2mg wrote on 2022-12-05, 14:07:

All Smithfield processors were made of two 90 nm Prescott cores, next to each other on a single die with 1 MB of Level 2 (L2) ca […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-12-05, 07:47:

Gallatin L3 didn't help at all for gaming or cache dependent tasks, it was slow cache and unable to be used in the same manner that L2 cache is. Gallatin was roughly 10-20% faster than Northwood due to the L3 cache and had it been fast L2 that performance increase would have been larger.

CM stopped at 3.6 because Core2 had been released so Intel dropped all Pentium4 lines, its capable of hitting 4.3 Ghz on Air/AIO with little issue ..Presshot would have extreme stability issues past 4Ghz due to heat without exotic cooling of some form. There are records of the 661 hitting 4.5Ghz stable on HWbot, there are also crazy people who have a Presshot EE at 4.4Ghz they also needed a nuclear reactor to power it and HVAC for the room it was running in. (Likey used some exotic cooling like LN2 or chiller for it)

Pressler and Smithfield are two dies glued together, Intel never produced multicore Pentium4 CPUs. Multicore didn't happen till Core2 CPUs.

All Smithfield processors were made of two 90 nm Prescott cores, next to each other on a single die with 1 MB of Level 2 (L2) cache per core.
Presler introduced the 'multi-chip module, or MCM, which consisted of two single-core dies placed next to each other on the same substrate package.
There was this slight difference, just mentioning it since I saw it on Wiki, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things anyway.
Extreme Editions had more tech things going for them (XE versions of Smith/Press).

So in some order I got from this:
1. Pentium D 965 in "single core mode" = 65mm Presscot-2m (a cooler Press-2m at 3.73Ghz), ability to run "dual core mode" for WinXP (but hot)
2. CedarMill 661 (smartest choice due to lower thermals/TDP + higher OC potential)
3. 2m 3.73 EE Presshot (burn baby burn, but faster than CM661 at stock)

Then it all boils down to availability, price, and mobo CPU support (965 works with like 1 or maybe 2 Intel only chipsets).

Correct?

Availability of any of these will be limited but of the three the 661 will be easiest to get and cheapest, the EE editions can be very expensive with the Fire starter 2m being exceptionally painful to buy.
The 965 should work in any late 775 Pentium4 motherboard that has a VRM that can handle its power draw.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-12-05, 16:03:

Availability of any of these will be limited but of the three the 661 will be easiest to get and cheapest, the EE editions can be very expensive with the Fire starter 2m being exceptionally painful to buy.
The 965 should work in any late 775 Pentium4 motherboard that has a VRM that can handle its power draw.

775dual-880pro does only 955, which is okay.
PenD 960 if I really go PenD 1-core route if I can't get 955.
Does all Cedars.

One question tho, it states that Preslers are supported but:

Does it mean both 1.20 BIOS + Presler sticker are needed, or does Presler sticker imply it's already flashed for Preslers?

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-12-05, 15:59:

I actually don't get why they went with the slower L3 but I suspect its because Gallatin was a Xeon variant of the P4 ported to the consumer space to give them some breathing room to get Presshot out, in any case Gallatin never saw use outside of Extreme edition CPUs.

Well, I guess, because that was the way to go "over the top" for the "consumer" [enthusiast] market at that time. They didn't have the Prescott, thus nothing wit more L2 cache. The Gallatin Xeon already existed, just needed another package. And +10-15% IMO is a very nice nudge for the Northwood, which actually outshined Prescott on a clock-for-clock basis.

Yep, while pricing was garbage, improvements by just adding large cache were decent. Northwood fast L2 cache doubling over Willamette barely topped at 10% in games.

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)?

Also, top 5 775 coolers, and top 5 478?

Any way to retrofit a more modern cooler ala 212 EVO (random example) to 775 or 478?

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-12-05, 15:59:

Yup slow as shit L3 cache, it should have been on the order of 30% or more uplift over Northwood but Intel cut corners and stuck it with 512kb of L2 instead of 2Mb. 15% uplift over Northwood really isn't that impressive when looking at actual real world numbers when Northwood performed terribly out of the gate. However you could clock the snot out of Gallatin due to the unlocked multi to make up for the deficit if you have the cooler that can handle the ~110watt TDP.

