kolderman wrote on 2023-06-09, 21:02:

- gigabyte GA-6BXC is very well regarded. GA-6BX7 is similar with socket 370. - ABit, BE6-II BF6 - Asus: CUBX - EPOX: EP-BX7+ […]
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- gigabyte GA-6BXC is very well regarded. GA-6BX7 is similar with socket 370.
- ABit, BE6-II BF6
- Asus: CUBX
- EPOX: EP-BX7+
- MSI BX Master

All premiums brands.

Ok great. Thanks for the recommendations.

@all about the sound cards I have done some further research and I think I will go with the SB0100 for windows like recommended.

Have not made decision which sound card would good for DOS gaming.

Most of the motherboards I am interested seem to have a ISA slot so going for good ISA card would be viable but could also use the PCI slot and go for a Pci card.

Need to some more research about that matter before I make my final decision.

gamefan_851 wrote on 2023-06-10, 07:14:

I have done some further research and I think I will go with the SB0100 for windows like recommended.

SBLive cards are excellent for Win9x gaming, and that particular model is among the best ones. The only use case where I would not recommend a SBLive is if you have a set of surround speakers.

Don't get me wrong, that card will work great with games which actually support 5.1 surround sound (e.g. Unreal, Deus Ex, Need For Speed 4: Hight Stakes etc). The problem is that it auto-expands stereo sources (like DOS games) to all speakers in that configuration. You can bypass this by manually changing your speaker setup to 2.1 every time you play a stereo only game, but that gets tedious really fast.

Have not made decision which sound card would good for DOS gaming.

SBLive cards are generally "good enough" for late-era DOS gaming. Their drivers offer SB16 compatibility and can also load soundfonts, which makes games that use General MIDI sound pretty good. However, this compatibility isn't perfect. You'll likely run into issues with older DOS titles, especially the ones which don't like memory managers. The FM Synth emulation on the SBLive isn't that great either. For both of those cases, a decent ISA sound card would be a much better fit.

@Joseph_Joestar That's good to know tat the SB life might have some problems with the speakers that support surround sound. As of now I wanted to use my old stero speakers but in the long run I would have planned an upgrade with surround speakers.

Have already figured that the sound situation with DOS games is more complicated then I have anticipated. So I changed my plan. I am not looking for the best possible DOS and early Windows 98SE system anymore. Some compromises seem to be unavoidable.

I am now looking for machine that is fine with Dos games from the mid 90s and with early Windows 98SE games up to 1999.

It is good to know that SB live cards might be good enough for late DOS games. That fact would help to save money a bit and avoid getting dedicated DOS card. But further research need to be done before I can make my final decision. I will check out the DOS games I want to play and see if they have some known sound problems.

For earlier.does games I will have to get dedicated DOS rig at some point in the future with really good ISA card.

gamefan_851 wrote on 2023-06-10, 08:01:

@Joseph_Joestar That's good to know tat the SB life might have some problems wiht speakers that support surround sound. As of now I wanted to use my old stero speakers but in the long run I would have planned an upgrade with surround speakers.

You can use an Audigy 1 or Audigy 2 card instead. They don't suffer from the aforementioned surround speaker issues. Or rather, you can disable this behavior by turning off CMSS.

With regards to DOS compatibility, Audigy cards are mostly the same as the SBLive. However, installing DOS drivers on Audigy 2 and ZS models is a somewhat complicated procedure.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-10, 08:23:

gamefan_851 wrote on 2023-06-10, 08:01:

@Joseph_Joestar That's good to know tat the SB life might have some problems wiht speakers that support surround sound. As of now I wanted to use my old stero speakers but in the long run I would have planned an upgrade with surround speakers.

You can use an Audigy 1 or Audigy 2 card instead. They don't suffer from the aforementioned surround speaker issues. Or rather, you can disable this behavior by turning off CMSS.

With regards to DOS compatibility, Audigy cards are mostly the same as the SBLive. However, installing DOS drivers on Audigy 2 and ZS models is a somewhat complicated procedure.

Thanks for the info. That's good to know. As far as I rember the Audigy 1 and Audigy cards very rather famous back then and are a decent choice for sure.

Dos gaming on pci sound cards is usually very hit and miss and depends heavily on motherboard. Opl is typically atrocious and soundfonts don't work in pure dos. Sb16 emulation is usually good..if it works but depends on finicky tsrs that aren't compatible with real mode dos games. That's assuming dos drivers exist at all. And forget about waveblaster modules and probably pc speaker in. On the bright side you get spdif output.

There's a reason pci cards usually aren't even mentioned in discussions about good dos sound cards here.

kolderman wrote on 2023-06-10, 09:26:

Dos gaming on pci sound cards is usually very hit and miss and depends heavily on motherboard. Opl is typically atrocious and soundfonts don't work in pure dos. Sb16 emulation is usually good..if it works but depends on finicky tsrs that aren't compatible with real mode dos games. That's assuming dos drivers exist at all. And forget about waveblaster modules and probably pc speaker in. On the bright side you get spdif output.

