonable.

BTW I’m one of those that skipped K6 entirely somehow. Only recently discovered a few years back reading Vogons after all the recommendations. They weren’t wrong, I love this platform. It’s retro perfection in my opinion for the days I’m most nostalgic for (96-99) . Also I’m guilty of purchasing a GA-5AX from Greece a couple years ago for $125 I think so I helped establish the floor on the prices today somewhat. Sorry!

Last edited by Zeerex on 2022-05-14, 01:19. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 38 of 47, by dormcat

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Zeerex wrote on 2022-05-14, 00:15:

I know there are a ton of SS7 boards out there, but the only two I know the names of from the top of my head: P5A and GA-5AX. Let’s be real on lesser known boards prices are much more reasonable.

People looking for an SS7 MB instead of regular S7 MB mostly for the following two reasons that S7 MB don't have:

  • 100MHz FSB
  • One AGP slot

And most people would like to have these as bonuses:

  • ATX or mATX power socket and form factor so modern PSU and chassis can be used without modding
  • At least one free ISA and two free PCI slots for sound, network, disk controller, or modem cards
  • Two native USB ports
  • BIOS, driver, and manuals readily available

With those requirements in mind, only Asus P5A, Gigabyte GA-5AX, and MSI MS-5169 remain in the list, with GA-5AX rev. 5.2 being the newest of the three. Other companies on the list are either out of business or have changed their business directions away from MB. Therefore it's only natural for GA-5AX being sought after and expensive.

Reply 39 of 47, by keenerb

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What keeps my P5BV3+ off the "most wanted" list?

https://theretroweb.com/hardware/motherboards/dfi-p5bv3-plus

Supports 100MHZ fsb, K6-III+, has agp slot, three isa, two USB, etc. etc.

I'm just sort of curious what makes a "top dog" SS& board at this point...