VOGONS


First post, by doublebuffer

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Trying to figure out this early-RAM module chaos in my head, as I understand not all 72-pin modules are EDO, and EDO means there are no wait states, therefore I'd assume that EDO RAM needs support from the motherboard, but does EDO RAM work on non-EDO motherboard? The jump from 72-pin SIMMS to DIMM seemed to happen quite fast, so there was very small window where EDO was used, so what kind of CPUs usually were paired with this type of memory?

Reply 1 of 13, by dionb

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First things first distinguish between memory technology and form factor.

In terms of form factor you have 30p SIMM (8 bit wide), 72p SIMM (32b wide) and 168p DIMM (64b wide). In terms of technology you have Fast Page (FP), EDO and later SDRAM.

You can get FP in all three form factors and EDO in at least the latter two. So in the case of 72p SIMM or 168p DIMM, the form factor alone says nothing about the type of memory.

What is or is not compatible depends on the memory controller. In general, memory controllers are backwards-compatible, so a controller supporting SDRAM will also support EDO and FP, but a controller supporting FP will not be able to use EDO or SDRAM. So no, EDO will generally not work on a non-EDO motherboard.

As for when it was used - mass uptake of EDO started in 1995 with the introduction of Intel's i430FX and i440FX chipsets. Some very late 486 boards would also work with it, but that was rare. SDRAM was introduced in late 1997 with the i430TX and i440LX chipsets, and EDO remained mainstream until 1998 when Pentium 2 became mainstream and Socket 7 moved to SDRAM-only boards. So EDO was the main technology for about 3 years. Was that 'very small'? Well, SDR-SDRAM didn't last for much longer - by late 2000 DDR-SDRAM had been introduced and quickly superseded it. So no, I'd say EDO had its moment in the sun.

Consider that developments in PC hardware were at their very fastest in the second half of the 1990s. In 1994 you could still just about get away with using a 386 from 5 years before (I know, I had to...), but there is no way whatsoever you could run any current software in 1999 (designed for Pentium at the very least and Pentium 3 ideally) on a 486 from 1994. So lasting for 3 years in this environment is actually quite an achievement.

Reply 3 of 13, by dionb

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Disruptor wrote on 2023-08-01, 15:27:

Please also consider that modules may have different voltage, like 3.3 Volt or 5 Volt. Some mainboards have a jumper for that.

Indeed. And just to clarify - this isn't tied 1:1 to technology either. Most FP and EDO are 5V, SDR-SDRAM is usually 3.3V, but there are definitely also 3.3V EDO SIMMs and DIMMs too. In theory different voltages should have different keying, but that's not guaranteed - in particular not on the kind of board with voltage jumper (PC Chips M537, here's looking at you).

There are two more distinctions:
- buffered, registered or unbuffered SIMMs/DIMMs. Buffering adds latency but allows larger amounts of memory on the bus. With the advent of SDRAM, buffering is replaced by registers, but the concept remains the same. You can never mix buffered/registered and unbuffered in the same system, and most consumer boards only accept unbuffered memory, where a lot of servers/workstations only accept buffered/registered memory.
- non-parity, parity or ECC memory. Here it sometimes is possible to mix: parity or ECC memory will generally happily run as non-parity/ECC, but you will not have the benefits of error checking (parity can identify single-bit errors, ECC double-bit errors) if you do. Controllers that don't support parity generally don't care if memory supports it or not. Conversely, some memory controllers not only support but also require parity/ECC memory.

Reply 4 of 13, by jakethompson1

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doublebuffer wrote on 2023-08-01, 13:41:

Trying to figure out this early-RAM module chaos in my head, as I understand not all 72-pin modules are EDO, and EDO means there are no wait states, therefore I'd assume that EDO RAM needs support from the motherboard, but does EDO RAM work on non-EDO motherboard? The jump from 72-pin SIMMS to DIMM seemed to happen quite fast, so there was very small window where EDO was used, so what kind of CPUs usually were paired with this type of memory?

You're right that the window of boards that support EDO RAM yet don't have any DIMM sockets (and therefore no SDRAM) is quite short.
I'd most closely tie it with the Socket 7, non-MMX Pentium CPUs, or other CPUs of the same era such as AMD K5.
A lot of these early Socket 7 boards that support EDO RAM, but no SDRAM would be on mpe's chipset comparison list: https://dependency-injection.com/early-pentium-chipsets/ If you want to read more about them.

