Personally i like to stick with ATX systems. New atx power supplies are easier to get than AT stuff.

zapbuzz wrote on 2022-10-21, 11:18:

Personally i like to stick with ATX systems. New atx power supplies are easier to get than AT stuff.

This will change soon, maybe.
ATX might be going to change drastically in the next years to come.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX#ATX12VO

Let's just think of the debates about the turnaround in energy policy..
It's also because the PC's power consumption is going to be insanely high.

Some people even debate about introducing DC as the mains power..

https://www.electricalindustry.ca/latest-news … -may-replace-ac

Then, ATX and AT PSUs will be obsolete altogether.

I believe, the only long term solution is to either restore old PSUs (and use step converters if necessary) or modify whatever is the current standard.

Anyway, the current ATX PSUs are still plenty available.
Most of these will maybe even outlive us, so planning ahead isn't necessarily, maybe.
Who knows whether or not we will made the next 5 or 10 years, anyway?

Edit: Beware, there are ATX 1.x and ATX 2.0 PSUs (and 3.0 but that's not sobrelevant to us retro people).
The 1.x PSUs are strong on the 5v, 3.3v lines.
The 2.0 PSUs are strong on the 12v lines.

So hording old ATX motherboards and just use whatever new ATX PSU crosses our way isn't ideal anymore.
We reached a point in spacetime were we must start to collect/restore ATX 1.x PSUs for our Pre-Pentium IV/AMD Athlon PCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATX#Interchanging_PSUs

Sticking to the range of PCs which could be fully comprehended, and not requiring man-years to reproduce using original components or alternative technologies (FPGA/CPLD/etc), to tinker with the fine details of implementation, or to make new expansion boards.
Thus the upper limit would be around (pre-?)MMX Pentium, and the lower limit would be 286 as the minimum required to smoothly run classic VGA adventure games - Kyrandia, Monkey Island 2, i.e. wonderful Sierra/Westwood stuff.

vstrakh wrote on 2022-10-21, 13:44:

Sticking to the range of PCs which could be fully comprehended, and not requiring man-years to reproduce using original components or alternative technologies (FPGA/CPLD/etc), to tinker with the fine details of implementation, or to make new expansion boards.
Thus the upper limit would be around (pre-?)MMX Pentium, and the lower limit would be 286 as the minimum required to smoothly run classic VGA adventure games - Kyrandia, Monkey Island 2, i.e. wonderful Sierra/Westwood stuff.

An all 16-Bit Turbo XT implementation with Static RAM (no refresher circuit on motherboard) and a NEC V30 or 80186 could do, as well.
At 16 MHz, it will run those low-resolution games just fine really.

I say this not to annoy all of you (I like the 80286!), but because PC/XT platform a bit simpler to implement with discreet parts.
The V30 has less pins than the 80286, has a GPLed BIOS, needs no quality chipset for support..
It's so simple it can even be emulated on a 286 PC!

Of course, Windows 3.1 needs an 80286 or higher CPU (Windows 3.0 runs but is boring, near useless when it comes to software support) ..
So an adapter board would be required for an XT or pseudo-AT motherboard (how about calling it E.T. platform? Enhanced Technology?)..

Like the Inboard/386 in case of the 80386.
This board had patches for Windows 3.x, to compensate for the XT platform's shortcoming.

https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/run … d-386-pc.50051/

Or maybe, a simple 80286 interface can be assembled?
If just the NEC/8086 CPU itself is being substituteed by an 80286?
I mean, just wiring up an adapter, add some logic, limit adresses to 20 or 21 bit (HMA but no XMS)..

So the 80286 acts like an advanced 8086?
That should allow for 16-Bit Protected Mode.
Himem.sys (needed for Windows 3.1) will run, as long as it can access HMA (1024KB+64KB-16B).
A single 64 KB SRAM chip attached to the 80286 board can provide this feature.

Edit: My apologies for being too chatty. Just noticed. 😅
I'll stay in the background a little bit longer now.

vstrakh wrote on 2022-10-21, 13:44:

Kyrandia, Monkey Island 2, i.e. wonderful Sierra/Westwood stuff.

I always think of Westwood as the Command & Conquer developers, keep forgetting they had their hand in a number of classic RPGs.

