As FM Towns owner I can confirm these machines were way ahead of western PC counterparts. Though it has to be said, their prices (both then and now, sadly) reflected that too.

The good: These are really nice machines, JP quality, and just fun to play with. The bad: Keyboards are crazy, early pads are so-so, most games are jRPGs and V-novels (often of the H kind), and for full experience an original monitor or something like OSSC is required (except the later Fresh models with VGA-compatible output). The ugly: Prices. Add shipping to that. I got lucky with "junk" sellers on Yahoo twice but these days are over. Well, I guess it might be worth paying extra and buy from local ebay reseller if it means no hassle with customs, less risky shipping and somewhat known state of the machine - that's how I got my Marty: tested (functional except floppy belt), original box and packaging, pad & cables, intra-EU shipping.

I have some japanese retro pcs and have to admit that these are the favorite pieces in the collection.
I especially like the x68000. Even though I grew up with an Amiga here in the EU, I have to say that the x68000s were far superior. I personally like the games on the system better.

I wouldn't think my fujitsu-siemens scaleo 400 or amilo pro laptops count in this thread.
the x68000 did impress me with games like Geograph seal... but i have never been ready to deposit a mortgage. 😅
I must say that i have a strange fondness for samsung pentium1 PCs sold in south korea, usually advertised at the end of televised korean pop music concerts.

I have MSX1 & MSX2 machines. Fantastic pieces. Sturdy. Fun to use. Take cartridges, disks and cassettes. BASIC programming. Nice sound capabilities. Nice graphics.. and the software library for MSX is wonderful. Contrary to other JP machines, the MSX is dominated with shmups. Many fantastic games from Konami and Compile... and finally.. it has MSX-DOS 1 and 2.. the latter supports directories. The file system is the same as that of MS DOS. You can move disks between MS-DOS and MSX-DOS interchangeably.

Don't these use an exotic floppy disk format? This is what the "Japan floppy" option in old BIOSes was for.

I do have had a Japanese computer since my childhood, a Sharp MZ-700 (731).
My father used to have an MZ-80K, too..

Here are some pictures.

https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=87

http://www.geocities.ws/peterochocki/computer … p/mz700rev.html

https://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/personal/0004.html

More fitting into this thread is the Japanese market version, maybe, the MZ-1500.
In beautiful black. It kept the keyboard and the basic 700 circuits (which 800 and 1500 improved on separately).

https://monochromeeffect.org/JVCC/2021/01/30/sharp-mz-1500/

Unfortunately, it didn't feature the nice orange keys of the original 700 series model.

Edit: About the computer.. In my country, the Sharp MZ series (80-K/A, 700, 800) was quite popular between the 1978 and 1985 or so.
There was lots of accessory hardware being available at the time.
It was also known in UK, Czechoslovakia, maybe Poland?

Anyway, while the systems may look very primitive judging by the graphics, they were quite capable.
The SHARPSCII character table has 512 symbols to choose from.
Much more than what US ASCII or CP437 (PC/DOS) had to offer.
That's why there are so many text mode games.
ASCII art on Sharp machines was a thing long before it was cool! 😜

The MZs had a Zilog Z-80, a mechanical keyboard and could be upgraded with floppy drives (700, 800 also with QuickDisks).

My father wrote his own floppy controller routines for CP/M,
so he could run it an write serious software for university on this machine.
This was in a time when 8" floppies were still around.
MBASIC, Turbo Pascal, some Fortran..
They all could run on these 8-Bit computers.

To make 80 characters fit on a 40 characters screen, a soft scrolling mechanism was used.
Because, 80x24 really was sort of an industry standard (terminal standard, actually. Line #25 was status on a terminal.)

Oh, and he also did RTTY with that thing.
And attached an acoustic coupler through a homebrewed serial interface.
The hand drawn schematic is still here, if there's an interest in seeing it.

The acoustic coupler was occasionally used to dial into local mailboxes,
but mainly for accessing Datex-P service.

Deunan wrote on 2023-02-10, 23:41:

As FM Towns owner I can confirm these machines were way ahead of western PC counterparts. Though it has to be said, their prices (both then and now, sadly) reflected that too.

