VOGONS


First post, by keenmaster486

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Inspired by the retro printer photo gallery thread, I want to get the Vogons community's thoughts on disambiguating the printer situation. I have not seen very much discussion online about retro printers compared to everything else, so this seems like as good a time as any to start it.

ARE there any good inkjets? Were there any at some point? Are they all that bad?

What were the best laser printers you've used and what would you recommend to someone looking to get into retro laser printers?

Are there any dot matrix printers that should definitely be avoided, and which ones stand out from the pack?

Is there a "holy grail" retro printer of each type, in your opinion?

These are the types of questions I hope to answer in this thread.

I'll start: I have an Epson LQ-850 that is an absolute tank. It saw regular office use during its heyday, and nowadays is connected to whatever vintage computer I'm tinkering with at the moment, ready to print off various documents I type up. It has never failed me. I don't think it has ever jammed.

I also have an HP Deskjet 842c. There is no way to say it other than: it is bad. It jams constantly and the print quality is terrible. The original HP ink cartridges are discontinued, and the cheap Chinese replacements are very crappy. I do not recommend it except as a curiosity.

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Reply 1 of 34, by chinny22

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Inkjet's I would have said something in the Deskjet 84x series. Just about every home had one and were better then the cheap printer/expensive ink business model that came shortly after.
Does sound like your issues are just due to age.
If you want a laugh google HP Turbojet. These things are the size of a small car but still have that Deskjet look about them.
Canon bubblejet was the other big player at the time with printers like the BJ-100, They felt a bit cheaper then HP but also withstood typical office abuse.

Thing about inkjets though is they were priced at the home market so never matched the quality of Laser printers. I've no desire to get one ever again.

Lasers personally I think its hard to surpass the HP Laserjet 4 series. These things never died and were thrown away because they were slow rather then not working.

Dot matrix think Epson has always been king, Even now I still deal with Epson dot matrix printers (POS receipt printers)

Reply 2 of 34, by bakemono

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I have a few dot-matrix printers still hanging around. One is a Panasonic KX-P 1180. I use it when I want to print on some adhesive labels, which I have a box full of on fanfold, tractor-feed paper.

My old inkjet from ~2000 (Canon BJC-1000) doesn't seem to be of any use these days because of the limited shelf life of the ink cartridges. They're all dried up. On the other hand, my latest printer is a Canon IP2700, also an inkjet, and the ink cartridges for this one are still working after sitting around for several years.

I kind of miss the daisy wheel printers that sounded like machine gun fire. Not sure if I still have one of those (Atari XDM-121)

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Reply 3 of 34, by Deunan

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In laser printers the drum will eventually get old and overexposed, and start smearing and/or stop transfering toner material to paper. The early HP ones (green tint, selenium based?) can be cleaned with IPA and that helps a bit with sufrace contamination but will get scarred simply by passing a lot of paper under it. That cannot be fixed.

Dot matrix printers heads can get dirty and stuck - though usually it can be cleaned with IPA (soaking or ultrasonic bath). Overheated heads are usually a lost cause. Also, finding compatbile inked ribbons can be difficult now and these do dry out.

In general the rather obvious conclusion is a well-cared for and not abused printer of these two types will last a long time. A LONG time. But anything can be killed quickly with dust, dirt and abuse. Inkjet printers are another story - had one, never again. Some are better then others (in terms of not killing their print heads or emptying the ink for whatever bullshit reason) like HP 800 series, but they all have the same issues. And one of those is you can't get the printed page even a bit wet, even a single water droplet or some moisture from fingers can smear the printout, no matter how good the printer is.

Reply 5 of 34, by Socket3

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My problem with inkjet printers back in the day was price per page. Ink cartridges were EXPENSIVE. Nowadays not so much, especially with some printers that use large ink tanks independent of the printing heads.

I still use laser printers tough - because despite years of advancements, inkjet printers still haven't solved a major flaw - ink clogging up the heads. I'd say most inkjets printers are fine if you use the printer once a week, but if you let it sit for longer periods of time like I do, laser makes more sense.

Reply 6 of 34, by sliderider

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The thing I've learned, is NEVER buy a color inkjet printer. They will blend some cyan in with your black printing, so your color cartridge gets used up faster. I have a B&W laser prnter next to me, that I use now, because 99.9% of what I print, only requires black.

Reply 7 of 34, by rasz_pl

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

what would you recommend to someone looking to get into retro laser printers?

