VOGONS


Reply 20 of 61, by Sombrero

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
gerwin wrote on 2022-10-19, 16:14:

Also was there ever a 7-series intel USB 3 driver made for XP? From what I know it is more desirable to have a XP compatible third-party USB 3 chip, as often found on a 6-series board.

I sure couldn't find one when I put my Ivy Bridge box together.

From what I can tell even the Windows 7 driver only supports 7-series and got basically no updates while the Intel USB3 driver that supports 8/9/100-series got updated all the way to late 2018.

DOS/Win98SE: Abit BX133-RAID / P3 650MHz / Voodoo3 3000 / 128MB SDRAM / SB Live! / Orpheus
WinXP: Asus P5K / P4 HT 651 3.4GHz (D0) / 6800 GT / 2GB DDR2 / X-Fi
WinXP/7: MSI Z77A-G43 / i5-3570 / GTX 960 / 8GB DDR3 / X-Fi

Reply 21 of 61, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Jo22 wrote:

It also supported other audio APIs via proprietary drivers.
A3D 1.0+2.0, EAX v1+v2, DirectSound 3D

EAX is not API. It's literally in the name.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 22 of 61, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-10-19, 19:17:
Jo22 wrote:

It also supported other audio APIs via proprietary drivers.
A3D 1.0+2.0, EAX v1+v2, DirectSound 3D

EAX is not API. It's literally in the name.

My bad. Let's call it the sound effects thing™ then. 😀
Whatever it is or was, it's native form is broken since Windows Vista.

"When Windows Vista discontinued DirectSound3D,
Creative made a software package called OpenAL which allows many
Windows EAX-carrying games to play software and hardware (soundcard driven) mode EAX with varying success.
OpenAL builds on the EAX extensions with EFX extensions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 23 of 61, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

If we start from scratch, I would still choose something on X79 for Windows XP/7 build, due to vast amount of Xeon options for that platform. You can do MicroATX too, ASRock X79 EXTREME4-M for example. Pop-in GTX 980Ti or Titan X, PCI Creative X-Fi and you're good to go.

EDIT:

Whatever it is or was, it's native form is broken since Windows Vista.

Please define "native", because EAX also natively exist in OpenAL API and actually used in some games with OpenAL support.

Last edited by The Serpent Rider on 2022-10-19, 19:38. Edited 3 times in total.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 24 of 61, by DosFreak

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-19, 19:26:
My bad. Let's call it the sound effects thing™ then. :) Whatever it is or was, it's native form is broken since Windows Vista. […]
Show full quote
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-10-19, 19:17:
Jo22 wrote:

It also supported other audio APIs via proprietary drivers.
A3D 1.0+2.0, EAX v1+v2, DirectSound 3D

EAX is not API. It's literally in the name.

My bad. Let's call it the sound effects thing™ then. 😀
Whatever it is or was, it's native form is broken since Windows Vista.

"When Windows Vista discontinued DirectSound3D,
Creative made a software package called OpenAL which allows many
Windows EAX-carrying games to play software and hardware (soundcard driven) mode EAX with varying success.
OpenAL builds on the EAX extensions with EFX extensions."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_Audio_Extensions

It's amazing how inaccurate wikipedia is for something purporting to be something it isn't. heh

DOSBox Compilation Guides
DosBox Feature Request Thread
PC Game Compatibility List
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Running DRM games offline

Reply 25 of 61, by gerwin

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
Sombrero wrote on 2022-10-19, 17:02:

I sure couldn't find one when I put my Ivy Bridge box together.

Good to know. Thanks.

The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-10-19, 19:29:

If we start from scratch, I would still choose something on X79 for Windows XP/7 build, due to vast amount of Xeon options for that platform. You can do MicroATX too, ASRock X79 EXTREME4-M for example. Pop-in GTX 980Ti or Titan X, PCI Creative X-Fi and you're good to go.

Have you tried this yourself? Why suggest it when you haven't tried it?
See Here at bonus content

While the Intel LGA 2011 X79 platform may seem like the ultimate Windows XP gaming machine, I found that the SpeedStep and Turbo features of the processor don’t function in XP. ... with this kind of ridiculous heat output and power consumption, it’s not a good choice at all.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 26 of 61, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Why suggest it when you haven't tried it?

Most likely Xeon + motherboard from China issue. Then again, you can manually tweak multiplier and voltage in OS on brandname motherboards.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 27 of 61, by gerwin

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
The Serpent Rider wrote on 2022-10-19, 19:55:

Why suggest it when you haven't tried it?

