VOGONS


First post, by acl

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Hello

I've spotted one in local ad for 10€. I'm half tempted and half not convinced.
What could be the use of such card ?

It's definitely a business/office card with DX10 for desktop effects, video decoding etc... Probably not very powerful for games with its 64bit mem bus.

But on the other hand, having a DX10 card on PCI sounds exciting. I have a dual P3 system with only PCI (PCI-x 64 bit) slots and it that could benefit from it. (Currently using a NVS280 ~= FX5500)

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/radeon- … d-4350-pci.c311

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Reply 1 of 20, by dionb

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This is a very low-end card.

Its use case was systems with integrated VGA and no PCIe slot in the days when that integrated VGA was still so crap a card like this would help.

It wouldn't surprise me if your existing NVS280 is actually faster (as a more mid-range card); DX10 support should be seen purely in terms of destktop compositing, not gaming.

Also, are you sure you have PCI-X and not just regular 64b PCI on that dual P3? - I'm not aware of any PCI-X supporting chipsets for P3... The difference is relevant as regular 64PCI can be 5V only (this is determined by board, not chipset - so some Serverworks III-based boards have 5V slots and others 3.3V) and this card most likely needs 3.3V to operate (although that doesn't have to be the case).

Tbh, in terms of something interesting for 64b PCI on the GPU front I'd look to a Matrox Parhelia. It won't be faster or more compatible, but actually having something designed for one of those big slots add value IMHO.

Reply 2 of 20, by RandomStranger

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I'd buy it just out of curiosity. The PCI-e variant is not an awful card for early XP. I had a laptop with HD4270 and it was already alright.

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Reply 3 of 20, by acl

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dionb wrote on 2023-06-22, 06:29:

This is a very low-end card.

Its use case was systems with integrated VGA and no PCIe slot in the days when that integrated VGA was still so crap a card like this would help.

Yes, before the CPUs started to integrate a graphic chip, there were tons of such lowend cards (PCI, PCIe or AGP)
Now this market is dead.
The last time i've seen some was at work. Back when we were still using desktop PCs we used tons of GT210 for multi display use. Two cards = 4 screens.
These GT210 died quite often without any reason so we had a sizeable stock. You just had to open you pc case, toss the card in the trash and ask for a new one. 15 min interruption.

dionb wrote on 2023-06-22, 06:29:

It wouldn't surprise me if your existing NVS280 is actually faster (as a more mid-range card); DX10 support should be seen purely in terms of destktop compositing, not gaming.

Now i'm even more curious to find out !

dionb wrote on 2023-06-22, 06:29:

Also, are you sure you have PCI-X and not just regular 64b PCI on that dual P3? - I'm not aware of any PCI-X supporting chipsets for P3... The difference is relevant as regular 64PCI can be 5V only (this is determined by board, not chipset - so some Serverworks III-based boards have 5V slots and others 3.3V) and this card most likely needs 3.3V to operate (although that doesn't have to be the case).

Tbh, in terms of something interesting for 64b PCI on the GPU front I'd look to a Matrox Parhelia. It won't be faster or more compatible, but actually having something designed for one of those big slots add value IMHO.

You're right, it's probably a 64Bit PCI. I double checked the manual and it describes it as 64bit PCI.
So 64Bit 66mhz PCI with physical 5v keyed slot.

(the board) Re: Bought these (retro) hardware today

Some Parhelia (at least) seems to have universal PCI connectors. I looked for one of these when i built this system, but prices were quite high... (compared the the Mainboard + Dual 1Ghz Coppermine + Ram + Scsi HDD + 1U server case for which paid.... 30€ + 0.99€ shipping 😁)

RandomStranger wrote on 2023-06-22, 06:39:

I'd buy it just out of curiosity. The PCI-e variant is not an awful card for early XP. I had a laptop with HD4270 and it was already alright.