I actually don't get why they went with the slower L3 but I suspect its because Gallatin was a Xeon variant of the P4 ported to the consumer space to give them some breathing room to get Presshot out, in any case Gallatin never saw use outside of Extreme edition CPUs.

One other point to note about Gallatin .. it didn't have SSE3 or x64.

Not sure how L3 is supposed to be slow on Gallatin (it's clocked as fast as core is FYI), but relative ratios of bandwidth (comparing L2 to L3 to DRAM), are quite similar to L3:L4:DRAM ratios on 5775C :

You can't just quadruple L2 size because "it can fit" on your newer node, die cost will simply be too high. Intel didn't "cut corners" with Northwood, they simply "fixed" what was wrong with Willamette, and added 256kB more L2 because of newer node margins.
Gallatin/Prestonia cores were designed for server use ONLY. They were never meant to be used in todays i5- or i7-range of products.
Only after Athlon64 came along, we got first Pentium 4 Extreme's.

ALL Pentium 4 Extreme Edition CPUs DO NOT have unlocked multipliers - and this is the case for all platforms they can be bought for. First officially unlocked (up and down) Netburst Intel's CPU is Pentium Extreme Edition 840. I don't count prototypes or ES'es here, because they aren't meant to be sold.

Lastly, you can't "disable" one of the dies of Pentium Ds in 90% of LGA 775 MBs (and only Intel manufactured ones, usually have this option [if they support multicore CPUs]). At best you can soft-disable either one from OS (msconfig/Advanced/CPU Processors selector).
But this doesn't power off the die, as OS simply ignores it.

agent_x007 wrote on 2022-12-09, 22:15:

Lastly, you can't "disable" one of the dies of Pentium Ds in 90% of LGA 775 MBs (and only Intel manufactured ones, usually have this option [if they support multicore CPUs]). At best you can soft-disable either one from OS (msconfig/Advanced/CPU Processors selector).
But this doesn't power off the die, as OS simply ignores it.

Well, as long as W98 will boot and work without issues. Tho, if the 2nd core is operative, but W98 won't use it at all, do I still get a cooler Pentium D aka "1 core Cedar Mill 65nm"?

2mg wrote on 2022-12-05, 18:08:

One question tho, it states that Preslers are supported but:
pres.JPG

Does it mean both 1.20 BIOS + Presler sticker are needed, or does Presler sticker imply it's already flashed for Preslers?

Yesterday I bought Pentium D 945 3.4Ghz for 2$ to test it in my 775Dual-880Pro motherboard without Presler sticker. It works fine! In Windows 98SE I get more scores in 3DMark 99 and 3DMark 2000 than with my Pentium 4 541 3.2 Ghz.
Also, it seems that in Windows 98 Pentium D Presler runs cooler than Pentium 4 Prescott. HWiNFO shows 2 cores present but only 1 core is running on full speed, second core is in idle mode.

That may vary due to revision. Early Cedar Mill/Presler steppings didn't had all energy saving features active.

Oh, I forget to describe my build's specs, it may be helpful for someone:
ASRock 775Dual-880Pro Revision 1.04 WITHOUT PRESLER STICKER, BIOS version 1.70
Pentium D 945 SL9QQ (stepping D0, 95W TDP) with Intel D34017-002 heatsink with copper core
Kingston DDR 400 512 MB x2 in dual channel mode
ATI Radeon 9600 128 MB
Maxtor 40 Gb IDE HDD
Windows 98SE
All works nicely. Little faster and cooler than Prescott based system.

Kruton 9000 wrote on 2023-01-18, 13:59:

Yesterday I bought Pentium D 945 3.4Ghz for 2$ to test it in my 775Dual-880Pro motherboard without Presler sticker. It works fine!
Also, it seems that in Windows 98 Pentium D Presler runs cooler than Pentium 4 Prescott.

Thanks for info!

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-01-18, 15:05:

That may vary due to revision. Early Cedar Mill/Presler steppings didn't had all energy saving features active.

In that W98 scenario where the second core isn't utilized but no power savings exist, does it draw the same power like a used core would?