The good: These are really nice machines, JP quality, and just fun to play with. The bad: Keyboards are crazy, early pads are so-so, most games are jRPGs and V-novels (often of the H kind), and for full experience an original monitor or something like OSSC is required (except the later Fresh models with VGA-compatible output). The ugly: Prices. Add shipping to that. I got lucky with "junk" sellers on Yahoo twice but these days are over. Well, I guess it might be worth paying extra and buy from local ebay reseller if it means no hassle with customs, less risky shipping and somewhat known state of the machine - that's how I got my Marty: tested (functional except floppy belt), original box and packaging, pad & cables, intra-EU shipping.

By lucky do you mean they just plain worked or did you have to give them a quick service? I too have the feeling the market is not as people used to describe it, were it a few years ago I would have gave it a shot but nowadays even on auction sites I don't see much offerings in terms of numbers or variety. And the increasing prices make it harder and harder to justify paying a premium to play games that are easily emulated and some have multiple ports in multiple platforms, plus MAME which just trumps it all and happily so. I guess for me it would be more about the piece in itself, had I a complete Sharp X68000 set for sale before me and I would most probably get it.

frankmonk wrote on 2023-02-11, 00:14:

I have some japanese retro pcs and have to admit that these are the favorite pieces in the collection.
I especially like the x68000. Even though I grew up with an Amiga here in the EU, I have to say that the x68000s were far superior. I personally like the games on the system better.

Could you please elaborate on which japanese computers you own? Which ones gave you the most work, ended up surprising you, or were a disappointment if it that's the case? To me nothing beats playing on real hardware but as said above nowadays emulation is so widespread, cheap and convenient that makes it difficult to justify past a certain price. But I guess the novelty aspect of it is what defines the niche hobby that we have

Vic Zarratt wrote on 2023-02-11, 00:29:

I wouldn't think my fujitsu-siemens scaleo 400 or amilo pro laptops count in this thread.
the x68000 did impress me with games like Geograph seal... but i have never been ready to deposit a mortgage. 😅
I must say that i have a strange fondness for samsung pentium1 PCs sold in south korea, usually advertised at the end of televised korean pop music concerts.

Well maybe it does, I would already consider the Sony Vaio Multimedia variants with built in MiniDisc as retro, and they're beautiful machines at that!

wbahnassi wrote on 2023-02-11, 01:20:

I have MSX1 & MSX2 machines. Fantastic pieces. Sturdy. Fun to use. Take cartridges, disks and cassettes. BASIC programming. Nice sound capabilities. Nice graphics.. and the software library for MSX is wonderful. Contrary to other JP machines, the MSX is dominated with shmups. Many fantastic games from Konami and Compile... and finally.. it has MSX-DOS 1 and 2.. the latter supports directories. The file system is the same as that of MS DOS. You can move disks between MS-DOS and MSX-DOS interchangeably.

I have the impression that with MSX being some type of standard it was probably more widespread, seems to me like it's maybe the cheapest and convenient way to start as a taste of the reality of Japanese computing of the era. Which brand variations do you have? Did you buy them in your country or imported them?

Jo22 wrote on 2023-02-11, 12:49:

I do have had a Japanese computer since my childhood, a Sharp MZ-700 (731). My father used to have an MZ-80K, too.. […]
Show full quote

I do have had a Japanese computer since my childhood, a Sharp MZ-700 (731).
My father used to have an MZ-80K, too..

Here are some pictures.

https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=87

http://www.geocities.ws/peterochocki/computer … p/mz700rev.html

https://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/personal/0004.html

More fitting into this thread is the Japanese market version, maybe, the MZ-1500.
In beautiful black. It kept the keyboard and the basic 700 circuits (which 800 and 1500 improved on separately).

https://monochromeeffect.org/JVCC/2021/01/30/sharp-mz-1500/

Unfortunately, it didn't feature the nice orange keys of the original 700 series model.

Edit: About the computer.. In my country, the Sharp MZ series (80-K/A, 700, 800) was quite popular between the 1978 and 1985 or so.
There was lots of accessory hardware being available at the time.
It was also known in UK, Czechoslovakia, maybe Poland?