I think i will keep an eye on this item and wait for the discount shipping.
The website can provides shipping for individuals selling stuff and offers nearly free shipping 2 or 3 times a year.
I'm curious, but not willing to pay the standard 4€/5€ shipping for a 10€ card.
This item is not labelled as PCI HD4350, the description contains only codenames, FCC ids etc... so i'm quite confident that no one will buy it by the meantime 😁

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Reply 4 of 20, by Skorbin

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Depends what you want to achieve with this card (which OS, games or just desktop, video acceleration, etc.)

The fastest you can get for standard PCI is probably the Geforce GT610 or the Geforce GT430. The GT430 has 96 shaders and 512 MB, whereas the GT610 has 48 shaders and 1 GB.
On the AMD side the fastest would be the HD5450 or actually its last incarnation, the HD7350 in the GDDR3 variant. They normally come with 512 MB, but the Visiontek HD 7350 PCI is the only version I know which was also available with 1 GB (unfortunately almost impossible to find).

All those cards don't come with DOS / Windows 98 driver, but I think that you wouldn't run those OS with dual-P3s anyway.

Your Quadro NVS 280 PCI compares rather with a Geforce FX5200 instead of the FX5500, as it only has 64 MB and a 64-bit bus. Whether it outperforms a HD 4350 is questionable as the Radeon is 5 years younger and has more modern features.

I once made a list of more modern PCI cards (Radeon 9200 and better, Geforce4 MX and better) which included over 70 different cards. The main bulk of cards were different versions of the FX5200 / FX5500 variety.
My TYAN S2505T (Dual P3-S 1400) only has PCI slots and now sports a Radeon HD 5450 PCI. It did work fine with Windows XP, but I decided to go hardcore and installed Gentoo Linux 😀

BTW, don't expect miracles from a PCI card, the bus is limiting you severely. My TYAN did "run" Crysis in lowest setting with about 8 FPS ...

Reply 7 of 20, by The Serpent Rider

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Skorbin wrote on 2023-06-22, 20:58:

The fastest you can get for standard PCI is probably the Geforce GT610 or the Geforce GT430. The GT430 has 96 shaders and 512 MB, whereas the GT610 has 48 shaders and 1 GB.
On the AMD side the fastest would be the HD5450 or actually its last incarnation, the HD7350 in the GDDR3 variant. They normally come with 512 MB, but the Visiontek HD 7350 PCI is the only version I know which was also available with 1 GB (unfortunately almost impossible to find).

No need to look for limited supply of late PCI video cards, any low profile PCIe can be easily installed via PCI adapter.
Need Windows 98 support? Look for low profile Radeon X300/X550/X600 or GeForce 6200/7300.

Well, unless LP case is included in equation, but that's whole different can of worms.

I must be some kind of standard: the anonymous gangbanger of the 21st century.

Reply 8 of 20, by Skorbin

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The Serpent Rider wrote on 2023-06-23, 04:12:
No need to look for limited supply of late PCI video cards, any low profile PCIe can be easily installed via PCI adapter. Need W […]
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Skorbin wrote on 2023-06-22, 20:58:

The fastest you can get for standard PCI is probably the Geforce GT610 or the Geforce GT430. The GT430 has 96 shaders and 512 MB, whereas the GT610 has 48 shaders and 1 GB.
On the AMD side the fastest would be the HD5450 or actually its last incarnation, the HD7350 in the GDDR3 variant. They normally come with 512 MB, but the Visiontek HD 7350 PCI is the only version I know which was also available with 1 GB (unfortunately almost impossible to find).

No need to look for limited supply of late PCI video cards, any low profile PCIe can be easily installed via PCI adapter.
Need Windows 98 support? Look for low profile Radeon X300/X550/X600 or GeForce 6200/7300.

Well, unless LP case is included in equation, but that's whole different can of worms.

You are right, also low-profile PCIe cards may be considered.
But you also need to consider the power draw of the card. The PCI slot is normally able to provide 25W, while the PCIe slot can provide up to 75W.
So you need either a low powered card (<25W) or you need a card with a separate power connector, which is able to power the card almost by itself.