There's a reason pci cards usually aren't even mentioned in discussions about good dos sound cards here.

Thanks for the info. If that is the case I will use the SB 16 or the Audigy card to for playing Dos Games and I will forget the Pci dos card. The money I can save this way can be used for the good ISA card that is going to be used in the dos only system that is planned for the future.

kolderman wrote on 2023-06-10, 09:26:

And forget about waveblaster modules and probably pc speaker in.

The PC Speaker header exists on SBLive and Audigy 1 cards. I don't know if it's still available on Audigy 2 and ZS models though.

As for the missing waveblaster header, that is a downside to be sure. Also, I've had mixed experiences with using external MIDI devices (like a Roland Sound Canvas) on these cards.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-06-10, 10:07:

The PC Speaker header exists on SBLive and Audigy 1 cards. I don't know if it's still available on Audigy 2 and ZS models though.

I took a look at my Audigy 2 SB0240 which I'm going to put up for sale soonish, there's no PC Speaker header on it. Safe to assume ZS doesn't have it either I imagine.

Though in all honestly PC Speaker is one of those things I personally rather keep as a happy memory, stupid piezo drove me nuts until I unplugged it 😁

Thanks for the further information about the pc speaker.

I am shopping around for mainboards now and want to ask you guys what you guys think about the Abit AB-AH6 ? It is on sale now at certain place online and would could way less than normal. Would you guys consider it as good starting mobo for my build?

Abit was mentioned in the top mobo list of kolderman already but he mentioned only the the BE6-II BF6, so I woner if the AB series also deserves a place on the top motherboard list?

That connector layout looks painful. And it's 440LX so CPU support isn't stellar. Being such an early 440LX board and an Abit, also presents doubts regarding the quality of AGP power delivery.

A001 wrote on 2023-06-11, 15:42:

That connector layout looks painful. And it's 440LX so CPU support isn't stellar. Being such an early 440LX board and an Abit, also presents doubts regarding the quality of AGP power delivery.

Thanks a lot for the info. Then i will stay from that Abit mb and stick to ones in the list kolderman posted.

You could also freely look for suitable boards and pick one whenever you come across one. Test it and see if it suits your needs. If not, get rid of it or trade. It's good to have one or two for backup and for different configurations.
SE440BX-2 + 600Mhz PIII + GF2 MX400 for Windows games and maybe PII or P MMX for DOS. Or anything remotely similar really.

A suitable alternative would be the ASUS P2-99/P2Z motherboard that uses the Intel 440ZX chipset, being the budget variant of the well-known P2B. Rev 1.12 or greater has official support for Coppermine PIII CPUs.

A001 wrote on 2023-06-11, 17:25:

You could also freely look for suitable boards and pick one whenever you come across one. Test it and see if it suits your needs. If not, get rid of it or trade. It's good to have one or two for backup and for different configurations.
SE440BX-2 + 600Mhz PIII + GF2 MX400 for Windows games and maybe PII or P MMX for DOS. Or anything remotely similar really.

That's sound advice. I am going to do that. like you said it is never a bad thing to more parts in store for backup for some various builds.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-11, 18:38:

A suitable alternative would be the ASUS P2-99/P2Z motherboard that uses the Intel 440ZX chipset, being the budget variant of the well-known P2B. Rev 1.12 or greater has official support for Coppermine PIII CPUs.

Thanks the help as well. I will look into the Asus P2-99/PsZ . I will try to get . Rev 1.12 o or higher in order to have the the chance to use some coppermine as well.

is it possible to up to the highest clock p3 coppermine the 1 ghz model an the Asus mb via slocket adaptors ? And would this even make sense for my set up?

I mean for win 98SE games a 1 ghz p3 coppermine would be a good thing but would it be too much to make the later DOS games run properly?

gamefan_851 wrote on 2023-06-11, 19:55:

is it possible to up to the highest clock p3 coppermine the 1 ghz model an the Asus mb via slocket adaptors ?

Yes, if you can get a Slotket adapter that supports Coppermine CPUs at a good price. You shouldn't worry about the CPU multiplier settings on the motherboard since for they only work on early PII CPUs.

And would this even make sense for my set up?

I mean for win 98SE games a 1 ghz p3 coppermine would be a good thing but would it be too much to make the later DOS games run properly?

Depends on which games are you going to play.

For speed-sensitive ones it would be difficult to slow down the CPU smoothly, you will get around 386 speeds by just disabling the L1 cache. For the ones that crashes with "Runtime Error 200", they can be patched with utilities.