Anyway, while the systems may look very primitive judging by the graphics, they were quite capable.
The SHARPSCII character table has 512 symbols to choose from.
Much more than what US ASCII or CP437 (PC/DOS) had to offer.
That's why there are so many text mode games.
ASCII art on Sharp machines was a thing long before it was cool! 😜

The MZs had a Zilog Z-80, a mechanical keyboard and could be upgraded with floppy drives (700, 800 also with QuickDisks).

My father wrote his own floppy controller routines for CP/M,
so he could run it an write serious software for university on this machine.
This was in a time when 8" floppies were still around.
MBASIC, Turbo Pascal, some Fortran..
They all could run on these 8-Bit computers.

To make 80 characters fit on a 40 characters screen, a soft scrolling mechanism was used.
Because, 80x24 really was sort of an industry standard (terminal standard, actually. Line #25 was status on a terminal.)

Oh, and he also did RTTY with that thing.
And attached an acoustic coupler through a homebrewed serial interface.
The hand drawn schematic is still here, if there's an interest in seeing it.

The acoustic coupler was occasionally used to dial into local mailboxes,
but mainly for accessing Datex-P service.

Thanks for the pics and links, a wonderful machine you have, I wish I still had more stuff that my father used. Were I born earlier and had I known about all these design varieties I honestly don't know if I would have controlled myself from importing a good few of them at the time, at great financial effort I'm sure. We had some really nice designs here in Europe for example but I swear Sharp just went to town at the time, wow

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-11, 16:21:

I have the impression that with MSX being some type of standard it was probably more widespread, seems to me like it's maybe the cheapest and convenient way to start as a taste of the reality of Japanese computing of the era. Which brand variations do you have? Did you buy them in your country or imported them?

I have two: Sakhr AX-170 (MSX1) and AX-370 (MSX2+ish). Both hardware are made by Sanyo and software by Al-Alamiah. I used to have an AX-170 during my childhood. But those MSXs I bought them in recent years on eBay from Egyptian sellers, and cleaned them/restored them to good condition.

MSX was wide-spread in Japan, the Middle East and several countries in Europe. Too bad MS didn't want to see it spread in the US too. But yes, this is a great 8-bit personal computing platform. MSX2 machines are the go to machines IMO. Not cheap, but definitely can't go wrong with an MSX2.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-11, 16:21:

By lucky do you mean they just plain worked or did you have to give them a quick service? I too have the feeling the market is not as people used to describe it, were it a few years ago I would have gave it a shot but nowadays even on auction sites I don't see much offerings in terms of numbers or variety. And the increasing prices make it harder and harder to justify paying a premium to play games that are easily emulated and some have multiple ports in multiple platforms, plus MAME which just trumps it all and happily so. I guess for me it would be more about the piece in itself, had I a complete Sharp X68000 set for sale before me and I would most probably get it.

I'm not a collector. I like things to work, looking nice is always welcome but not necessary for me. So I'm okay with buying stuff that looks rough but will most likely be OK inside. By lucky I mean I got just that - some far from perfect looking machines that required only minor repairs (if any) that I can easily do (like PSU or floppy drive repairs, cleaning, etc). All my machines work and I got them pretty cheap, which also helped by lowering customs fees. These days resellers will outbid you on anything you find - and while I can't fault people for trying to make some money, I don't like the prices they are asking.

As for MAME, well I'm mostly doing weird fun stuff to my machines and emulators are just no good for that. Not for many years to come anyway, someday we might have chips and PCBs rebuilt from scratch with some sort of 3D printing...

Deunan wrote on 2023-02-12, 13:24:

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-11, 16:21:

By lucky do you mean they just plain worked or did you have to give them a quick service? I too have the feeling the market is not as people used to describe it, were it a few years ago I would have gave it a shot but nowadays even on auction sites I don't see much offerings in terms of numbers or variety. And the increasing prices make it harder and harder to justify paying a premium to play games that are easily emulated and some have multiple ports in multiple platforms, plus MAME which just trumps it all and happily so. I guess for me it would be more about the piece in itself, had I a complete Sharp X68000 set for sale before me and I would most probably get it.

