Is the current CPU a P3-800E or 800EB? So 100MHz FSB or 133MHz? And what about the P3-1000?

Most likely, both are 133MHz FSB already. In that case the added value is limited: it's just a 25% increase in core clock, and as FSB stays the same, your actual improvement in games will be less than that. If you also upgrade from 100MHz to 133MHz FSB while doing it (E to EB CPUs), your whole system will run 25% faster and you will get that improvement on CPU and memory limited games.

Of course, that's assuming the CPU is the bottleneck. It's likely that it will be for post-2000 game, but the same goes for the TNT2 (is it a full 128b bus version, or a TNT2-M64 with 64b memory bus?). Simple way to check: drop the resolution in a game where you're lagging. If speed improves significantly, you're GPU limited. If speed stays similar, it's CPU.

To be honest though, unless you find a way to kick this system to a 1400MHz Tualatin could be tricky on a brand-name box with custom HP BIOS...), it's not going to significantly change the situation. This was a time when CPU speeds were shooting up and games were quickly evolving to make use of that. For early 2000s Win98 games I'd suggest looking at a P4 >2GHz or an Athlon 1400 or higher.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-26, 07:00:

Is the current CPU a P3-800E or 800EB? So 100MHz FSB or 133MHz? And what about the P3-1000? […]
Show full quote

Is the current CPU a P3-800E or 800EB? So 100MHz FSB or 133MHz? And what about the P3-1000?

Most likely, both are 133MHz FSB already. In that case the added value is limited: it's just a 25% increase in core clock, and as FSB stays the same, your actual improvement in games will be less than that. If you also upgrade from 100MHz to 133MHz FSB while doing it (E to EB CPUs), your whole system will run 25% faster and you will get that improvement on CPU and memory limited games.

Of course, that's assuming the CPU is the bottleneck. It's likely that it will be for post-2000 game, but the same goes for the TNT2 (is it a full 128b bus version, or a TNT2-M64 with 64b memory bus?). Simple way to check: drop the resolution in a game where you're lagging. If speed improves significantly, you're GPU limited. If speed stays similar, it's CPU.

To be honest though, unless you find a way to kick this system to a 1400MHz Tualatin could be tricky on a brand-name box with custom HP BIOS...), it's not going to significantly change the situation. This was a time when CPU speeds were shooting up and games were quickly evolving to make use of that. For early 2000s Win98 games I'd suggest looking at a P4 >2GHz or an Athlon 1400 or higher.

Thanks for you reply. You are right about the front side bus. I have the 133 fsb version of the p3 800 mhz. And the p3 1 ghz I want to purchase is has the code SL5QJ. It should also be a 133 fsb model.

The TNT 2 card I have now is called MICRO STAR MS-8806

I will check your method as well to find out the bottleneck of my system.

Powering the system up 1400 MHZ could be tricky like you said and I have never thought about doing it because I am not experienced enough to make such project working.

So in the long run the only way to really improve performance for 2000 and 2001 games another more powerful system would be the best way.

It is just as thought then.

thanks for the help again.

You can download Everest Home Edition and it will display all the relevant info on your GPU, including memory bus width. For example, here's how it sees my Voodoo3 2000:

Everest works fine under Win9x too.

@Joseph_Joestar Thanks for you recommendation. I am going to that asp. Everest seems to be very useful tool I have never heard about before.

You can also just look up specs without installing 3rd party tools: the MSI MS-8806 is a TNT2 Pro, so a relatively high-end version with 128b memory bus and higher (143MHz core and 166MHz mem) clocks than the regular TNT2. A very nice match for a late P3 Coppermine.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-26, 12:05:

You can also just look up specs without installing 3rd party tools: the MSI MS-8806 is a TNT2 Pro, so a relatively high-end version with 128b memory bus and higher (143MHz core and 166MHz mem) clocks than the regular TNT2. A very nice match for a late P3 Coppermine.

Yes it is really good little card that works well with the p3 800mhz. Like I said I have no complaints at all when playing games from 97 to 99. I also would not consider the 2000 games uplayable by any means with that games the system just starts to show it's age. I am courious sohow how well the system would run with P 3 1 gHZ. even if the difference is not going to be massive.

To experience a biger leap in peformance for games from 2000/2001 I want to get something better for 2000 and 2000 games at some point in the future.

A early athlon xp and geforce 2 or 3 should be great match for that time frame.

I there, this is not a reply so it is likely to be reported. I don't understand how this forum works. Can I post a new topic? Because I have a question in don't know how to type the symbol that you can look above the letter n----> ñ , if I can't do that I can't mound a drive. I hope that you can understand.
And the other question. Can I initiate a new topic? Sorry, I am new in here.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 06:46:

I am curious now about the opinion from some other pentium 3 users if a upgrade from a p3 800 coppermine to a 1ghz coppermine would be worth it or would the differenes bee just small and not really noticable?