On the flip side, you get better performance in higher resolutions on games that supports VESA video modes.

Gmlb256 wrote on 2023-06-11, 20:46:

Yes, if you can get a Slotket adapter that supports Coppermine CPUs at a good price. You shouldn't worry about the CPU multiplie […]
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gamefan_851 wrote on 2023-06-11, 19:55:

is it possible to up to the highest clock p3 coppermine the 1 ghz model an the Asus mb via slocket adaptors ?

Yes, if you can get a Slotket adapter that supports Coppermine CPUs at a good price. You shouldn't worry about the CPU multiplier settings on the motherboard since for they only work on early PII CPUs.

And would this even make sense for my set up?

I mean for win 98SE games a 1 ghz p3 coppermine would be a good thing but would it be too much to make the later DOS games run properly?

Depends on which games are you going to play.

For speed-sensitive ones it would be difficult to slow down the CPU smoothly, you will get around 386 speeds by just disabling the L1 cache. For the ones that crashes with "Runtime Error 200", they can be patched with utilities.

On the flip side, you get better performance in higher resolutions on games that supports VESA video modes.

Thanks for the further information. That sounds really great. Price wise P3 cpu are not that expensive, at least not the 667 mhz, 850 or 933 mhz I have found so far. The 1ghz models are quite are though. Have found just one listing and that was a Tualatin and not Coppermine.

I will keep looking but as of now a 850mhz or the 933 mhz variant would be most reasonable purchase.

Concerning the DOS games I would be really happy if later DOS games from 1993 onwards would run on that system without any problems. For the earlier DOS stuff I am planning to build a dedicated DOS system at some point in the future.

For now the main Focus in on late DOS Games and Win98SE games only.

If you're mainly interested in 1993 and later DOS games, then I would just go with something cheap and widely available, like a P4 Northwood with an Intel 865pe chipset, SB Live or Audigy, and some Geforce 2, 3, 4ti, or 4mx. That would cover late DOS games and any Win98 game you can throw at it.
People will wax poetic about the need for an ISA sound card and a CPU that can hit all speeds from an XT to a 486, but unless you have a real interest in playing all those early speed sensitive DOS games on old hardware, I wouldn't worry about all the picky requirements for those old games.

pixel_workbench wrote on 2023-06-12, 18:16:

If you're mainly interested in 1993 and later DOS games, then I would just go with something cheap and widely available, like a P4 Northwood with an Intel 865pe chipset, SB Live or Audigy, and some Geforce 2, 3, 4ti, or 4mx. That would cover late DOS games and any Win98 game you can throw at it.
People will wax poetic about the need for an ISA sound card and a CPU that can hit all speeds from an XT to a 486, but unless you have a real interest in playing all those early speed sensitive DOS games on old hardware, I wouldn't worry about all the picky requirements for those old games.

Thanks for your advice. I will go mainly with the 440bx route, I got an ASUS P2B motherboard today already but there might be old p4 family pc that could also get second life as gaming machine in chase it is still working.

Need to check that out first.

According to the old bills it is a

s478 motherboard with I845E chipset

with a Pentium 4 2.5 GHZ cpu.

It does have a really good graphics card just ati expert 2000pro.

I need to check out first if it still works, but could this rig be turned with some tuning into a decent gaming machine what do you think?

After thinking about it again It might not not be the worst idea to start with an already existing rig for my first build. Easier than starting from the scratch.

The purchase of the Asus motherboard would no loss. I can keep it for later use.

Which configuration would give me the most power with s478 mainboard?

Just for some of my input, don't make the mistake of trying to go too new. Ask the guy who thought 98SE would just work fine on a K8T800 Socket 939 mobo. Stick to what people used 98 on for what will actually work best.

If you are into MIDI like I am (not a lot of people are lol) and don't want to go out of your way to drop hundreds of dollars on a ROMpler, the SB Audigy 2 ZS has good support for 98 when you follow the guide here for the drivers+SB16 emulation (which in my experience worked fine in duke3d, wolf3d, and fasttracker2 albeit i was not in dos mode, i just launched them in 98), and depending on how much RAM you have, you can load some impressive SF2s which can greatly improve the soundtracks of certain games.

I would consider a IDE to SATA adapter, or maybe even a CF card or SD card solution. You can also just use some random HDD you have laying around as Windows 98 is not historically known to require large amounts of data transmitted and most likely will not kill it.

Tip, if you plan to dualboot 98 and XP, I have a really ghetto method that works well when finished. Install XP first but during the install make a 80GB or smaller partition, and install XP to the rest of the unpartitioned space. Then, install 98 but after it's finished, shut down and use the XP setup disc to access the recovery console and restore the XP MBR. Then, use the bootpart application here https://www.winimage.com/bootpart.htm to add 98 to the boot menu. You can use msconfig to set whichever one as the default.