I'm not a collector. I like things to work, looking nice is always welcome but not necessary for me. So I'm okay with buying stuff that looks rough but will most likely be OK inside. By lucky I mean I got just that - some far from perfect looking machines that required only minor repairs (if any) that I can easily do (like PSU or floppy drive repairs, cleaning, etc). All my machines work and I got them pretty cheap, which also helped by lowering customs fees. These days resellers will outbid you on anything you find - and while I can't fault people for trying to make some money, I don't like the prices they are asking.

As for MAME, well I'm mostly doing weird fun stuff to my machines and emulators are just no good for that. Not for many years to come anyway, someday we might have chips and PCBs rebuilt from scratch with some sort of 3D printing...

Glad you mention it, as a beginner with little to no electrotechnical skills one thing that would concern me would be to perform for example a Pico PSU mod, or something along those lines to solve that problem, should it arise. Fixing the original PSU, that I'm sure it's way beyond my abilities. Floppy drive repairs and a general cleaning would be within my reach I think.

Another aspect is the specific details pertaining each machine, like having to choose specific Sharp X68000 models with the SCSI interface to adapt it to IDE and apply a flash card (or something along those lines), and the same thinking for PC-98 and FM Towns. I'm sure with careful research it all becomes quite clear, but it sure puts the breaks on some sudden impulse bidding 🤣.

Asking you and everyone else, did you make a point of getting all the peripherals for the machines or did you find not having them did not detract from the experience? Do those games/utilities feel any different with the Japanese keyboard? Can you easily adapt Western peripherals to use, or are the original ones just mandatory to use the machines in general?

About the original CRTs, do you feel any difference using the original ones vs. a regular one with the adapter, if you had the chance to compare?

Thank you for your patience regarding this barrage of questions, I'm trying to get a grip on the theme so as to understand if it's worth it to open that precedent and getting one someday. From what I see nowadays prices are so compressed upwards that it almost seems worth it to just hold out for a complete system in comparison to less complete ones, but at the same time I feel it's an upward struggle costs wise as the years pass. Maybe more preparation on my part would give me confidence in taking a chance on a junk item. Or maybe the proxy costs + shipping + customs to add will quickly kill that notion too 🤣

As a beginner I couldn't even be a collector if I tried, but as a sucker for asthetics the "novelty piece" aspect of it would be a great motivation. I would gladly use them and I'm sure I would be very impressed and satisfied, but also, for example to everyday look at a sleek Sharp X68000 on the desk must be a daily gift!

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-13, 01:30:

Another aspect is the specific details pertaining each machine, like having to choose specific Sharp X68000 models with the SCSI interface to adapt it to IDE and apply a flash card (or something along those lines), and the same thinking for PC-98 and FM Towns. I'm sure with careful research it all becomes quite clear, but it sure puts the breaks on some sudden impulse bidding 🤣.

Towns machines have SCSI (except the very first generation of grey towers, these need extra card for that) and can have external devices attached but most games require CD-ROM drive to work. Some will also offer or require HDD install but usually, as a copy-protection, the CD must be present anyway. Floppy disk games are an exception to that but those are somewhat rare to find, and frankly kinda obscure JP titles that nobody in the "west" even heard about.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-13, 01:30:

Asking you and everyone else, did you make a point of getting all the peripherals for the machines or did you find not having them did not detract from the experience? Do those games/utilities feel any different with the Japanese keyboard? Can you easily adapt Western peripherals to use, or are the original ones just mandatory to use the machines in general?

Again, not a collector, don't need all the peripherals just to have them. The main requirement is a gamepad, then a mouse if you want to play games other than shmups and jRPGs (and even some of those need mouse). Marty can emulate mouse with the pad but, since the pad is digital only, it's not all that great to use. OK for some games but I doubt you'd get far in Ultima Underworld with such setup.
Keyboard is optional unless you want to tinker with DOS - games don't need it but there might be exceptions. There are keyboard converter boxes for PC PS2 and USB keyboards, I have one (I have yet to find a decent Towns keyboard with sane price) and it works. Do note JP keyboards have different layout, having a modern JP USB keyboard might help. That said I think I already found a bug in that converter and I might just build my own eventually.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-13, 01:30:

About the original CRTs, do you feel any difference using the original ones vs. a regular one with the adapter, if you had the chance to compare?