Shponglefan wrote on 2022-10-25, 01:17:

vstrakh wrote on 2022-10-21, 13:44:

Kyrandia, Monkey Island 2, i.e. wonderful Sierra/Westwood stuff.

I always think of Westwood as the Command & Conquer developers, keep forgetting they had their hand in a number of classic RPGs.

There's pre Rick Parks and post Rick Parks, I loved Westwood in both iterations but the two are so different that it's easiest for me to compartmentalise it that way. Frank Klepacki is a constant throughout though 😀

I'm open to everything that looks interesting and seems to involve a lot of tinkering for relaxation purposes.

I started off with building a killer Tualatin PC but that was a few years ago. At the moment, I'm trying to build a late XP/early Win7 machine with triple SLI on an nForce chipset. So that's pretty much the range at the moment.

But I also collect interesting handhelds, got a Tungsten E and an Axim X51v PDA which can be equipped with VGA out, just need to find the breakout cable somewhere...

And then of course there's console modding. PlayStation 2/3, Xbox 360, OG Xbox...there's so much cool stuff you can do. I equipped my PS2 with a 2TB HDD, replaced the TOKIN caps on my FAT PS3 (very hard, very satisfying) and with Insignia on the horizon we will soon get Xbox Live for the original Xbox back.

I think I'll never run out of interesting hardware to play around with. Heck, I even built Android from source for the phone I currently use as my daily driver and incorporated some useful patches in the process...

There's only one rule for me: It has to be cheap and/or broken. After all, it's just electronics and I don't want to spend too much money for it. This mostly rules out extremely old or extremely new hardware.

So no 486 or a fancy Ryzen for me, but the 486 would be too slow to be entertaining anyway...

schmatzler wrote on 2022-10-25, 21:13:

I'm open to everything that looks interesting and seems to involve a lot of tinkering for relaxation purposes. […]
Show full quote

I'm open to everything that looks interesting and seems to involve a lot of tinkering for relaxation purposes.

I started off with building a killer Tualatin PC but that was a few years ago. At the moment, I'm trying to build a late XP/early Win7 machine with triple SLI on an nForce chipset. So that's pretty much the range at the moment.

But I also collect interesting handhelds, got a Tungsten E and an Axim X51v PDA which can be equipped with VGA out, just need to find the breakout cable somewhere...

And then of course there's console modding. PlayStation 2/3, Xbox 360, OG Xbox...there's so much cool stuff you can do. I equipped my PS2 with a 2TB HDD, replaced the TOKIN caps on my FAT PS3 (very hard, very satisfying) and with Insignia on the horizon we will soon get Xbox Live for the original Xbox back.

I think I'll never run out of interesting hardware to play around with. Heck, I even built Android from source for the phone I currently use as my daily driver and incorporated some useful patches in the process...

There's only one rule for me: It has to be cheap and/or broken. After all, it's just electronics and I don't want to spend too much money for it. This mostly rules out extremely old or extremely new hardware.

So no 486 or a fancy Ryzen for me, but the 486 would be too slow to be entertaining anyway...

Interesting stuff there, don't forget to post a thread on how the triple SLI goes. Kinda tempted toward that myself since I possess 3 9600GTs.

Also got an Axim around, forget model, maybe X31 or X41. Also a dead WinCE handheld I can't get a peep out of, and a GPS that runs CE that I am trying to get a full fledged CE up on to use emulators on it, since it's got a fairly fast CPU, and takes SD cards. Wish we had a retro console section here, wanna find out about classic xbox and wii mods and homebrew emus on them... without you know, the "console people" vibe that most consoles forums have.

Minumum 32BIT VGA machine.(In reality, do not have anything slower than a full fledged 486SX25) Maximum ISA slot machine.(In reality P3-800 machines. I do not mess with newer stuff, no need.)

I'm only interested in PIII, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon 64. DosBox-x or 86Box easily replaces older hardware while PIII-Athlon 64 will never have good emulators. Windows 98-XP era games are abandonware nowadays and are quite good.

AlexZ wrote on 2022-10-26, 15:19:

while PIII-Athlon 64 will never have good emulators.

I would say there's little point to them right now, never is a long time... can probably bust a PIII and GF3 out of OG Xbox emulation which is developing. In 10 years they might be a thing.