Edit:
Btw, the adapters are not exactly cheap, so price-wise you might in some cases be even better off to go for the real PCI card instead of PCIe card plus adapter.
On the other hand, the combo is probably more readily available.

Reply 9 of 20, by LSS10999

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I'm currently experimenting with a FirePro MV 2260 PCI on an older system of mine. It's an interesting PCI card with two DisplayPort outputs.

Although not powerful, equivalent to a Radeon HD 3450, its DP ports are fully DP1.1 capable. I could get proper 1080p 120Hz or 1440p 60Hz output on my monitor out-of-box.

This is something even the most powerful AGP video cards could never achieve. Video cards of that era tend to use Dual-Link DVI to achieve high resolutions, for which no active adapters to HDMI/DP ever existed or worked.

PS: There are some DVI-to-HDMI adapters claimed to support high resolutions, which is NOT entirely true. From what I have read, it was actually a hack done on the video card side. The DVI port on some very modern video cards, particularly nVidia, could be made to function as an actual HDMI 2.0 port thus being able to transmit as much data as a real HDMI 2.0 port. When used with older video cards whose DVI cannot be made to work this way, such cables would be no different than ordinary DVI-HDMI cables -- you will still be limited to single-link DVI rates (1080p 60Hz).

Reply 10 of 20, by Skorbin

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LSS10999 wrote on 2023-06-23, 08:58:
I'm currently experimenting with a FirePro MV 2260 PCI on an older system of mine. It's an interesting PCI card with two Display […]
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I'm currently experimenting with a FirePro MV 2260 PCI on an older system of mine. It's an interesting PCI card with two DisplayPort outputs.

Although not powerful, equivalent to a Radeon HD 3450, its DP ports are fully DP1.1 capable. I could get proper 1080p 120Hz or 1440p 60Hz output on my monitor out-of-box.

This is something even the most powerful AGP video cards could never achieve. Video cards of that era tend to use Dual-Link DVI to achieve high resolutions, for which no active adapters to HDMI/DP ever existed or worked.

PS: There are some DVI-to-HDMI adapters claimed to support high resolutions, which is NOT entirely true. From what I have read, it was actually a hack done on the video card side. The DVI port on some very modern video cards, particularly nVidia, could be made to function as an actual HDMI 2.0 port thus being able to transmit as much data as a real HDMI 2.0 port. When used with older video cards whose DVI cannot be made to work this way, such cables would be no different than ordinary DVI-HDMI cables -- you will still be limited to single-link DVI rates (1080p 60Hz).

If you are lucky enough to find one of the VisionteK HD 7350 (either 512 MB or 1 GB), you have one Displayport and 2 Dual-Link DVI, but also 80 shaders instead of 40, GDDR3 instead of DDR2, and support for Directx 11 / OpenGL 4.5 as it is based on the Cedar core (the MV2260 is based on the RV620).
The only other PCI card with displayport i know of, is the Sparkle SX210DMS512PCI. That is a Geforce GT210 with 512 MB DDR3.

Edit: I just saw that you actually can currently buy the 512 MB card via Amazon from a seller in US for about 65$. If I didn't have the HD5450 PCI, I would be tempted ... 😉

Reply 11 of 20, by BitWrangler

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I'd buy it to mess around with, but the actual use cases of them are real marginal. There's a number of systems that you'd think would be a use case, to do an end run around their broken design, but it often turns out that the design is multiply broken and there is no improving them. I am pointing a particular finger here at Dell/HP/Compaq 775 systems from about 2004-2008, not all of them, mostly the low end compact ones. Some of those have a nasty quirk where you can't use PCIe graphics and more than 2GB of RAM... they may have onboard slug mode graphics... So you'd think that PCI graphics would help you out, but nope, not as primary graphics adapter, or may not be recognized at all. I have a 9400GT PCI that I have tried in several systems like this and they hate it. Meanwhile other PCIe/PCI motherboards it works fine on. I think some of this is that BIOSes will look for graphics in 2 places only, and onboard always takes one. It can happen with socket 7 or slot 1 with onboard, PCI works for graphics but it won't initialize an ISA graphics card. Whereas same chipset, no onboard, it does.