This has less to do with feel and more with the fact that you'll need tri-sync monitor. It's possible to make simple adapter to VGA monitor with just a VGA cable and the right connector, but that will only work for 31kHz modes. Most games use that but not all, and not at all times (for example EoB intro runs in 24k, game itself in 31k). The entire boot procedure runs in 24k so good luck figuring what is wrong unless you have a working screen output. And some games might support 31k but default to 15k so you'd have to learn to switch that blindly (might be even next to impossible).
The simplest way around that is OSSC, current FW is pretty great for Towns needs. JP tri-sync LCD monitor will work too but AFAIR they dropped 24k and 15k in modern monitors and if you have to get old LCD, why not get old CRT. Which brings us to the most obvious but also the most difficult thing to get - Towns CRT monitor. I mean, if you can afford it, it's possible, but the price of shipping it, intact (so extra safe packaging and handling fees) is going to be a dealbreaker for most people.

I have

Sony F1X-DJ MSX2+
Sharp X68000 Pro (X2, both broken)
Sharp X68000 Super
NEC PC9821An

The X68k is an expensive and fragile bit of kit, when working and complete they are an amazing bit of technology, but getting there is a mountain of work.

All of them run through an OSSC, so no problems displaying their output in standard monitors.

Comparing the MSX2/2+ machines to other 8bit home computers and it wipes the floor with them. Sadly for us in Europe the market was already sewn up by the C64, Spectrum and CPC so the MSX barely got a foothold compared to those.

The NEC is an interesting look at the mirror image of the PC/Dos/Windows world. Everything looks the same at first glance, but get closer and you start to see things are similar but just a little 'off' to what you are used to!

Interestingly, data transfer is not an issue. The MSX uses FAT format floppies, the X68000 can read Dos drives up to FAT16 natively, and the PC98 is happy with anything up to FAT32.

The X68000 also talks normal SCSI in addition to the 1.2mb 5.25 floppy format (easy to write to if you have a 1.2mb pc 5.25 drive)I, so is happy with hard drives, Zip, CD-ROMs etc from the PC world.

PC98 is easiest to integrate into a retro network as you have virtually standard Dos tooling plus Windows tools for FTP, etc.

Most MSX systems these days will have a flash card or similar (megaflashrom, carnivore, etc) so mass storage is just as easy as a console.

Neithe PC98 or x68k work with standard PS2 peripherals, so budget for expensive originals, or adapters to convert to the native protocols.

Oh, and if you want to do anything than play a small number of self booting games on the x68k/PC98, you will absolutely need a keyboard and mouse; they are Dos systems at heart.

Deunan wrote on 2023-02-13, 18:45:

Again, not a collector, don't need all the peripherals just to have them. The main requirement is a gamepad, then a mouse if you […]
Show full quote

Again, not a collector, don't need all the peripherals just to have them. The main requirement is a gamepad, then a mouse if you want to play games other than shmups and jRPGs (and even some of those need mouse). Marty can emulate mouse with the pad but, since the pad is digital only, it's not all that great to use. OK for some games but I doubt you'd get far in Ultima Underworld with such setup.
Keyboard is optional unless you want to tinker with DOS - games don't need it but there might be exceptions. There are keyboard converter boxes for PC PS2 and USB keyboards, I have one (I have yet to find a decent Towns keyboard with sane price) and it works. Do note JP keyboards have different layout, having a modern JP USB keyboard might help. That said I think I already found a bug in that converter and I might just build my own eventually.

andre_6 wrote on 2023-02-13, 01:30:

About the original CRTs, do you feel any difference using the original ones vs. a regular one with the adapter, if you had the chance to compare?