That said, some of those early SDRAM boards I have are very picky about what SDRAM they will take. Like I put on a 32MB SDRAM DIMM and it gets detected as much smaller. So on that one I continue with EDO RAM, and suspect that was quite common. I don't think the payoff of SDRAM vs. EDO is very much on a 66 MHz bus.

Reply 5 of 13, by jakethompson1

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dionb wrote on 2023-08-01, 14:43:

In terms of form factor you have 30p SIMM (8 bit wide), 72p SIMM (32b wide) and 168p DIMM (64b wide). In terms of technology you have Fast Page (FP), EDO and later SDRAM.

You can get FP in all three form factors and EDO in at least the latter two. So in the case of 72p SIMM or 168p DIMM, the form factor alone says nothing about the type of memory.

But how common are FP and EDO DIMMs? I didn't think FP DIMMs existed at all (even if the specification accommodated them) and I thought EDO DIMMs were more a feature of the Mac world than PCs. EDO SO-DIMMs on the other hand...

Reply 6 of 13, by tokenalt

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jakethompson1 wrote on 2023-08-02, 00:20:
dionb wrote on 2023-08-01, 14:43:

In terms of form factor you have 30p SIMM (8 bit wide), 72p SIMM (32b wide) and 168p DIMM (64b wide). In terms of technology you have Fast Page (FP), EDO and later SDRAM.

You can get FP in all three form factors and EDO in at least the latter two. So in the case of 72p SIMM or 168p DIMM, the form factor alone says nothing about the type of memory.

But how common are FP and EDO DIMMs? I didn't think FP DIMMs existed at all (even if the specification accommodated them) and I thought EDO DIMMs were more a feature of the Mac world than PCs. EDO SO-DIMMs on the other hand...

Very common on non pc hardware. Apple's early powermacs used 168pin 5v 70ns FPM, later ones used EDO, a few models used 3.3v EDO. Sun sparcstation 4/5 used 168pin 5v 60n ECC FPM. Sun Ultra 5/10 used 168pin 3.3v 50/60ns ECC EDO. Many machines from HP, DEC, IBM, SGI and others also used FPM/EDO DIMMS.

Reply 7 of 13, by rasz_pl

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I remember seeing socket 7 boards with 3.3/5V DIMM jumper. I also remember RMAing at least a few EDO DIMMs in ~1999 while working for national PC parts distributor.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 8 of 13, by eisapc

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Compaq used buffered FPM and EDO DIMMs on some of their Proliant servers.
At least for the Proliant 5000 different memory boards for FPM and EDO DIMS exist.
HP Vectra XU 6 PPRo use 5V buffered EDO DIMM modules as well as some IBM PC series 300/700 and IBM RS/6000.

Reply 9 of 13, by demiurge

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dionb wrote on 2023-08-01, 23:52:

parity or ECC memory will generally happily run as non-parity/ECC, but you will not have the benefits of error checking (parity can identify single-bit errors, ECC double-bit errors) if you do. Controllers that don't support parity generally don't care if memory supports it or not. Conversely, some memory controllers not only support but also require parity/ECC memory.

Thanks I needed to hear that. I just ordered parity ram because the chipset supports parity but a similar model of mobo (missing actual manual) specifically states "parity is NOT supported"

Reply 10 of 13, by rmay635703

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Intel Vx technically supported SDRAM

5v and 5v tolerant SDRAM existed early on

I owned an ATX style Intel HX motherboard with 168pin dimms, was agrrivating to get upgrade memory for it.

The main reasons to avoid SDRAM (at leasT early on) was because it wasn’t as standardized as you would want and many times if it wasn’t matched to your specific board you could get instability even at 60mhz FSB
I had the exact same experience when PC100 first came out, that some truly aweful modules were around wearing the PC100 logo.

I owned PCCHIPS infamous first try at pc100 but only at 90mhz FSB. Finding ram that worked was notoriously terrible, I ended up using simms because sdram gave so much trouble

Reply 11 of 13, by rpocc

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doublebuffer wrote on 2023-08-01, 13:41:

Trying to figure out this early-RAM module chaos in my head, as I understand not all 72-pin modules are EDO, and EDO means there are no wait states, therefore I'd assume that EDO RAM needs support from the motherboard, but does EDO RAM work on non-EDO motherboard? The jump from 72-pin SIMMS to DIMM seemed to happen quite fast, so there was very small window where EDO was used, so what kind of CPUs usually were paired with this type of memory?