What makes those Dell etc frustrating, is that CPU wise, you can often get fast Core2 duo in there... backed up only by extra lame onboard with 4GB, or crippled to 2GB of RAM and some later PCIe cards won't even work, so you think "yay, PCI will save the day" but nope. So a number of systems that might appear to be a use case for these, aren't. That's why I think that late PCI cards often turn up "barely used in box" because they got bought and tried and were unsuitable.

Prior to those, you're often looking at them for Socket T, socket A, socket 478, socket 754 boards that you can cram a lot of CPU performance onto, but have only onboard graphics. With these you're thinking, "skip a few gens and the low end card is equivalent to a higher end card" which can be true and satisfactory. However these types of boards tend to be less satisfactory in other areas, using slower RAM, and only 2 slots to fill, and other performance un-hancing problems that make them less than useful for "lower end of XP" gaming, where these late PCI cards are useful.... and start you thinking more of "top end of Win98" where these late PCI cards run into compatibility problems. At that point the FX5x00 and ATI 9xx0 PCI cards start looking a lot better... and the DX9 benefit isn't all that great for late 98 either, such that settling for 8500 or 440MX PCI or so isn't crippling them much (And most of them can be played on dx7 dx8 cards with lower eye candy, but FAR more acceptable speeds than slow dx9 HW support)

So anyway, all I'm saying is, buy it to screw around with fine, but buy it to solve a particular problem, and unless you've borrowed a buddy's card to see if it does solve that problem, then you've got a low chance of being lucky. Of course there are also those of us with a few "problem" boards/systems where you can tailor the problem to suit the solution.... but I put that in the "buying it to screw around with" category.

edit: there's probably an actual actual use case in using it for some 2000-2010 simulation, flight, space or racing, when you've run out of PCIe slots to get more than 4 displays and you still want another one for another view or control panel or something.

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Reply 12 of 20, by Skorbin

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Well, my HD5450 PCi seems to work in various boards without issues, but i don't have that many of the Dell/HP/etc. variety.

I appreciate the card because it

  • is passivly cooled and low power, so puts no stress on the power supply and needs no additional cable
  • works from Windows XP to Windows 10, and is also supported by most Linux distributions
  • is single slot
  • has VGA, DVI and HDMI, so broad support of monitors

My TYAN board has an ATI ES1000 on board, which is VERY limited and there is no AGP slot.
With the HD5450 I can even watch videos on Youtube (using the H264ify addon, to avoid the not accelerated VP9 format).

Of course, this is not a gaming card, but the PCI slot is limiting anyway, so I am happy to do basic stuff in Linux.
Currently I am exploring Gentoo and will be installing a custom kernel soon to get the last ounce out of my "kings".

For gaming under Windows up to 98/ME i would rather go with older cards which provide better compability for the games.
On the Nvidia side I'd stay within Geforce 2 to Geforce 4 (depending on CPU) and on AMD side I would shoot for a Radeon 9200 or similar.
For DOS I would even go lower: you probably don't need the muscles and you have to deal with less quirks of the later cards and their drivers.
And there are the 3DFX cards as well ...

But back to topic:

The question was: is that HD 4350 of any use?

I would say: in some cases ...

a) server boards with really low onboard graphics, where you want a bigger screen for administration purpose, but real GPU power is not necessary
b) OEM machines (mostly the SFF type), which also have low onboard graphics, almost no space inside, are difficult to cool and/or have proprietary low power PSUs
c) as a quick testing card, especially if you want to check whether your AGP/PCIe card/slot is damaged or to just give a screen when flashing another graphics card.