Most likely Xeon + motherboard from China issue. Then again, you can manually tweak multiplier and voltage in OS on brandname motherboards.

It does not say the brand/type. Just X79 chipset.
Until someone verifies from observation that another X79 motherboard does not have these issues, I will go with what I quoted.

--> ISA Soundcard Overview // Doom MBF 2.04 // SetMul

Reply 28 of 61, by The Serpent Rider

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

Phil did a review on one of these "new" X79 motherboards and he got identical problem in XP. Knowing that good half of them can't properly handle S3 sleep and other features, which still exist in BIOS options, I'm not surprised .

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 29 of 61, by fosterwj03

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member

I run Windows XP and Windows 7 on an Intel Core i7-4790k (Devil's Canyon) on an Asrock H97 motherboard. Everything on the board and processor works correctly with Windows XP except for the on-board gigabit ethernet (I use a PCIe network card instead) and USB 3.0. Technically, this board can handle Broadwell desktop and Xeon processors as well, but I think the i7-4790k offers about the same performance for half the price.

An earlier comment correctly points out that the biggest limiting factor for Windows XP on newer platforms is the ACPI compatibility. In fact, the ACPI on my H97 board is not compatible with Windows 2000 and older versions of Windows NT, but it is compatible with XP. My understanding is that the ACPI on Intel 90-series boards are generally compatible with Windows XP. I've also seen some posts online stating that some Skylake boards (100-series) are also compatible, but I have no personal experience with them.

If you don't mind running Windows XP in "Standard PC" mode (i.e uni-processor mode), I bet you could install and run Windows XP on even newer platforms with incompatible ACPI implementations. Standard PC mode ignores MPS and ACPI. You need to press F7 when the Windows XP installer boots to get the platform selection menu. Then select "Standard PC" and proceed with the installation.

Reply 30 of 61, by DosFreak

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++

All this talk of ACPI and USB3 incompatibility is just vanilla XP and not using the unofficial ACPI 2.0 or USB3 drivers or XP2ESD correct?

DOSBox Compilation Guides
DosBox Feature Request Thread
PC Game Compatibility List
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
Running DRM games offline

Reply 31 of 61, by fosterwj03

User metadata
Rank Member
Rank
Member
DosFreak wrote on 2022-10-22, 20:15:

All this talk of ACPI and USB3 incompatibility is just vanilla XP and not using the unofficial ACPI 2.0 or USB3 drivers or XP2ESD correct?

That's correct from my point of view. Some Asmedia USB 3.0 controllers do have Windows XP drivers, but my board uses Intel controllers (not a huge loss since the board's USB 2.0 controllers still work fine with Windows XP).

I'm a bit of a purest, so I prefer to run the Vanilla Kernels or those updated by MS. But, that's just me. I don't mind unofficial drivers, though, as long as they're stable.

Reply 32 of 61, by Meatball

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
fosterwj03 wrote on 2022-10-22, 20:23:
DosFreak wrote on 2022-10-22, 20:15:

All this talk of ACPI and USB3 incompatibility is just vanilla XP and not using the unofficial ACPI 2.0 or USB3 drivers or XP2ESD correct?

That's correct from my point of view. Some Asmedia USB 3.0 controllers do have Windows XP drivers, but my board uses Intel controllers (not a huge loss since the board's USB 2.0 controllers still work fine with Windows XP).

I'm a bit of a purest, so I prefer to run the Vanilla Kernels or those updated by MS. But, that's just me. I don't mind unofficial drivers, though, as long as they're stable.

The Asus P8Z77-M PRO board is an example having ASMEDIA USB 3.0 support for XP.

***->WINNER, 1ST PLACE<-***
2022 #QUAKE3totheMAX -560.5fps-
Brain Drain Retro LAN https://discord.com/channels/799008837918261328
Windows ME
NForce2 A7N8X-E DLX
Athlon 848/154MHz
DDR@411MHz (2-3-3-3)
GeForce 256 DDR@144/344MHz
ESS Maestr0-1

Reply 33 of 61, by Meatball

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

You can put together a fairly modern machine supporting Windows 7 with all drivers and no tinkering using a board based on the Intel B365 chipset.