In two words: EDO is mostly supported only by Pentium (Socket 5/7 or later) motherboards with rare exceptions for the best known 486 boards. FPM is supported by ALL motherboards having SIMM slots. Exceptions such as very old 8086-type machines equipped with a SIMM slot, or very dumb Pentium machines are possible but should be extremely rare.
If the model of the chip (but not the latency rating, just type!) ends with 0 (zero), it's FPM (or a vintage simple DRAM with no FPM), but if it ends with 5 (or, any other non-zero digit), it's EDO. That's it.

Some details below.

Let's start from the basics.
Memory can be described in many ways:
1. Form-factor (DIP (dual in-line package) chip, SIP (single in-line package) chip, 30-pin, 72-pin or other xx-pin SIMM (single in-line memory module, both sides are parallel, with via at EACH contact), DIMM (dual in-line memory module, sides are different), So-DIMM.
2. Design type (SRAM/DRAM/ROM, etc)
3. Synchronicity (synchronous/asynchronous)
4. technology/generation within given type (Plain, FPM, EPM, EDO for DRAM)
5. Parity (Parity/Non-parity module)
6. ECC (error correction module, not the same as parity)

There are two general types of ram: SRAM (static) and DRAM (dynamic). The first is also known as Cache and CMOS, the actual bits are stored in kind of FLIP-FLOP transistor circuits and it can hold its contents draining very few current, so it can be backed up with a single battery, but costs a lot. Typical application of SRAM is early hand-held computers like Atari Portfolio, all kinds of battery-driven "non-volatile" RAM cards, BIOS settings (that are stored inside the chipset) and any kind of cache or build-in RAM of microcontrollers. Usually it's DIP-28 or DIP-32 or SOIC-28W chips with names starting with 24 or 62: 24257, 24257, 62512, 62258, 6264, etc.

Unlike SRAM, DRAM has much more simple design and effectively holds the data in capacitors, which discharge is controlled by transistors. This type of memory cell takes a LOT less silicon space, so DRAM chips are cost-effective for high capacity, but in exchange this interface requires a spacial refresh procedure once a several milliseconds, so it should be powered all the time, and also, due to high capacity, it splits the memory addresses into column and row, and this is why it's slower than SRAM: memory controller has to convert linear addresses to column and row addresses.

First generation DRAM chips were able to perform a simple read/write cycle: row address set, strobe, column address set, strobe, R/W, then you get a SINGLE word of memory in terms that the word is a minimal addressable volume of memory: 1 bit, 4 bits, or a whole array of chips, giving a 8/9-bit (30-pin SIMMs), or even 32/36-bit WORDS, each of which has an address and accessed the whole word at once. This kind of memories were typically 21 series DRAM on 8088/8086 era machines. Old chips, like 2164 or 21256 are that rare and vintage type of RAM. Usually even the speed rating is measured not in ns of latency, but in MHz of maximum CPU frequency. (4, 6, 8, 10, 12)

The next generation (41 and 51-series DRAM, later 81-series and other equivalents) had an important improvement: Fast Page Mode (FPM). This mode allowed to define the row address once, then read/write/refresh a whole page (hence the name) of data (literally the entire row) by sequentially strobing only column addresses, which made sequential read faster. Almost all 30-pin SIMMs are FPM. The speed rating measured in ns of /CAS to output latency (IIRC): 50 to 120 ns. Most of FPM (as well as EDO) DRAM chips are SOJ-26 with 2 or 6 absent legs at the middle, as well as SOJ-40 or SOJ-42, used in 2/4-chip SIMM modules or 512K+ VGA cards of ISA/VLB era and early PCI cards like S3 TRIO, CL, etc.

The DRAM we're talking about is Synchronous, in terms that it waits for a specific sequence of address set, /RAS, another address, /CAS signals to transfer the data. Unlike that, Synchronous memory (SDRAM) needs a dedicated CLOCK signal, so it can work in very effective burst modes, transferring sequential data words each clock cycle without need for specific sequence or waits. Most of the time, the SDRAM chips are in SOP packages and the rating is measured in MHz of clock frequency, not ns!