Of course, sometimes there are incompabilities. But to have such a cheap card back up in your sleeve is never a mistake 😀

Reply 13 of 20, by The Serpent Rider

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Skorbin wrote on 2023-06-23, 08:25:

Btw, the adapters are not exactly cheap, so price-wise you might in some cases be even better off to go for the real PCI card instead of PCIe card plus adapter.
On the other hand, the combo is probably more readily available.

Not only that, but you can switch to different card painlessly.

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Reply 14 of 20, by 386SX

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When I tested both the Geforce 210 PCI and the GT610 PCI, these felt like a good upgrade to some rare PCI only mainboards but such design has many bottlenecks and the PCI bandwidth wasn't the biggest while the complex IC bridge task was probably the first; with at least three different hardware solutions more oriented to generic slower PCI tasks more than a complex GPU in a modern o.s., these seems to do a good job but it's not easy to balance performance and latency with so different bus logics. Also these PCI bridges worked with few watts, considering the PCI bus is already used at its highest power mode (25/30 watts) for the GPU itself.

Anyway the cards above imho worked better in Linux/Wine sw than the Win o.s. with higher 3D benchmark results, so probably a Linux machine might even be a good scenario for a Radeon card. The PCI-E adapter is using the very same IC bridges (on the back) to adapt the same logic to low profile video cards but there's the problem of compatibility, power requirements (only lowest power cards must be used) and adapters PCB quality isn't the highest. The PCI-E bus solder points feel like may be stressed by the weight/height of the video card and would need an higher quality bus connection imho.

Reply 15 of 20, by The Serpent Rider

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only lowest power cards must be used

Well, not really. If a card has external power, you can use it too. And it was already proved - Re: Dual PIII-S Tualatin 1.4 GHz Success Stories

Although not very high-end ones, like GTX 580, because these can draw over 50W via slot.

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Reply 16 of 20, by rasz_pl

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Youtube has few "xx games with this potato" videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsgYfM1cKw4 , looks surprisingly non single digit even in newer titles.

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Reply 17 of 20, by The Serpent Rider

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Eh, well, from perfromance standpoint it's roughly mathed to GeForce 6600GT/7600GS speed. 6600GT level of performance is certainly not terrible for usual system without AGP or PCIe slots (Socket 370 or Socket 478).

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Reply 18 of 20, by 386SX

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Well, not really. If a card has external power, you can use it too. And it was already proved - Re: Dual PIII-S Tualatin 1.4 GHz Success Stories

Although not very high-end ones, like GTX 580, because these can draw over 50W via slot.

I didn't try while I've seen on YouTube someone using these adapters with an externally powered vga. But considering the PCB quality, I still wonder if the balance of the power rails used would be correct or not in that configuration for long time, cause the adapter/bridge wasn't designed for such cards. And who know how many watts ask on both sources and how it handle with two power sources and the PCI-E bus power demand that still could be higher even with an external power source.

It'd be interesting to test this cause I'd not be surprised if the adapter IC bridge/mainboard could have problems. When I bought the adapter I was thinking to some solutions like the GT1030 DDR4 to push an Atom mini itx board but the GT610 PCI seems already more than enough even if doesn't look like a card with long lifetime for the heat/design. Many of these cards I think I've read had a shorter lifetime.

Reply 19 of 20, by Skorbin

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rasz_pl wrote on 2023-06-25, 01:01:

Youtube has few "xx games with this potato" videos like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsgYfM1cKw4 , looks surprisingly non single digit even in newer titles.

Please note that in this video the system is paired with a Ryzen, so the GPU is the limit here. Putting a better (cheap) PCIe graphics card in would have been very easy.

The best use case I see for this card (in the PCI version) is, when there is no other option to improve the graphic (no AGP, no PCIe).
PCI slots are limiting what you can throw in (shared bus, 25 W power limit, etc.), but in most cases it is better than the integrated graphics such machines usally have.
And if you look around, you can get them still cheap from time to time.