I have a system running 8.1 (and supports Windows 7, 8.x, 10 & 11) with:

Motherboard: Asus B365M-A Prime
CPU: I9-9900 (non-K version)
GPU: Titan Xp (I could upgrade to a 30 or RDNA 2 series card, which both support Windows 7, if I wanted, to be even more 'modern.')
NVME: 1TB
SSD: 1TB

***->WINNER, 1ST PLACE<-***
2022 #QUAKE3totheMAX -560.5fps-
Brain Drain Retro LAN https://discord.com/channels/799008837918261328
Windows ME
NForce2 A7N8X-E DLX
Athlon 848/154MHz
DDR@411MHz (2-3-3-3)
GeForce 256 DDR@144/344MHz
ESS Maestr0-1

Reply 34 of 61, by Horun

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t

For Win7: Same with Z370 based but limited to certain cpu support and true good video support depending on the board and BIOS.
Why would any one in a vintage forum even use Win11..just curious 🤣

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor.

Reply 35 of 61, by zapbuzz

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Horun wrote on 2022-10-23, 04:24:

For Win7: Same with Z370 based but limited to certain cpu support and true good video support depending on the board and BIOS.
Why would any one in a vintage forum even use Win11..just curious 🤣

I like dns encryption in windows 11 and the new start menu is refreshing. The right click menu options is innovative.
Also I found a tweaker for windows 11
https://www.thewindowsclub.com/ultimate-windo … -for-windows-11
I always got more out of windows with tweakers no matter what version be w95 or w11
I use hypervisors for vintage fun oracle virtualbox, vmware are common but their dns requests can be encrypted now.

Reply 36 of 61, by Standard Def Steve

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie

I'm a fan of XP on Haswell. The CPUs have AVX2, which no XP app ever uses, but...Intel did have to turbo-charge the L1 caches to keep its 256-bit single-cycle FMA unit fed. Haswell's L1s are roughly twice as fast as Ivy's when measured in AIDA64! That makes for some silly high frame rates in XP games.

Sure, Sandy/Ivy Bridge can run pretty much any XP game at hundreds of frames per second, but there's something neat about seeing a game like FEAR run at 650 fps, or Dragothic (in 3D'01) hit 1900 fps with a 4.7GHz 4790K. And I'm pretty sure it's all thanks to the doubled L1 bandwidth. What else could it be? PCIe 3.0? Unlikely.

I'm not sure if XP can be made to work on the Skylake platform, but honestly, the CPU isn't much faster than Haswell clock for clock. It's nothing like the jump from Ivy Bridge to Haswell, at least when it comes to generating frivolously high, "my GPU's inductor coils are singing!" frame rates in XP era games. 😜

P6 chip. Triple the speed of the Pentium.
Tualatin: PIII-S @ 1628 MHz | QDI Advance 12T | 2GB DDR-310 | 6800GT | X-Fi | 500GB HDD | 3DMark01: 14,059
Dothan: PM @ 2720 MHz | MSI Speedster FA4 | 2GB DDR2-544 | GTX-280 | X-Fi | 500GB SSD | 3DMark01: 42,148

Reply 37 of 61, by Jo22

User metadata
Rank l33t++
Rank
l33t++
fosterwj03 wrote on 2022-10-22, 20:23:
DosFreak wrote on 2022-10-22, 20:15:

All this talk of ACPI and USB3 incompatibility is just vanilla XP and not using the unofficial ACPI 2.0 or USB3 drivers or XP2ESD correct?

That's correct from my point of view. Some Asmedia USB 3.0 controllers do have Windows XP drivers, but my board uses Intel controllers (not a huge loss since the board's USB 2.0 controllers still work fine with Windows XP).

I'm a bit of a purest, so I prefer to run the Vanilla Kernels or those updated by MS. But, that's just me. I don't mind unofficial drivers, though, as long as they're stable.

Personally, my father and me were an early adopter of USB 3.0 and we've started with PCIe add-on cards for USB 3.
This was in ~2010, if memory serves.
The earliest cards had the NEC chips on them and shipped with XP drivers for XP SP2 and up.
They worked just fine for the USB 3 HDD enclosure we ordered from a foreign country.

Edit: Because, USB 3 tech was almost unheard of at the time.
In ~2010/2011, in my city, no shop/store I had visited had USB 3.0 peripherals for sale.
The dudes selling electronics stuff had no idea what I was talking about when I asked for USB sticks/pen drives, card readers or external HDDs with USB 3.0 interface.
They all did stare at me as if I was some sort of a mental.
Then, they did show me cheap USB 2.0 stuff. I was so disappointed! 🙄

The only problem I can remember, of the early drivers, was, that sometimes the HDD was detected as USB 2 ("This device can provide a higher performance if" message popped up in taskbar).
If that happened, we unmounted/ejected the USB 3 HDD and removed/attached the USB3 plug.
It then was detected correctly as USB 3.0 HDD.

