konc wrote on 2023-06-14, 14:28:

What was sold when is heavily, and I can't stress how much, country and region dependent.
In my country for example having a weak currency back then XTs were sold brand new well into 1991 and 1992, when people in other countries were discussing whether to get a 386 or a 486.
So everyone's memories while accurate might not be very helpful in this particular search

Very true. I think that is why around 1989 & 1990 those Juko ST motherboards with their 12 MHz NEC V20 CPU's could still breath some life into a nearly end of life XT architecture. The only issue was that you were still limited to only 1 MB (640K in reality) and this soon became an issue with later software that demanded more addressable memory (and yes, I know there was expanded memory).

8086 systems we’re definitely not uncommon after 1984

They were many times considered a cheap way to have at like performance with 8 bit XT peripherals and lower cost.

The Tandy 1000rl was 8086 based in 1991.

From what I remember is that XT regardless of CPU type was always cheap and popular right through 1990 when it died due to software support falling off a cliff.

286 and 386 machines were still luxury high end right through 1990 so many wouldn’t touch either.

286’s surged in popularity in 1992 due to cost then died instantly after.

386 machines never we’re extremely popular but about the same time you saw 486sx mom boxes 386sx systems were selling moderately.

Because people rarely built a machine before 1993 (mostly OEM) you didn’t see many 386dx40’s except among hobbyists

1991-1994 was a strange time where you could find new XT through Pentium machines available.

Definitely don’t see that type of market variety anymore

^I think the same. PCs in the 90s were evolving so fast.

It wasn't uncommon to see vintage PCs next to a high-end 486 PC.
Before 1995 and Windows 95, they were still being seen in daily life, also.

Even serial terminals (Wyse etc) were still in use, in shops to access inventory management software, in libraries to search for books etc.
That's why I often say that the early 90s were so different.
They still had that 80s vibe, including the old stuff.

After 1995 or 1996 it pretty much was all about 3DFX, Playstation, N64, DirectX, Windows 95/98 and DSL internet.

Edit: Sometimes I think that the end of the "80's" 90s, the end of the 16-Bit console era (SNES/Genesis), and the decline of DOS and 2D games are connected somehow.

Sometimes I feel as if all the good things went away shortly after Windows 95 and the Playstation were released (N64, too, maybe).
Maybe that's because they all caused a hype, sort of, which caused a big change in the landscape.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-14, 15:04:

I know. I just meant to say that CPU type and XT/AT aren't always tied to each others.

True, but generally speaking, the term 'XT' was short for 'IBM PC/XT or compatible'... effectively XT became synonymous with 8088 machines (or V20 ones).
8086 and 186-based machines were really rare, so pretty much everything that wasn't an XT was a 286 or better, and the short term for that became 'AT'.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-14, 15:04:

A better example would be upgrade boards, like the Intel Inboard/386.

Yea, but those are exceptional cases. It's an XT machine with a CPU upgrade installed.

Scali wrote on 2023-06-14, 18:54:

True, but generally speaking, the term 'XT' was short for 'IBM PC/XT or compatible'... effectively XT became synonymous with 808 […]
Show full quote

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-14, 15:04:

I know. I just meant to say that CPU type and XT/AT aren't always tied to each others.

True, but generally speaking, the term 'XT' was short for 'IBM PC/XT or compatible'... effectively XT became synonymous with 8088 machines (or V20 ones).
8086 and 186-based machines were really rare, so pretty much everything that wasn't an XT was a 286 or better, and the short term for that became 'AT'.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-14, 15:04:

A better example would be upgrade boards, like the Intel Inboard/386.

Yea, but those are exceptional cases. It's an XT machine with a CPU upgrade installed.

Every 286 Tandy 1000 series machine was an XT with only 8 IRQs and 8 bit slots

The myth of the rare 8086 goes back to Intels gimped silicon problems that extended into 82/83

Many 8086 cores that wouldn’t pass at 4.77mhz 16 bit transfers would be wired up as 8088’s

This is sort of like the original 486sx just being Intels attempt to use up gimped silicon.

Why running an identical core limited to 8 bit transfers allowed it to meet the 5mhz spec god only knows but this issue placed a premium price on the 8086 CPU coupled with the higher board price very early which limited them into low volume oddities like s100 machines.

Compaq had early 8086 based machines as did many others, they were considered premium or mid range for a number of years which likely priced them out.
Some XT software would flake out even on a 6mhz 8086 so that was also a demerit as early on there was one speed and one standard to rule them all.

