Is ME good too? 98SE wasn't stable on my fast system.

Are you looking for a particular resolution and settings for consistency?

I had to do a quick and dirty Win98SE re-install because I recently switched out motherboards on my Win9x/Win2K Retro Rocket, so this isn’t an optimized score (I only installed the system devices and the video card driver).

I got a 3DMark01 score of 26,092 with the default settings (1024x768, 32-bit).

My Windows 98SE test configuration:
- Processor: Intel Core i5-3570 (3.4 GHz Base, 3.8 GHz Turbo)
- Motherboard: Asus P7B75-V
- Memory: 8GB DDR-3 1600 (limited to 1GB in SYSTEM.INI)
- Graphics: ATI Radeon x800 XL
- Storage: Generic 64GB SSD (SATA3)

brian105 wrote on 2023-01-15, 23:24:

Is ME good too? 98SE wasn't stable on my fast system.

Well, I plan to build an only-Win98SE scoreboard, for score consistency.. ME actually has always felt like a bit bigger update to Win98SE. They don't really differ dramatically - imho. What was the issue on Win98SE?

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-01-16, 00:54:

Are you looking for a particular resolution and settings for consistency?

I have updated the post regarding your question, added the terms. Thanks.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-01-16, 02:48:

I had to do a quick and dirty Win98SE re-install because I recently switched out motherboards on my Win9x/Win2K Retro Rocket, so […]
Show full quote

I had to do a quick and dirty Win98SE re-install because I recently switched out motherboards on my Win9x/Win2K Retro Rocket, so this isn’t an optimized score (I only installed the system devices and the video card driver).

I got a 3DMark01 score of 26,092 with the default settings (1024x768, 32-bit).

My Windows 98SE test configuration:
- Processor: Intel Core i5-3570 (3.4 GHz Base, 3.8 GHz Turbo)
- Motherboard: Asus P7B75-V
- Memory: 8GB DDR-3 1600 (limited to 1GB in SYSTEM.INI)
- Graphics: ATI Radeon x800 XL
- Storage: Generic 64GB SSD (SATA3)

Very interesting build - very good score. Any game compatibility or OS issues? Driver instability? Screenshot of the score, please.

Not a score board, but a dedicated thread : LINK

Well, I plan to build an only-Win98SE scoreboard, for score consistency.. ME actually has always felt like a bit bigger update to Win98SE. They don't really differ dramatically - imho. What was the issue on Win98SE?

Basically none of the drivers installed properly besides chipset drivers. GPU wouldn't initialize properly either, even with memory patches. Even the sound card (Audigy 2 ZS which should work properly) didn't initialize properly. All of this worked on ME though after drivers were installed.

deksar wrote on 2023-01-16, 05:50:

Very interesting build - very good score. Any game compatibility or OS issues? Driver instability? Screenshot of the score, please.

Thanks, but I think someone with a Radeon x850 XT could beat me by about 20%. I wish I had one, but I can’t justify getting yet another retro video card right now.

I have no stability problems in 3D applications/games with this configuration. I find the ATI drivers (Catalyst 6.2) very stable compared to the Nvidia drivers that support the 6000 and 7000-series cards.

I have also had no compatibility issues, although purists will note that these cards don’t support table fog and certain texture modes. I have seen the difference recently, but I didn’t play the games on supported hardware back in the day so it still looks like how I remember those scenes.

Edit: I realized I forgot to include evidence of the OS and CPU in my previous screenshot. Here's a new picture with a score of 26116 on this run.

brian105 wrote on 2023-01-16, 10:19:

Well, I plan to build an only-Win98SE scoreboard, for score consistency.. ME actually has always felt like a bit bigger update to Win98SE. They don't really differ dramatically - imho. What was the issue on Win98SE?

Basically none of the drivers installed properly besides chipset drivers. GPU wouldn't initialize properly either, even with memory patches. Even the sound card (Audigy 2 ZS which should work properly) didn't initialize properly. All of this worked on ME though after drivers were installed.

I recently bought an Audigy 2ZS. Unfortunately, I wasn't careful enough and I got a Dell OEM part that doesn't work with the installer on the Creative CD from Vogons. I tried to install the WDM drivers manually on Windows 98 SE last night, but they didn't work. I next extracted the VXD drivers from the cabinet file on the CD and manually installed them. The VXD drivers work (or at least provide stereo sound). I still need to figure out a good way to install the support software and perform a thorough capability test.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-01-16, 15:44:

Thanks, but I think someone with a Radeon x850 XT could beat me by about 20%. I wish I had one, but I can’t justify getting yet […]
Show full quote

Thanks, but I think someone with a Radeon x850 XT could beat me by about 20%. I wish I had one, but I can’t justify getting yet another retro video card right now.