The main problem with this synchronous approach was inevitable latency and need to synchronize it somehow between CPU and FSB clock. The memory controller had to do the following during memory read: get a memory access command from the CPU, translate it to RAS/CAS strobes, wait for the data to appear on the data bus after 60-80 ns, latch it and transfer it back to CPU. The data had to be read before sending the next CAS or RAS/CAS strobes, so there was some time loss and that was the main reason why 386 and 486 motherboards got L2 cache. It was much faster that DRAM and could operate in 1-2 CPU cycles.

So, FPM DRAM was used in all 286, 386 and 486 computer (there were later 486 MB with EDO support but I've never seen one), and all early VGA cards.

The EDO (Extended Data Out) means a single simple idea: it keeps data at the Data bus as long as possible until the very last /CAS is coming in order to request the next word of data. This allows memory controllers to plan data fetching procedures in more optimized way making EDO modules faster in operation. But the problem is that EDO is not backwards-compatible with FPM memory controllers, so old motherboards don't expect memory modules to keep data in data lines after rising the /CAS line back to HIGH state, so they can't support EDO modules, although I never seen the vice-versa situation when you couldn't install FPM modules into a Socket-7 motherboard.
Actually there are techniques for modding EDO modules to emulate behavior of FPM and for the most cases it does work just perfect. The DIY 30-pin SIMM modules by Alexandru Groza are using exactly this technique.

Memory capacity is measured in words, because machine word is a memory volume having specific, single address, but the exact number of BITS in word is determined by the CPU architecture and hance, the DATA bus width.
A typical 30-pin 1MB module consists of 3 chips: 2 chips of 1Mx4 (1 Megaword by 4 bits) and 1Mx1 for parity, so when 1Mx9 is referenced, it's 1 MByte with parity bit.
A typical 72-pin 4MB non-parity module can either consist of two 1Mx16 chips (SOJ-40), which gives 32 Mbits = 4 MBytes with 32-bit words (right, the size of int!) or eight 1Mx4 chips, giving exactly the same 1M words of 32 bits, or 4 MBytes.
And this is the math behind detecting the right memory capacity from photo and datasheet (if you don't remember what each partname means)

Few more notes.

* Not all DIMM modules are SDRAM. There are EDO DRAM DIMM modules. Some of early Socket-7 motherboards do not dupport SDRAM DIMM but support EDORAM DIMM.
* There are 80-pin and 72-pin SIMM modules with ROM and Flash. Usually a character sets for HP printers or memory for Cisco networking equipment. absolutely not compatible with PC.
* Not all modules looking like a 72-pin SIMM are technically SIMMs. I have a pack of server DIMM modules in 72-pin SIMM form-factor, but with actual 144 _different_ contacts and double-width data bus.
* 20pin SOJ-26 chips are usually 256K words x 1 or 4 bits or 1M words x 1 or 4 bits or 4M x 1 bit. This means that 9-chip 30-pin SIMMs can be either 256K or 1M or even 4M depending on the actual chip models.
* 24pin SOJ-26 chips are almost always 4M words x 4 bits, so if you're looking for 4M 30-pin or 16/32M 72-pin, look for 6 legs a side!
* 24pin wide SOJ-26 with 16M words x 1 bit do exist but usually that large memory is made in SOP packages. 16M by 4 bits are always SOP-32 or something like that.
* NOT ALL of 16-chip 72-pin SIMMs are 32 MB. I've seen a bizzare EDO RAM module with 16x AFL NA511740C5D-60J chips with only 2 data bits used in each chip (and it was different set of pins on each side with visually identical chips!), so this module looked like absolutely legit 32MB module but was physically capable of addressing only 16M (4Mwords x 2bits x 16chips = 128 Mbits; divide by 8 = 16 MBytes)

* Once more about the right way to determine FPM and EDO 72-pin modules. latency doesn't count. Datecodes doesn't count. Gold or silver plating doesn't count. Number of chips or chip form-factor doesn't count. Letters doesn't count. Digits in chip models only count and nothing else.