This has less to do with feel and more with the fact that you'll need tri-sync monitor. It's possible to make simple adapter to VGA monitor with just a VGA cable and the right connector, but that will only work for 31kHz modes. Most games use that but not all, and not at all times (for example EoB intro runs in 24k, game itself in 31k). The entire boot procedure runs in 24k so good luck figuring what is wrong unless you have a working screen output. And some games might support 31k but default to 15k so you'd have to learn to switch that blindly (might be even next to impossible).
The simplest way around that is OSSC, current FW is pretty great for Towns needs. JP tri-sync LCD monitor will work too but AFAIR they dropped 24k and 15k in modern monitors and if you have to get old LCD, why not get old CRT. Which brings us to the most obvious but also the most difficult thing to get - Towns CRT monitor. I mean, if you can afford it, it's possible, but the price of shipping it, intact (so extra safe packaging and handling fees) is going to be a dealbreaker for most people.

megatron-uk wrote on 2023-02-13, 19:40:

I have […]
Show full quote

I have

Sony F1X-DJ MSX2+
Sharp X68000 Pro (X2, both broken)
Sharp X68000 Super
NEC PC9821An

The X68k is an expensive and fragile bit of kit, when working and complete they are an amazing bit of technology, but getting there is a mountain of work.

All of them run through an OSSC, so no problems displaying their output in standard monitors.

Comparing the MSX2/2+ machines to other 8bit home computers and it wipes the floor with them. Sadly for us in Europe the market was already sewn up by the C64, Spectrum and CPC so the MSX barely got a foothold compared to those.

The NEC is an interesting look at the mirror image of the PC/Dos/Windows world. Everything looks the same at first glance, but get closer and you start to see things are similar but just a little 'off' to what you are used to!

megatron-uk wrote on 2023-02-13, 20:35:

Interestingly, data transfer is not an issue. The MSX uses FAT format floppies, the X68000 can read Dos drives up to FAT16 nativ […]
Show full quote

Interestingly, data transfer is not an issue. The MSX uses FAT format floppies, the X68000 can read Dos drives up to FAT16 natively, and the PC98 is happy with anything up to FAT32.

The X68000 also talks normal SCSI in addition to the 1.2mb 5.25 floppy format (easy to write to if you have a 1.2mb pc 5.25 drive)I, so is happy with hard drives, Zip, CD-ROMs etc from the PC world.

PC98 is easiest to integrate into a retro network as you have virtually standard Dos tooling plus Windows tools for FTP, etc.

Most MSX systems these days will have a flash card or similar (megaflashrom, carnivore, etc) so mass storage is just as easy as a console.

Neithe PC98 or x68k work with standard PS2 peripherals, so budget for expensive originals, or adapters to convert to the native protocols.

Wonderful information, thank you both so much. I suspect that at the current prices when I'm finally able to afford these pieces of kit I won't have the time to fully dedicate myself to getting them in top shape, as I would also have to dramatically increase my skills to do so. I'll keep an eye on the market curve in general and decide when the moment arrives if the novelty aspect of it is something that I would be able to justify to myself when looking at more complete systems. I guess it's the cost of arriving late to the party, but I was just too young to get on the train when it was much more affordable.

Hardware wise, it's not that the MSX is "cheap" when compared to a regular retro computer but seems to me like a good compact starting point into this more exotic route. I suppose that until then emulation will crystalize much of what I would really wish to go for. This thread will be a wonderful guide, I will gratefully cherish it accordingly, much appreciated, and please keep the reports and tips on your experiences coming!

anyone checked out this cool homesite? http://www.cybergarage.org/
that FMtowns on the far right - love those early cd-rom loaders!

The MSX (especially in 2/2+ version) is a good all-in-one, self-contained setup. Especially if you pick up a Megaflashrom SCC+ or equivalent; it will play 97-99% of all the MSX titles out there except the single-digit titles that are for the Turbo-R or for Moonsound audio or V9990 gfx.

Vic Zarratt wrote on 2023-03-04, 04:30:

anyone checked out this cool homesite? http://www.cybergarage.org/

nice blog, I have similarly themed one bookmarked https://modelrail.otenko.com/category/retro