VOGONS


First post, by grzeszczuk

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Hi,

It is my first post here, therefore a short introduction first.

I've just finished my dream-build 5x86 on AB-PB4:

- AMD 5x86 running with 160MHz
- S3 Trio64 VGA on PCI
- SB16 CT1790 + WP32 McCake with CT32L rom
- Adaptec 2940U2W + ZuluSCSI
- my original, internal US Robotics 14k4 modem
- Gotek with FF software along with a real 3.5" FDD

And was a pretty happy user of the complete setup for like 12 hours, until I had an idea to connect Gerald's Retro PC Zimodem to COM1. It is a simple DB9 RS232 to TTL converter with ESP8266 soldered. A setup that is supposed to respond to AT commands and mimic the modem over TCP/IP. The ESP is externally powered with 5V micro USB. The setup did not work. One could see LED on ESP flashing, so probably, maybe, it worked internally, but there was no response to AT commands on standard 1200 bps serial speed. I've checked other speeds, checked Xon/Xoff vs RTS/CTS, no banana. But also no adverse effects, no strange popping sounds, no smells, nothing suspicious.

After that failed experiment, I reconnected the mouse back to COM1, put back the driver in AUTOEXEC.BAT, yet it did not work.
CTMOUSE responds, that "device is not connected". COMTEST shows no mouse connected.
Tried with two different serial mice, that work fine on COM2, but COM1 appears dead. Checked with external modem - again, COM2 is working, COM1 is not working anymore. Patched RX with TX with a piece of wire and checked with terminal emulator, also to no avail.

I've visually inspected two diodes (D1, D2) that are near the COM header and maybe are part of the setup, but they look intact.
In the olden days I was using RS232 ports a lot, for various modem, null-modem setups, console port of the routers, etc, and never actually fried any port, ever. Is that motherboard so fragile?

What I can do next to diagnose it? Could it be fixable?

Of course I could add a card with the UART16550 ports, but frankly speaking I have plans for all the ISA and PCI slots in my setup, and would rather have both COM ports working.

Thanks in advance!

--
mg

AB-PB4/5x86-160/32MB/S3Trio64/ZuluSCSI/CT1790+WP32McCake/Gotek/FDD3.5"/USR-Sportster-14k4
Atari 130XE/65816-Rapidus/VXBE/Ultimate1MB/FujiNet/AVG/IdePlus2.0D

Reply 1 of 10, by Tiido

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It sounds like the level converter chip has partially given up, on this particular board it is the smaller Winbond QFP near the COM ports. W83768F on some photos I could find.

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mida sa loed ? nagunii aru ei saa 😜

Reply 2 of 10, by Horun

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Did you ever test your Gerald's Retro PC Zimodem on any other computer ? If so what what other computer ? If not I would not.
It could have a flaw that caused a overload in chip Tiido mentioned. The datasheet for W83768F has under absolute max ratings for certain things and besides a flaw if you used a USB wall-wart type PSU into the Zimodem it could have supplied more volts than typical causing a voltage overload on COM1. Just a thought....

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 3 of 10, by grzeszczuk

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Tiido wrote on 2022-12-01, 02:33:

It sounds like the level converter chip has partially given up.

Thanks, I've found them at utsource, hope it will help.

Horun wrote on 2022-12-01, 03:12:

Did you ever test your Gerald's Retro PC Zimodem on any other computer ? If so what what other computer ? If not I would not.

Oh, no, I did not. But I guess next time I have to establish a policy to test on some more expendable hardware.
Like I said before, I've used so many RS232 devices in the past, and in so random and messy environments, but never actually fried anything.
Definitely I was not expecting permanent damage.

Thanks!

--
mg

AB-PB4/5x86-160/32MB/S3Trio64/ZuluSCSI/CT1790+WP32McCake/Gotek/FDD3.5"/USR-Sportster-14k4
Atari 130XE/65816-Rapidus/VXBE/Ultimate1MB/FujiNet/AVG/IdePlus2.0D

Reply 4 of 10, by rasz_pl

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Whole idea behind RS232 was being bulletproof. Its hard to fry level translators.
Do you have a multimeter? If you are game for a hack it might be possible to patch your Serial port by remapping less used lines. In theory full RS232 uses 5 inputs and 3 outputs. Most stuff with only use 1 input and one output.

As for the ESP8266 device, can you post picture of the thing? Have you rechecked pinout? I dont think even wrong wiring or pushing 5V into one of the pins would destroy RS232 transceiver, most likely port on your board was simply tired after 27 years 😀.

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Reply 5 of 10, by Horun

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In my experience there a very few coincidences with anything. If mouse worked fine on COM1 before testing the "untested" Zimodem on COM1 (which did not work) and now mouse does not work on COM1.
Makes me suspicious of the Zimodem. Example of same but different: My AGP slot quit working after testing an untested AGP video card but AGP slot worked fine with original AGP card.
Or my floppy controller worked fine until I tested an untested floppy drive but it worked fine with the original floppy drive 😁

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 6 of 10, by grzeszczuk

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At the moment I'm waiting for the replacement chip, I suppose that would be optimal solution, to have those two ports fully operational. And in the meantime I'm using COM2.
The Zimodem was generally a sealed theoretically and ready to go box with DB9, so no, were not checking it before plugging in, unfortunately. I will make some photos tomorrow and post.
I do have multimeter, yes.

--
mg

AB-PB4/5x86-160/32MB/S3Trio64/ZuluSCSI/CT1790+WP32McCake/Gotek/FDD3.5"/USR-Sportster-14k4
Atari 130XE/65816-Rapidus/VXBE/Ultimate1MB/FujiNet/AVG/IdePlus2.0D

Reply 7 of 10, by rasz_pl

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>Patched RX with TX with a piece of wire and checked with terminal emulator, also to no avail.

Put a multimeter at pin 3 (TX) and write something in terminal. My bet its only RX that blew.
Do the same with Zimodem and look at the voltage on its TX pin, should be within +- 30 Volts.
RS232 was designed to be idiot proof, You can short it to ground, to power supply, it should survive all of that abuse. There is no way for Zimodem to generate a signal able to kill a transceiver from its max232 (or whatever translator its using).

What might have happened is you powered Zimodem from another computer, you have bad ground(or no ground), and while plugging it in shield touched serial pins. Bad grounding issues is another kettle of fish altogether.

Last edited by rasz_pl on 2022-12-03, 06:13. Edited 1 time in total.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 8 of 10, by Horun

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If the 83768 was set for Low-V then the maximum for driver part is not +-30v but just above VCC/VDD max's (+/-13v), just an observation...

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun

Reply 9 of 10, by rasz_pl

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At first I thought that cant be right and assumed you must have seen VSS/VDD max, but there indeed is no mention of any other max characteristics 😮. Good old 1489 this is supposed to be replacing is +-30V. The f Winbond... did they really manufactured serial transceiver not conforming to EIA/TIA-232 standards?

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 10 of 10, by Horun

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The data sheet does state for the line driver/receivers: RS 232C (which is the low-V version, quote from diff source): RS232C is just the third version of the EIA's Recommended Standard 232. The current version is revision F. The major difference between the original standard and the C version was that the voltage levels for the signals were reduced from +/-25V to +/-12v and +/-5V. Not sure if that is correct but somewhat matches the sheet...

Hate posting a reply and then have to edit it because it made no sense 😁 First computer was an IBM 3270 workstation with CGA monitor. Stuff: https://archive.org/details/@horun