AlexZ wrote on 2022-10-26, 15:19:

I'm only interested in PIII, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon 64. DosBox-x or 86Box easily replaces older hardware

there is some practical merit to this approach, if the intent is to cover 95%+ of all msdos/win9x software

a later P3 or Athlon is more than enough for anything 9x and given an ok graphics card will also manage any 9x game. Dosbox etc will cope with all the DOS things that the PC cannot do directly (especially true if you have a more modern system to run them on)

From anything 6510/Z80/680xx up to P4, no less, no further. I have a few C64's, Z80 based (Sinclair, MSX), Amiga's and Atari's. I have mostly have a PC-build for each generation. Tandy's for 8086 and clones from 286 until a Shuttle based P4 which I use often for SCSI devices. All other parts and bits are stored in boxes.

Lack of time is my enemy. I have a fulltime job and run a small business fixing old gen computers, mostly 8-bit and 16-bit era.

From anything I collect, I use my 386DX-40 the most. Next my fully specced Amiga 1200 and a Sinclair +3. Other than that, my specced out A4000 just sits in a shelf, next to my most priced possession, an Atari Falcon 030.... Waiting to be used when I have more time at hands 😒 I'm trying to slim down my collection. But whenever I stumble upon something interesting, I buy it anyway 😀

AlexZ wrote on 2022-10-26, 15:19:

I'm only interested in PIII, Athlon, Athlon XP, Athlon 64. DosBox-x or 86Box easily replaces older hardware while PIII-Athlon 64 will never have good emulators.

Apple sells products with one right now.

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-10-28, 06:27:

Apple sells products with one right now.

Can you run Windows 98 with 3D acceleration on it?

You can run win98 games using it yes
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/vir … ms_with_rosetta
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wine-6.1-Released

rasz_pl wrote on 2022-10-28, 09:32:

You can run win98 games using it yes
https://developer.apple.com/documentation/vir … ms_with_rosetta
https://www.phoronix.com/news/Wine-6.1-Released

It would be helpful if you stated what Windows 98 Direct 3d games you got running using that solution.

https://appdb.winehq.org/ contains app database but for many games there isn't enough details to conclude how it compares to real Windows 98 and if it's worth it.

https://msfn.org/board/topic/183296-compiling … ndor-xp/page/4/

Reading through various replies, I find it interesting that a lot of folks tend to prefer systems after ATX became standard.

Conversely, I find myself enjoying working on systems prior to ATX form factor, but less so on ATX. I suppose that might be from having grown up with pre-ATX era but didn't get as much a chance to play around with a lot of hardware from that time.

For vintage purposes I prefer old AT based boards over newer ATX but that is due to my long history with computers in general. One thing I do dislike is MCA crap (and stand by my statement) of IBM stuff.
You can never persuade me to think it was a good thing compared to ISA or VLB or the later PCI... just my opinion.

late 486 boards/computers (it has to have PCI, or at least VLBUS, but currently, I have only one socket 3 board).
till about LGA775 (mostly Intel chipset, considering some nforce) / AM2+ era.
as I'm still on LGA775 board from about 2010 , I don't consider anything newer retro, as it would be upgrade of my primary computer. 😁 I never had something faster, so I would not feel it is retro, but actually it is progress, I was dreaming of. But since I've stopped playing (new) games, I've stopped to need performance, and also, got into circle of financial issues becuase of health problems, so I've stuck up with P5Q motherboard (currently serving 12th year) and Q9650 wannabe (xeon equivalent)

Still considering taking LGA1156 board to retro collection and don't use it as upgrade for primary computer (which will be tempting)

Also, I was beginning with PC on 486 DX2/66, and feeling it, I don't want older CPUs, so maybe lots of people have it like that, where they've begun in childhood.

My original plan was Pentium 1 - socket 478, because 486 has no practical sense, over Pentium 1, as it is just slower, not usable for early 3D accelerated games, more expensive, and it's not more compatible.

Although, we had definetely 386 at home from parents work (borrowed), and I had friend with 286, I definetely appretiated any computer in that era (early and mid 90's), I don't feel it the way, I want mess with such old computer, also because of Varta batteries, and IO controllers cards, etc... it was long decision even to go down to socket 3. Pentium 1 can do the stuff all better, than 486, and it's backwards compatible. But maybe that childhood computer 486DX2/66 conviced me, to take "one more older PC, that will make boundary of oldests, where it begins"