Other than this, I don't remember any trouble with USB 3.0 and XP..

Rather, the contrary. Most otherwise troublesome USB 1.x/2 devices worked like a charme on USB 3 ports.
They also provided more power, which was good for devices that exceeded the limits of prior USB specs.

A few months/years later, NEC was bought by another company, sadly.
They continued producing their chips, but.. I don't know.
I always felt the NEC versions were more substantial.

Edit: The Intel USB3 controllers are or were poor, I recall.
From what I remember reading 10 years ago, Intel was lazy or incompetent:
The company didn't include the USB 2 legacy block into silicon, as recommended by the USB IF.

Instead, Intel did leave the task for providing backwards compatibility up to the USB hub.
That's why there's so much trouble with USB3.0.
The Intel chips are (or were) purely USB 3. It's not detected by older operating systems thus.
Notebooks and PCs with USB3 integrated into intel chipsets have issues booting Windows XP/Vista/7 Setup from USB pen drives.
Unless they still have a dedicated USB 2.0 port left.

"Time, it seems, doesn't flow. For some it's fast, for some it's slow.
In what to one race is no time at all, another race can rise and fall..." - The Minstrel

//My video channel//

Reply 38 of 61, by candle_86

User metadata
Rank l33t
Rank
l33t
rasz_pl wrote on 2022-10-19, 16:16:

Whats the point when newest windows 11 can run all of the XP/Win7 software perfectly?

Because thats not always the case. Let me give you some circumstances

Brothers in Arms Road to Hill 30 and Earned in Blood use securerom, they don't work right in Windows 7 even unless you buy the GOG or Steam versions that no longer have the DRM, but the disk version good luck, basically anything with securerom won't work right on Windows 7 and newer as it predates the OS, it will work in Vista though. Now lets go look at all the games from 2007-2011 that used Games for Windows Live, some can be rebought on digital storefronts that don't use it anymore, but others never got updated, and guess what Games for Windows Live client doens't work right on Windows 10 or Windows 11, you can make it work but it has issues. These are just some of the use cases.

Now as for the topic, x79 or z68 are the best supported on XP, though I prefer something a little older, AM3 stuff is dirt cheap and has robust XP support, and any game that needs XP was written with AMD Athlon 64 X2 or core2 Duo at most in mind, now for Windows 7 offically support ends with Intel 7th Gen and Ryzen 1, but I've heard people getting much newer chipsets working on 7.

Reply 39 of 61, by rasz_pl

User metadata
Rank Oldbie
Rank
Oldbie
Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-23, 18:11:

Rather, the contrary. Most otherwise troublesome USB 1.x/2 devices worked like a charme on USB 3 ports.

because they worked on USB 2.0 host 😀 there are separate pins for 3.0 and 2.0 going to separate hardware blocks

Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-23, 18:11:

Edit: The Intel USB3 controllers are or were poor, I recall.

Intel USB (2/3) was always the fastest and most reliable. Be it drives or SDR (software defined radio) Intel controllers always provide fastest speeds.

There are sketchy vendors like Jmicron where depending on firmware your device will work on intel or NEC 😀 https://goughlui.com/2015/11/01/review-orico- … 9558ru3-part-2/

>Instead, Intel did leave the task for providing backwards compatibility up to the USB hub.
>That's why there's so much trouble with USB3.0.

incompetent device manufacturers shipping garbage unable to work behind USB hub?

Jo22 wrote on 2022-10-23, 18:11:

Notebooks and PCs with USB3 integrated into intel chipsets have issues booting Windows XP/Vista/7 Setup from USB pen drives. Unless they still have a dedicated USB 2.0 port left.

how? USB 2.0 pins in USB 3.0 port are connected to USB 2.0 host

candle_86 wrote on 2022-10-23, 19:55:

Brothers in Arms Road to Hill 30

http://www.gameburnworld.com/gp/gamefixes/bro … dtohill30.shtml

candle_86 wrote on 2022-10-23, 19:55:

and Earned in Blood use securerom, they don't work right in Windows 7 even unless you buy the GOG or Steam versions that no longer have the DRM, but the disk version good luck, basically anything with securerom won't work right on Windows 7 and newer as it predates the OS, it will work in Vista though.

http://www.gameburnworld.com/gp/gamefixes/bro … edinblood.shtml

candle_86 wrote on 2022-10-23, 19:55:

you can make it work but it has issues. These are just some of the use cases.

"you can make it work but it has issues" is how I would describe trying to run XP in general 😉