But IBMs early 8086 based ps2’s certainly weren’t rare just less common
Even generic boards with 8086’s of various flavors were far from rare.

It’s just the 8088’s we’re literally the cheapest which is what most would buy given the high price of even a cheap system at that time.
People made due as nearly all software through 1989 would still run on an XT.

So more a case of less common than the lowest common denominator.

This argument is like saying 286’s are rare.
In 1983, yes, 1992 no.

Worth noting as well that home built Pc/XT x86 was rather uncommon even as clone boards became a thing 1986+

The popular Amstrad/Schneider PC1512 and PC1640 PCs used 8086s (or NEC V30s), as well.
And so did most PCs from Soviet Union / Eastern Europe back then, as far as I know.
They used either Z80 or 8086, not the reduced 8088.
Example: http://oldcomputer.info/pc/A7150/index.htm

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-22, 05:24:

The popular Amstrad/Schneider PC1512 and PC1640 PCs used 8086s (or NEC V30s), as well.

Only 8086, AFAIK.
Yes, easy to replace with V30, but the factory config was 8086.

And so did most PCs from Soviet Union / Eastern Europe back then, as far as I know.

In Poland, there was Mazovia 1016, using K1810WM86 - Soviet clone of 8086.

Grzyb wrote on 2023-06-14, 09:57:

The most common PCs with 8086 were:
IBM PS/2 model 25 and 30
Amstrad PC 1512 and 1640

I'm missing the Compaq Deskpro (see https://youtu.be/GMrCf0w4BUU?t=270) on the list of well-known 8086 PCs. Maybe it was too early and too expensive to get common, though.

You could check the ads in computer magazines (from your country) from that time to see what was being sold

HanSolo wrote on 2023-06-22, 22:26:

You could check the ads in computer magazines (from your country) from that time to see what was being sold

I would like to be proven wrong…

Most Pc spare parts magazine’s from the 1980’s have never been digitized (computer shopper as a good example)

Other mags were almost entirely focused on software or a small number of expansion devices.

Early 80’s the few magazines that did have a focus on hardware and are digitized seem to be focused on a specific brand like apple, Commodore or Atari.
Tandy had magazine’s but nobody was trying to sell clone boards in those.

rmay635703 wrote on 2023-06-23, 00:21:

Most Pc spare parts magazine’s from the 1980’s have never been digitized (computer shopper as a good example)

Preparing for the Incoming Computer Shopper Tsunami — June 5, 2023 http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5543
the scannageddon has begun

Grzyb wrote on 2023-06-22, 07:07:

And so did most PCs from Soviet Union / Eastern Europe back then, as far as I know.

In Poland, there was Mazovia 1016, using K1810WM86 - Soviet clone of 8086.

Cool, it even made it into a film. 😃👍
(Our 8088 based Schneider Euro PCs didn't, by comparison, AFAIK.)

http://www.starringthecomputer.com/appearance … tml?f=909&c=412

What I like is the "engine hood" type of chassis. I saw them on ATs only, so far.

Jo22 wrote on 2023-06-23, 03:32:

Cool, it even made it into a film. 😃👍 (Our 8088 based Schneider Euro PCs didn't, by comparison, AFAIK.) http://www.starringthec […]
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Grzyb wrote on 2023-06-22, 07:07:

In Poland, there was Mazovia 1016, using K1810WM86 - Soviet clone of 8086.

Cool, it even made it into a film. 😃👍
(Our 8088 based Schneider Euro PCs didn't, by comparison, AFAIK.)

http://www.starringthecomputer.com/appearance … tml?f=909&c=412

The problem was: that film was pretty much the only place to see the Mazovia 🤣

The entire electronics industry in Poland united their forces to create a clone of IBM PC, and... the mountain gave birth to a mouse 🤣
It was just an XT, while in the West there were already 386 machines appearing.
Production volume turned out to be very low.
Build quality was poor - I recall numerous complaints about Hungarian floppy drives that hardly ever worked, about sockets that didn't hold the chips properly, resulting in chips poping out due to fan vibration - the solution was to glue chips into sockets, efectively making the sockets pointless.
Despite the computer aimed to be IBM-compatible, it wasn't possible to use normal ISA cards - I believe the expansion slots were logically ISA, but not mechanically - instead of the edge connector, there were pins. AFAIK some Robotron PCs from East Germany suffered from the same problem.