As gpu I am still using the riva TN2 that came with the system. In long run I want to replace it with a single voodoo 2 card for glide an and geforce 2 for direct3d games.

That's the reason why I might consider getting better cpu. Could a p3 1000 MHz speed up some games from 2000 in meaningful way compared to the 800 mhz version?

Well, I'd upgrade the TNT2 as it has no T&L support. Since Voodoo Graphics neither support T&L, the GeForce 2 would be fine for DirectX games.
As far as the CPU is concerned. When the motherboard does not support Tualatin, you almost won't notice too much from the better speed of a 1 GHz processor.
But if it is a Celeron 800 I'd consider an upgrade to a Pentium 3.

Upgrade the CPU to 1GHz and change the VGA card. Anything from GF2 to GF4 Ti will do just fine (but no MX versions).

Disruptor wrote on 2023-07-26, 13:17:

Well, I'd upgrade the TNT2 as it has no T&L support. Since Voodoo Graphics neither support T&L, the GeForce 2 would be fine for […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 06:46:

I am curious now about the opinion from some other pentium 3 users if a upgrade from a p3 800 coppermine to a 1ghz coppermine would be worth it or would the differenes bee just small and not really noticable?

As gpu I am still using the riva TN2 that came with the system. In long run I want to replace it with a single voodoo 2 card for glide an and geforce 2 for direct3d games.

That's the reason why I might consider getting better cpu. Could a p3 1000 MHz speed up some games from 2000 in meaningful way compared to the 800 mhz version?

Well, I'd upgrade the TNT2 as it has no T&L support. Since Voodoo Graphics neither support T&L, the GeForce 2 would be fine for DirectX games.
As far as the CPU is concerned. When the motherboard does not support Tualatin, you almost won't notice too much from the better speed of a 1 GHz processor.
But if it is a Celeron 800 I'd consider an upgrade to a Pentium 3.

Thanks for your reply. Yes getting card with T&L is a important point for games from 2000 onwards. That's why I wanted to get gf 2 in the long run anyway.

I do not think that my hp socket 370 motherboard would support a Tualatin cpu. At least I have not found any references about that.

ps: I am using a Pentium III 800EB btw and not a Celeron

kixs wrote on 2023-07-26, 13:22:

Upgrade the CPU to 1GHz and change the VGA card. Anything from GF2 to GF4 Ti will do just fine (but no MX versions).

Thanks for your recommendation as well. Like mentioned the GF 2 was already on my purchase list.

I have not made my final decision yet because a Geforce 3 or Geforce 4 could also very interesting.

I have especially read many nice things about the Geforce 4 4200.

A Geforce 3 ti 200 could also be a good pick price wise. From the performance point these card should also serve me well. I lacks some of the features the gf 4 has of course like pixel shaders but the games i want to play were made before the pixel shaders were a thing.

@all I am still on the fence about the p3 1000 mhz. Some of you guys have already said that the difference in performance might not be that big compared to the p3 800 mhz but I am still tempted to get one anyway out curiosity.

I think if I can find one for a small amount of money I will pull the trigger.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 17:28:

A Geforce 3 ti 200 could also be a good pick price wise. From the performance point these card should also serve me well. I lacks some of the features the gf 4 has of course like pixel shaders but the games i want to play were made before the pixel shaders were a thing.

Another feature that GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 (Ti only, not MX) cards have over the GeForce 2 is EMBM. It's not very common, but if one of your favorite games uses it, might be good to have a card that supports it.

Also, GeForce 3 has pixel shaders. It's GeForce 2 and below that don't. The GeForce 4 MX line doesn't have pixel shaders either, because Nvidia used misleading marketing at the time. That card is basically a souped up GeForce 2 with some memory enhancements.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 17:28:

I have especially read many nice things about the Geforce 4 4200.

Perhaps you can put a DVI output on the list of your desire. It is so easy to go to HDMI then.

Yep.

A Gf4 is totally OP for one of these CPUs, but you can also read that as that it is in no way a bottleneck. And DVI is very nice if you're hooking it up to TFT, not CRT. There are more period-correct cards with DVI, but they are generally obscure and offer far lower performance (thinking of the Number Nine SR9 SGRAM here, with S3 Savage4 Xtreme chipset). A Gf4 isn't authentic but it is a trouble-free card with excellent performance that will work fine with any OS from DOS to Windows 7 and Linux, OS/2 - just about everything except BeOS (max driver there is for GF2 or 4MX) - and it will do that digitally on your TFT. I have one in my Tualatin system for that very reason 😀

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-07-26, 17:33:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 17:28:

A Geforce 3 ti 200 could also be a good pick price wise. From the performance point these card should also serve me well. I lacks some of the features the gf 4 has of course like pixel shaders but the games i want to play were made before the pixel shaders were a thing.