I have no stability problems in 3D applications/games with this configuration. I find the ATI drivers (Catalyst 6.2) very stable compared to the Nvidia drivers that support the 6000 and 7000-series cards.

I have also had no compatibility issues, although purists will note that these cards don’t support table fog and certain texture modes. I have seen the difference recently, but I didn’t play the games on supported hardware back in the day so it still looks like how I remember those scenes.

Edit: I realized I forgot to include evidence of the OS and CPU in my previous screenshot. Here's a new picture with a score of 26116 on this run.

Cool, thanks for the details. By the way, that's a PCI-E card, right? How about motherboard/chipset drivers? Both your mobo and CPU are too new for Win98SE.

deksar wrote on 2023-01-16, 17:05:

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-01-16, 15:44:

Thanks, but I think someone with a Radeon x850 XT could beat me by about 20%. I wish I had one, but I can’t justify getting yet […]
Show full quote

Thanks, but I think someone with a Radeon x850 XT could beat me by about 20%. I wish I had one, but I can’t justify getting yet another retro video card right now.

I have no stability problems in 3D applications/games with this configuration. I find the ATI drivers (Catalyst 6.2) very stable compared to the Nvidia drivers that support the 6000 and 7000-series cards.

I have also had no compatibility issues, although purists will note that these cards don’t support table fog and certain texture modes. I have seen the difference recently, but I didn’t play the games on supported hardware back in the day so it still looks like how I remember those scenes.

Edit: I realized I forgot to include evidence of the OS and CPU in my previous screenshot. Here's a new picture with a score of 26116 on this run.

Cool, thanks for the details. By the way, that's a PCI-E card, right? How about motherboard/chipset drivers? Both your mobo and CPU are too new for Win98SE.

Yes, my Radeon x800 is a PCIE card (although AGP variants do exist in the x800-series). Windows 98 doesn't really care about PCIE (this system also has a PCIE USB card that works just fine with the stock drivers); it treats the devices as though they sit on the parallel PCI bus.

The trick is always the drivers. You need Windows 98 drivers for any PCIE device, and the drivers themselves must recognize the device on the PCIE channel. NVidia drivers are a great example. The 53-series drivers don't recognize PCIE devices even for the 5000-series family of cards, but the 56-series drivers do (just not well). NVidia worked out most of the PCIE bugs by the 66-series drivers.

Edit: Windows 98 uses the generic chipset drivers with the B75 board (PCI, bridges, clocks, IRQ handling, etc.). It is possible to get the last Intel chipset drivers to install and "recognize" the basic system devices, but it doesn't really change anything. I don't usually bother. The only unrecognized devices are a random "PCI Communications Device" and the "SM Bus". Neither causes any problems.

I have to manually add the PCI Bus from the New Hardware wizard after a fresh install, though. Once I install the PCI Bus driver, the magic happens automatically. I don't know why the PCI bus isn't recognized during the initial install process.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-01-16, 16:52:

brian105 wrote on 2023-01-16, 10:19:

Well, I plan to build an only-Win98SE scoreboard, for score consistency.. ME actually has always felt like a bit bigger update to Win98SE. They don't really differ dramatically - imho. What was the issue on Win98SE?

Basically none of the drivers installed properly besides chipset drivers. GPU wouldn't initialize properly either, even with memory patches. Even the sound card (Audigy 2 ZS which should work properly) didn't initialize properly. All of this worked on ME though after drivers were installed.

I recently bought an Audigy 2ZS. Unfortunately, I wasn't careful enough and I got a Dell OEM part that doesn't work with the installer on the Creative CD from Vogons. I tried to install the WDM drivers manually on Windows 98 SE last night, but they didn't work. I next extracted the VXD drivers from the cabinet file on the CD and manually installed them. The VXD drivers work (or at least provide stereo sound). I still need to figure out a good way to install the support software and perform a thorough capability test.

My Audigy is not an OEM part thankfully. Neither VXD nor WDM drivers worked in 98. It would either BSOD or just show up with a yellow triangle after a restart.

I was inspired by OMORES to push my Windows 98 experiments a little further. I finally managed to install Windows 98 SE on my Core i7-4790K retro rocket I normally use with Windows XP and Windows 7. I just needed Rloew’s PATCHMEM and SPLIT8MB utilities to get past a VXD error during the install.

Here’s a pic with a new 3Dmark 2001 score of 28,374 on a Core i7-4790K and a Radeon x800 XL.