In short: no way to compete with generic clones built off Far Eastern components.
And beautiful example of how bad the communist economy was.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-06-23, 02:50:

rmay635703 wrote on 2023-06-23, 00:21:

Most Pc spare parts magazine’s from the 1980’s have never been digitized (computer shopper as a good example)

Preparing for the Incoming Computer Shopper Tsunami — June 5, 2023 http://ascii.textfiles.com/archives/5543
the scannageddon has begun

Holy crap, I figured they were lost to time.

This makes my day, go offline 3 months and I miss this.

My mother made me throw all mine out, “why would anyone want to keep an old phone book of advertisements”, 🤣

Now I can look back at the adds I ordered my Pcs from.

I’m the type that might try to graph a street price of something, 🤣

I wonder if he is going to start at the beginning or go through the January of each year first?

Was there a DIY scene back then already? I thought it appeared somewhere in Pentium era, when parts became properly standardized, and even then there were some quirks with memory modules and graphics cards with certain motherboards. I have never seen a DIY built computer so old (modern retro hobbyist builds not counting), does anyone have any photos of such things, would be interesting to see how they did cable management and other things back then.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-06-23, 20:46:

Was there a DIY scene back then already? I thought it appeared somewhere in Pentium era, when parts became properly standardized, and even then there were some quirks with memory modules and graphics cards with certain motherboards. I have never seen a DIY built computer so old (modern retro hobbyist builds not counting), does anyone have any photos of such things, would be interesting to see how they did cable management and other things back then.

There was always a diy scene

In the mid 80’s you started seeing your first dark cream cases in the Computer Shopper and your first Pc/XT replacement motherboards (that were faster)

Just wasn’t as big of a thing then as it was early to mid 90’s

More popular DIYs at that time were kits and products targeting non-x86

Funny how things go in cycles , building a PC now is much less popular now than it was at peak vanilla box.

rmay635703 wrote on 2023-06-23, 20:53:

In the mid 80’s you started seeing your first dark cream cases in the Computer Shopper and your first Pc/XT replacement motherboards (that were faster)

I know some of the first microcomputers were sold as kits, but never knew IBM compatibles were on the same boat as well. I can only imagine some original diy built XT/AT machine in current year, it would be literally unique. For me it's like an unicorn, until I see it I have troubles believing! 😁

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-06-23, 20:46:

Was there a DIY scene back then already?

I think in the early days, it was mostly people in computer shops who had access to the required parts. They generally weren't marketed to end-users yet. Consumers would bring their machines into the shop to have upgrades or expansions installed.
Then shops would build their own 'home brand' machines from generic parts.
I think it wasn't until around 1988-1990 that parts were actively marketed to and sold directly to end-users, so they could build their own machine.
At least, in my experience, DIY really started to take off in the late 286/mainstream 386-era, more or less together with all sorts of small shops popping up, with their own lines of computers.
Having said that, I do know one friend who had a generic Turbo XT box, I believe with a V20 CPU. But it probably was from the late 80s, or perhaps even early 90s.

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-06-23, 21:05:

You remember correctly, X86 kit is a rather generous way of saying an empty motherboard With ram , crystal and cpu provided sep […]
Show full quote

rmay635703 wrote on 2023-06-23, 20:53:

In the mid 80’s you started seeing your first dark cream cases in the Computer Shopper and your first Pc/XT replacement motherboards (that were faster)

You remember correctly, X86 kit is a rather generous way of saying an empty motherboard
With ram , crystal and cpu provided separately so you could upgrade or repair your existing Pc/XT

Most solder your own kits were not for x86 or we’re targeting a novelty item like sound.

I remember for a time 5 slot upgrade boards were expensive enough that it made more sense just to get another 8 slot board and case (which was better anyway)

doublebuffer wrote on 2023-06-23, 20:46:

Was there a DIY scene back then already? I thought it appeared somewhere in Pentium era, when parts became properly standardized, and even then there were some quirks with memory modules and graphics cards with certain motherboards. I have never seen a DIY built computer so old (modern retro hobbyist builds not counting), does anyone have any photos of such things, would be interesting to see how they did cable management and other things back then.

You had to be extreme geek head to diy in eighties. Think HAMs, EEs and hobbyists attending computer clubs (like famous Homebrew Computer Club). Not to mention PCs were weak and expensive. ~1992 avalanche of cheap Am386 boards is where I would put a start of wider amateur system DIY. For the first time PCs were actually better for gaming than Amiga or 16bit console, prices stayed below $1000, Windows 3.1 was somewhat usable, and system components standardized enough.