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

- fits only early Core2 CPUs (no point in 775 NetBurst P4), as these 775+AGP mobos weren't produced for a long time

I disagree with this point. LGA775 Netburst chips are generally faster and use less power than socket 478 variants. For example, the most common 3GHz socket 478 P4 seems to be the 800MHz fsb Prescott. Not all socket 478 motherboards support it, due to the 800MHz FSB and hyper threading. And even if you have the right chipset, compatibility is not assured - I've seen socket 478 intel 865 OEM machines that do not support this chip. Most intel i865 boards should support this chip (Abit, Asus, Gigabyte, MSI, etc), but I've noticed some lower end boards have issues with it - mainly due to it's 90w TDP and 100+W heat dissipation or lack of proper bios support.

It's LGA775 equivalent is the P4 530, but the most common models nowadays seem to be the 631 and 641, witch if I'm not mistaking are better binned OEM chips witch use less power and do not get as hot. The're also Ceddar Mill core, with twice the L2 cache and 64 bit support (for all that's worth). TDP for these chips seems to be 84 or 90W (depending on where you look) but all the 631 chips I have run significantly cooler then the socket 478 3GHz prescott. Same for the p4 530 and 531.

LGA775 also has much better cooler support. You can still buy new CPU coolers that support LGA 775 - Scythe and Thermalright are two manufacturers that supported LGA775 longer then others - the Thermalright Le Grande Macho for example is a MASSIVE 280w cooler you can still buy today that supports LGA775, and it can handle a Pentium 4 640 without active cooling. The latest cooler I know of that supported socket 478 is the Tuniq Tower, witch is no longer sold.

For these reasons I prefer using LGA775 netburst machines whenever possible. Intel i865 LGA775 boards with AGP are not very hard to find, have excelent windows 98 driver support and compatibility and work with Netburst chips up to 3.73GHz, making for very, very fast win9x machines. A good example of one such board is the ABIT AS8-V, but there's lots of good boards out there, based on intel i865, VIA PT880 or SiS chipsets.

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

- unknown DOS audio support (can someone confirm?)

For on board audio, yeah, dos support is mostly non existant, although there are exceptions. I have managed to get DOS games to run fine on Yamaha DS-XG boards (YMF724/744) on my Abit AS8-V and a Foxconn 865G7MF.

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

- possibly lacks some W98 drivers (can someone confirm?)

All boards I tested have win9x drivers.

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

- these mobos seem rare, as SATA/DDR/PCIE became more common quickly

Not really. In my part of the world AGP LGA775 boards are quite common.

2mg wrote on 2022-10-04, 16:53:

- PCI GPU (can they match AGP counterparts?) OR a "hacked" PCI-E GPU (probable issues)

There is no need to "hack" PCI-E GPUs. I've managed to run PCI-E GPUs (geforce 6600, 6800, Radeon x800) on some PCI-E motherboards under windows 98 without complications (specifically intel i915/925 and VIA boards).

I personally see no point to Core 2 Duo windows 98 builds. The CPUs are way to fast, and I've encountered several odd issues in several games running win98se on core 2 machines - same story for AMD alternatives (I have an odd Gigabyte socket AM2 board with AGP - the GA-MF3), although I'm sure some people will contradict me on this. In my opinion a 2.6GHz P4 or athlon XP 2600+ are more then enough for an overkill win98 machine.

2mg wrote on 2022-12-07, 13:38:

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)? […]
Show full quote

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)?

pres.JPG

Also, top 5 775 coolers, and top 5 478?

Any way to retrofit a more modern cooler ala 212 EVO (random example) to 775 or 478?

Top coolers : (in photo) , I use to use a Zalman 9700 worked on 775 and 478 , a 9500 is also acceptable , if you want more cooling be sure to sand down the copper from cpu & cooler , (or) delid them - change paste on die.

P.S. Some older Dell bios'es let you disable multicore function from bios , so no problems there (os will see 1 core), only issue is that you wont be able to do much O.C. on dell. (some soft oc from soft maybe) but mostly 0 or less from bios.

Socket3 wrote on 2023-02-14, 15:41:

I personally see no point to Core 2 Duo windows 98 builds. The CPUs are way to fast, and I've encountered several odd issues in several games running win98se on core 2 machines - same story for AMD alternatives (I have an odd Gigabyte socket AM2 board with AGP - the GA-MF3), although I'm sure some people will contradict me on this. In my opinion a 2.6GHz P4 or athlon XP 2600+ are more then enough for an overkill win98 machine.