Another feature that GeForce 3 and GeForce 4 (Ti only, not MX) cards have over the GeForce 2 is EMBM. It's not very common, but if one of your favorite games uses it, might be good to have a card that supports it.

Also, GeForce 3 has pixel shaders. It's GeForce 2 and below that don't. The GeForce 4 MX line doesn't have pixel shaders either, because Nvidia used misleading marketing at the time. That card is basically a souped up GeForce 2 with some memory enhancements.

Yes that's right the GF 3 was the first card with pixel shaders. I somehow confused the gf 3 with the gf2.

EMBM is also neat feature for sure but I need to read the wiki article first to check how many games I want to play support this feature.

I am ware that the mx440 is not real gf 4 so to speak that's why I am not interested in buying it.

It still looks a good card but I see no reason to purchase such card over a real GF 4 with all the features enabled or a Geforce 2.

dionb wrote on 2023-07-26, 20:11:

Yep.

A Gf4 is totally OP for one of these CPUs, but you can also read that as that it is in no way a bottleneck. And DVI is very nice if you're hooking it up to TFT, not CRT. There are more period-correct cards with DVI, but they are generally obscure and offer far lower performance (thinking of the Number Nine SR9 SGRAM here, with S3 Savage4 Xtreme chipset). A Gf4 isn't authentic but it is a trouble-free card with excellent performance that will work fine with any OS from DOS to Windows 7 and Linux, OS/2 - just about everything except BeOS (max driver there is for GF2 or 4MX) - and it will do that digitally on your TFT. I have one in my Tualatin system for that very reason 😀

Having DVI would be nice ideed because i do not have crt for my system.

I am also aware that gf4 is over the top for pentium 3 800 mhz or 1 GHZ but that's part of the fun. Like you said no bottlenecks to play around with various games.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 20:44:

I am ware that the mx440 is not real gf 4 so to speak that's why I am not interested in buying it.
It still looks a good card but I see no reason to purchase such card over a real GF 4 with all the features enabled or a Geforce 2.

You can get them with passive cooling

HanSolo wrote on 2023-07-26, 21:29:

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-26, 20:44:

I am ware that the mx440 is not real gf 4 so to speak that's why I am not interested in buying it.
It still looks a good card but I see no reason to purchase such card over a real GF 4 with all the features enabled or a Geforce 2.

You can get them with passive cooling

Thanks for the advice. A card with passive cooling could really be helpful to reduce the noise level which is a neat thing.

@all I pulled the trigger for the pentium 3 in the meantime and ordered my 1 GHZ coppermine cpu yesterday.

About the gpu I decided to either with the gf3 or gf 4.

Despite the fact I do not need the andvanced features of the gf 3 and gf 4 yet most of the games I am into do support his features it is still nice to have acess to this feature just in case I want to try out some more modern games in the near future.

I have a question about the gf3. I am willing to pay a bit more so I can get best gf3 card.

Which one should I pick? The original GF3 or the Ti 200 or the ti 500 variant?

The best (and most expensive of the series) is Ti500. Personally I'd go for Ti4200 or even Ti4600 if you want it - costs about the same as Ti500.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-28, 06:40:

I have a question about the gf3. I am willing to pay a bit more so I can get best gf3 card.

Which one should I pick? The original GF3 or the Ti 200 or the ti 500 variant?

Performance wise it goes:

1. GF3 Ti 200
2. GF3 standard
3. GF3 Ti 500

kixs wrote on 2023-07-28, 12:13:

The best (and most expensive of the series) is Ti500. Personally I'd go for Ti4200 or even Ti4600 if you want it - costs about the same as Ti500.

Ok thx for the info. I will check out the price of the cards you mentioned. The GF 4 Ti 4200 is neat card indeed. The Ti 4600 would be the most powerful of the gf 4 cards right?

The price point of the gf3 ti 500 and also the gf 4600 is really crazy. The most economical card of the gf 4 family would be the ti 4200.

I also would not call the gf 3 ti 200 cheap but their price range is still at a acceptable level.

I think I need to look at the competion from Radeon before I make my final decision just to sure. But at the moment it looks like that the gf 4 4200 would the best choice.

Grem Five wrote on 2023-07-28, 14:34:

Performance wise it goes: […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2023-07-28, 06:40:

I have a question about the gf3. I am willing to pay a bit more so I can get best gf3 card.

Which one should I pick? The original GF3 or the Ti 200 or the ti 500 variant?

Performance wise it goes:

1. GF3 Ti 200
2. GF3 standard
3. GF3 Ti 500

Thanks a lot for your peformance list. It was very helpful.