VOGONS


First post, by Gabriel-LG

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Recently I received a cute Philips P2230, 286 12MHz, 1MB, CGA. Complete with monitor, mouse and keyboard.

It had a depleted Dallas RTC, and as an effect it could not boot past the BIOS.

Since the RTC was not socketed, I desoldered it and placed a socket in the mainboard.
I did not have time to do the battery mod on the RTC just yet so I took the board home again for some testing.

First I wanted to check if the RTC and mainboard had survived (the desoldering was quite traumatic).
So I started the PC with the RTC in place. It worked, just as it did before (phfeww).

In preparation of the battery mod, I wanted to know what to expect if RTC would not survive surgery.
So I removed the RTC and started the PC. I think it gave output on the monitor, although I am not sure because I was quite distracted by the smell of smoke 😦

Upon inspection, the tantalum capacitor over the -12V had burned out. I had a similar capacitor, only not SMD like the original, so I improvised a temporary fix while ordering new capacitors.
With the capacitor replaced and the RTC placed back, the machine is working.
Later on, the battery mod was successful also.

It just keeps nagging me, that I cannot think of any reason why the -12V capacitor would burn out if the RTC is not present.

  • The capacitor was on the other side of the board, so it could not have been damaged by heat.
  • The RTC does not use negative voltages (so not interaction with -12V)
  • The BIOS does not usually control the power stages in machines of this era.

My new capacitors are in now, and I am tempted to repeat my experiment of running without RTC. But I am afraid it will kill something if the tantalum burns out again.

Does anyone here have a clue as to why the -12V tantalum would burn out if the RTC is not present? Or have any experience in running a PC without having the RTC installed?
If not, would it be safe to repeat the experiment to rule out coincidence?

Reply 2 of 6, by mkarcher

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
maxtherabbit wrote on 2022-09-02, 13:21:

It was a coincidence. -12V tantalums love to explode, it's normal

Fully agree on that. Exploding is the usual failure mode of worn out tantalum caps. On hardware older than 1995, I would not start to search for a root cause of exploding tantalums until the replacement explodes again. The only thing you might want to do before installing the replacement cap: Take a meter and check that -12V is approximately correct. You can safely turn on a computer even when caps on the power rails are missing. -15V or "more" indicates a defective power supply that will fry your replacement cap as well.

The same applies to +12V tantalums. It's just 12V anyway. Try it again. The RTC is not connected to -12V in any way on any board I have ever seen.

Reply 3 of 6, by TheMobRules

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I agree with both posts above about the tantalums in the 12V lines. My speculation is that the 16V rating for those caps is not enough to withstand voltage spikes when something goes wrong. 25V would be a much safer option for replacement I think.

Regarding the RTC, none of my motherboards POST or even display anything on the screen if the Dallas chip is not present.

Reply 4 of 6, by Gabriel-LG

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

Thanks for your replies. It gave me the courage to test again without the RTC installed. This time the PC displayed the video bios, followed by a beep code and then reboot, but no smoke 😀
The tantalum caps used in this machine are all rated 20V btw, and I know that 16V tantalums are not sufficient to smooth a 12V supplies.

Reply 5 of 6, by mrping

User metadata
Rank Newbie
Rank
Newbie

If interested in selling the machine, please mail me on daniel.lilienberg (at) gmail.com

Gabriel-LG wrote on 2022-09-04, 19:02:

Thanks for your replies. It gave me the courage to test again without the RTC installed. This time the PC displayed the video bios, followed by a beep code and then reboot, but no smoke 😀
The tantalum caps used in this machine are all rated 20V btw, and I know that 16V tantalums are not sufficient to smooth a 12V supplies.

Reply 6 of 6, by mkarcher

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Gabriel-LG wrote on 2022-09-04, 19:02:

It gave me the courage to test again without the RTC installed. This time the PC displayed the video bios, followed by a beep code and then reboot, but no smoke 😀

Failure to boot, with a clear indication using beep codes is expect behaviour when the RTC is missing or broken. So everything seems to be fine with your computer. A 286-class machine is unable to access extended memory (>1MB) unless the RTC is working (the reason is complicated). So the BIOS will fail at the point it wants to test the extended memory (or even earlier). A lot of 286 BIOSes do a quick RTC check quite early in the boot sequence. MS-DOS HIMEM.SYS uses a very hacky speed-up trick that doesn't depend on the RTC, but this won't save you from the non-booting PC. DR-DOS HIDOS.SYS doesn't do so, and is considerably slower on 286-class computers.