No need for a C2D CPU, just a 775 P4 (or Pentium D) seems like "478 refresh", trick is just if you want AGP or PCIe mobo (or these rare-ish combos), otherwise it's (if it has proper drivers too) a safer choice since the hardware ain't as old as 478. Caps might be another story.

Socket3 wrote on 2023-02-14, 15:41:

LGA775 also has much better cooler support. You can still buy new CPU coolers that support LGA 775 - Scythe and Thermalright are two manufacturers that supported LGA775 longer then others - the Thermalright Le Grande Macho for example is a MASSIVE 280w cooler you can still buy today that supports LGA775, and it can handle a Pentium 4 640 without active cooling. The latest cooler I know of that supported socket 478 is the Tuniq Tower, witch is no longer sold.

You do have to be a little careful with that, some coolers that supported 775 at release and for a number of years, may have dropped the hardware for 775 from currently sold versions. Specs pages on sales sites can be out of date with respect to this also, and still list 775 support when it's gone. Some of the top tier brands that have done this will still supply the hardware on request, some others you're scavenging used or unused ones from earlier buyers or rigging your own. (This also applies to earlier AMD support on some coolers, the strap clip retention mech may no longer be supplied, but may still fit by using mounting holes.)

ediflorianUS wrote on 2023-02-14, 16:02:

2mg wrote on 2022-12-07, 13:38:

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)? […]
Show full quote

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)?

pres.JPG

Also, top 5 775 coolers, and top 5 478?

Any way to retrofit a more modern cooler ala 212 EVO (random example) to 775 or 478?

Top coolers : (in photo) , I use to use a Zalman 9700 worked on 775 and 478 , a 9500 is also acceptable , if you want more cooling be sure to sand down the copper from cpu & cooler , (or) delid them - change paste on die.

P.S. Some older Dell bios'es let you disable multicore function from bios , so no problems there (os will see 1 core), only issue is that you wont be able to do much O.C. on dell. (some soft oc from soft maybe) but mostly 0 or less from bios.

tuniq tower 120 is the best socket 478 cooler I own.

Along with my Soyo P4 ISA build I posted earlier in the thread I do have this Asus 775 e5200 build with a ATI x850 XT PE which I run WIN98SE on. Not installed XP on it yet mind.

I run Audigy 2 and Vortex 2 for sound. I was thinking of doing a 2nd SSD with a Win98 Install for my 6800GT. I could then swap between the X850 and the 6800GT

My Socket 775 Windowx 98SE Build can be seen here: https://retronautics.h2o.gen.tr/home/computer … .p_4o7kUBgnLWEH

Socket3 wrote on 2023-02-14, 19:39:

ediflorianUS wrote on 2023-02-14, 16:02:

2mg wrote on 2022-12-07, 13:38:

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)? […]
Show full quote

Bump for this explanation (is it both, or either/or)?

pres.JPG

Also, top 5 775 coolers, and top 5 478?

Any way to retrofit a more modern cooler ala 212 EVO (random example) to 775 or 478?

Top coolers : (in photo) , I use to use a Zalman 9700 worked on 775 and 478 , a 9500 is also acceptable , if you want more cooling be sure to sand down the copper from cpu & cooler , (or) delid them - change paste on die.

P.S. Some older Dell bios'es let you disable multicore function from bios , so no problems there (os will see 1 core), only issue is that you wont be able to do much O.C. on dell. (some soft oc from soft maybe) but mostly 0 or less from bios.

tuniq tower 120 is the best socket 478 cooler I own.

Tuniq.jpg

if it's not in desktop,horizontal, and it's in tower , I think it will brake /bend the board , I had some issues with 9700 also but its better, better airflow slimmer and more weight equilibrated.

. I could then swap between the X850 and the 6800GT ? no need to change hdd for that just drivers. You can keep ATi & Nvidia files should not harm on win98 anyway.

Slight necro, but can someone ELI5 how did pre-C2D Intels with 2 "cpus glued together" actually handle FSB?
Did they share it, aka could one "core"choke the other, or was is 1/2 FSB speed split per "core"?