1987 Atari SLM605/SLM804 Laser printers. They had no electronics inside other than the power supply. Instead a dongle was shipped with 19pin Atari ST DMA port (ASCI, very similar to SCSI) on one end, and 37 pin connector for the printer on the other. It contained two microcontrollers, Intel 8253 timer chip, Toshiba TC9142P dedicated Direct Drive Turntable motor controller 😀, bunch of buffers and some chips I cant identify :
https://manualzz.com/doc/7345398/atari-slm804 … nual--sep-1987-

Unlike all the other printers up to late nineties there was no high level computing smarts neither in the printer nor in the dongle. It was a Software Defined printer fully controlled by Atari ST (computer UI froze during printing to maintain tight timings), just like post year 2000 HP LaserJet 1000 and later Windows "host based" non PCL printers. As a result of this Atari ingenuity you ended up with a combo of Atari ST computer, 640×400@71.25 Hz monitor, DTP software (for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calamus_(DTP)) and a $1300 Atari SLM605 Laser printer costing less than just the Apple or IBM/HP laser printer alone, and as a bonus it printed 2-3 times faster.

similar topic from 15 years ago 😀 https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/vin … -printers.9355/

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Reply 8 of 34, by Shponglefan

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Deunan wrote on 2023-03-30, 10:49:

Inkjet printers are another story - had one, never again. Some are better then others (in terms of not killing their print heads or emptying the ink for whatever bullshit reason) like HP 800 series, but they all have the same issues. And one of those is you can't get the printed page even a bit wet, even a single water droplet or some moisture from fingers can smear the printout, no matter how good the printer is.

This depends on the paper & inks used. I've done lots of photo prints with inkjet printers on photo paper and they are waterproof.

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Reply 9 of 34, by Vynix

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The best laser printer I had? Bear with me as this is going to be... Not so retro, so IDK if this fits the topic.

So.... t'was a HP 2840, that thing was a beast with a capital "B". It was also, albeit a bit debatable, one of the worst printers I ever used as the one I had unfortunately had a fault where the toner holder spindle would get jammed for no discernable reason.. But if I could find one within a reasonable distance, I'm all down for getting another one.

As for the inkjet printer side of things... I've yet to see a inkjet that isn't fueled by a desire of causing indescribable headaches to whoever wants to try and use it to print something. *shudder* I do have a Deskjet 930C I picked up in a dumpster but I don't have working cartridges for it. Though it had the merit of working on Windows 10 (using generic drivers, just had to dig on MS update catalog, that's all it took) without giving much resistance, so that's something.

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Reply 10 of 34, by Jasin Natael

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You get what you pay for.
None of them are great, some are better than others but it's a science at this point.
The issue is not generally the quality of the device, it's the quality of the software supporting the device.

Example is the garbage HP "e" series printers that require a "always on" wifi connection and forces you to use the HP Smart app for all printing.
It goes under the guise of tracking your ink usage so it knows when to automagically send you fresh ink.
Of course it's just telemetry spyware that aggressively mines your data, and doesn't even deliver on a trouble free experience.
The app barely works, the software crashes most of the time and it renames your device so the end user can't tell half the time what printer they are even using.

That is simply one modern example, there are plenty of others. (WSD port monitors comes to mind).
In short modern home inkjet printers are cheaply made, cheaply sold and aren't designed to be serviceable or repairable in any way. Much like most all modern consumer electronics.

Reply 12 of 34, by keenmaster486

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I do think my issues with the Deskjet are probably mostly due to the crappy Chinese replacement cartridges.

Not sure whether there's really any good solution to that.

You can replace the drum on your laser printer if it goes bad, of course - if you can find one.

Yes modern inkjets are awful, like most modern consumer electronics. There must be a way to just disable the WiFi and print via USB though to prevent it from doing all of that.

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Reply 13 of 34, by BitWrangler

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Yah HP deskjets were always fussy with ink. The refills that were fine on Canon BJs or Kodak Diconix etc didn't work very well in them. For a period there was a supply of "HP ink" for better performance, but you'd still only get maybe one more fill per cart vs 5-10 times with other manufacturers.

I see mainstream home printing like...
up to 88ish 9 pin dot matrix (Though other tech existed and had fans and niche uses like golfball, daisy wheel, thermal, homebrew conversions of commercial/industrial stuff)
88ish to 92ish 24 pin "letter quality" dot matrix, nicer fonts, smoother edges etc.
92ish to 98ish Inkjet/bubblejet golden era. Mainly reliable printers with nice output (earlier ones didn't look too much different than 24pin) approached laser printer crispness.
98 up, instant e-waste consumer inkjet era, laser for home desktop getting affordable.

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Reply 14 of 34, by cyclone3d

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I've been using only laser printers for close to 20 years now. Got my first one when I was in college - somebody threw it in the trash.

Older Dell B/W laser printers are ok. I've never seen a color one that I was impressed with the design.

Newer laser printer brands I like are HP and Brother.

Always get 3rd party high capacity toner carts for around $40 for a full set.

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Reply 15 of 34, by dionb

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I'd split it into periods...

For 1990-1995, anything not dot matrix was beyond the reach of mere mortals. Probable the IBM Proprinter III we had wasn't best choice and certainly not cheapest, but it worked reliably until we had an alternative.
For 1995-2000, HP Deskjets were pretty decent. Inkjets were only awful with colour cartridges. The Deskjet 500 gave you far better quality (and speed) than matrix with decent reliability.
By 2000, 2nd hand laserprinters were easy to come by. I briefly used a monumentally huge HP Laserjet II (which I later repurposed into a coffee table, although it didn't offer enough leg room) until I got an old Apple LaserWriter 12/640 PS, a re-labeled Fuji/Xerox P893, which I used for at least a decade.

After that I made the horrible mistake of going for a Samsung colour laser printer, but that's hardly retro.

Reply 17 of 34, by Zup

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keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

ARE there any good inkjets? Were there any at some point? Are they all that bad?

Yes, if you understand some limitations. The most important one is that injectors will fail if unused for a time, so any inkjet will fail if left unused for a few months. I recommend to print a colour page every week to keep the printhead in a good mood. HP printers usually have the injectors in the cartridge, Epson and Canon on a printhead, so they are easily (but not cheaply) fixable. Also, they have a waste container that is fixed to the printer (except on business printers and plotters) and once it's full, it's game over.

My favourites are HP Deskjet 5xx (very big ink cartridges, PCL, very reliable) and HP Deskjet 8xx/9xx (also PCL, usually parallel+USB). Avoid Epson and Canon (expensive printheads).

keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

What were the best laser printers you've used and what would you recommend to someone looking to get into retro laser printers?

Everything HP built until Laserjet 5M/6M. I mean HP Laserjet II, III, 4 and I also recommend 4000, 4200 and 2000 series. Rugged, reliable... but big. Every one of those run PCL (and some are PS also), so it's easy to get them working in every OS / program even if you don't have drivers.

Lately I've been working with a bunch of Lexmark printers... they're also very reliable (but more modern and they don't have the same retro feeling), and most of them run PCL and PS. I'm thinking of keeping a E360d or E460dn as daily printer.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

Are there any dot matrix printers that should definitely be avoided, and which ones stand out from the pack?

I guess that anything made by Epson or Star will have that "retro" feeling... better if you get a tractor and continuos paper.

Avoid like the plague any financial printer (any version of Olivetti PR2 / MB2 or those Wincor 4950). Although they're (somewhat) reliable, people sell them when are almost unusable. So you'll find pretty beaten printers that deserve to be retired.

keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

Is there a "holy grail" retro printer of each type, in your opinion?

I guess not (they're pretty common), but the most retro things (by the looks) to have should be:
- HP Deskjet 500.
- HP Laserjet II, III, 4 (I like the 4 the most).
- IBM branded ones (or the first batch of Lexmark printers, when they were rebranded IBM ones).
- Any 80's Epson.
- Any 80's Star.
- Amstrad ones (if any has survived).

keenmaster486 wrote on 2023-03-30, 05:28:

I also have an HP Deskjet 842c. There is no way to say it other than: it is bad. It jams constantly and the print quality is terrible. The original HP ink cartridges are discontinued, and the cheap Chinese replacements are very crappy. I do not recommend it except as a curiosity.

It's a shame that HP cartridges are discontinued, they're the key to get best printings. Also, I'd say that cleaning the rollers of the printer (with some specialized liquid) will get you out of those jams.

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Reply 18 of 34, by paradigital

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My old Olivetti bubble jet was great. You had to switch between black and colour cartridges, so printing black and white never used up colour, and, as the heads were part of the cartridge, you never ended up with dried out heads if you left the printer for months (but you did have to replace the cartridge). They did have cartridge storage boxes which kept the heads pretty sealed from the environment, which helped longevity of stored cartridges, but they weren’t perfect.

These days I just use a relatively modern HP Color LaserJet C3525, with “compatible” toner. Much less faff, great quality printing, and can still print using old HP LaserJet drivers so 9x printing is possible too.

Reply 19 of 34, by Anonymous Coward

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I had a Canon BJC-4100 in 1994 or 1995. I really hated that thing. Slow. Noisy. Bad print quality. Used a lot of ink.
I never saw or used an inkjet that impressed me. Everybody I knew had one at some point. Whenever somebody wanted to buy a printer, I'd always recommend a laser printer, but was always ignored because "colour" was a priority or some reason.
I bought a Laserjet 6MP second hand in 2000. I used that until 2012 (usb to parallel port converter). It was still going strong, but I didn't have space for it in my shipping container.
Since then I've been using Brother laser printers. They're a little less robust, but they seem to get the job done.

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