FPM chips (a random dump from my stock list), just notice the zeroes before the speed rating: 100, 400, 160, 40C0J etc. These are the zeroes where the gold is burried.
814100A-70
ACT TD44400ALJ-70
Alliance AS4C14400-60JC
AMT TM514400AJ-70 DIP
Fairchild 8116400A-60
Fujitsu 8117400A-60PFTN
Fujitsu 81440070
Fujitsu 814400A-70
Goldstar GM71C4100AJ70
Goldstar GM71C4100BJ70
Goldstar GM71C4400BLJ70
Hitachi HM514100AS7
Hitachi HM514400ALS7
Hitachi HM514400AS7
Hitachi HM514400BS7
Hitachi HY514400AJ-70
Hynix-Hyundai HY5117400AJ-60
Hynix-Hyundai HY5118160BJC-60
Hynix-Hyundai HY5118160JC-70
Hynix-Hyundai HY514400AJ-70
Hyundai/Hynix HY5117400
Hyundai/Hynix HY5118160JC-70
Hyundai/Hynix HY514400AJ-70
ITP CL514400J-07
LGS GM71C18160BJ6
M514256-10J
Mitsubishi M5M416400BJ-6
Mitsubishi M5M44100AJ-7
Mitsubishi M5M44100AJ-8
Mitsubishi M5M44400BJ-7
Mitsubishi M5M44400BJ-7S
Motorola MCM514256AJ70
Nanya NT511740C0J-60S
Nec 4217400-60
NEC 4218160-70
NEC 424400-70
NEC 424400-70
NEC 424400-70L
NEC D41256-12
NPN AAA4M204J-06A
NPN NN5116160AJ-60
OKI M5118160F-60J
OKI M514400A-07J
OKI M514400B-60SJ
OKI M514400B-60SJ
Panasonic MN4117400CSJ-60
Panasonic MN414400ASJ-06
Panasonic MN414400ASJ-07
Panasonic MN414400ASJ-07
RAMS DS80160 AG-60
RAMS DS80160 AG-60
RAMS DS80160 AG-60
Samsung KM41256AJ-15
Samsung KM44C1000BJ-6
Samsung KM44C1000BJ-7
Samsung KM44C4100AJ-7
Samsung KM44C4100AJ-7
SEC KM44C4100AK-6
SEC KM48C2100AJ-7
Siemens HYB5118160BSJ-60
Show last 31 lines
Siemens HYB514400BJ-60
SR416C1200-7
TC511000AJ-708
TC514400ASJ-70
TF014400J2C-70
TI TMS417400ADJ-60
TI TMS417400DJ-60
TI TMS4256FML
TI TMS44100DJ-70
TI TMS44400DJ-70
TI TMS44C256DJ-80
TI TSM44400DJ-70
TI Z44400DJ-70
TMS418160DZ-60
TMS44400DJ-70
Toshiba TC514100ASJ-70
Toshiba TC514400ASJL-70
UTC ST514400J-70
V53C404HK60
VG2617400CJ-6
Winbond W514400BJ-6
ZR4040DJ
HM514400BS7
HY5117400JC-70
LGS GM71C17400AJ6
VG2617400DJ-6
SIEMENS HYB5117400BJ-60
HM514400ALS6
RAMS DR4400AG-70
HM514400BS7
EDO chips: (again, notice the digits before the speed rating: 404, 405, 4007, 4E8, 165, 409, 40C5D, etc.
Hynix-Hyundai HY514404ALJ-60F
LGS GM71C18163BJ6
Micron MT4C4007JDJ-6
Micron MT4C4M4E8DJ-6
Mitsubishi M5M418165BJ
Mitsubishi M5M4V16405CJ-6
NPN NN5116405BJ-50
SEC KM5322204AW-6
Siemens HYB3116405BT-60
TI TMS417409ADJ-60
Siemens HYB3116405BT-60
Alliance AS4C1M16E5-60JC
MEC MA418164 AG-60
Siemek HYB5117405BJ-60
TG 5117405BJ-60
LGS GM71C17403BJ6
Nanya NT5117405AJ-60
TI TMS418169DZ-60
NPN NN5118165AJ-60
NoName F17403J
TMS417409DJ-70
Hynix-Hyundai HY5117404AJ-60
S4004SE1DJ-06
Micron MT4C4M4E8DJ-6
Nanya NT511740B5J-60
Mitsubishi M5M417405CJ-6S
Nec 4218165-60
Mitsubishi M5M418165CJ-6
TI TMS518169DZ-60
NEC 4218165-60
LGS GM71C4403CJ60
Micron MT4C4M4E8DJ-6
tm TECH T224402AJ-60
MT4C4007JDJ-6
Hyunday-Hynix HY5118164BJC-60
NPN NN5118165AJ-60
LGS GM71C17403BJ6
Siemtek HYB5117405BJ-60
Toshiba TC51v17405cst-60
AFL NA511740C5D-60J

I hope, this will help.

Last edited by rpocc on 2024-01-30, 07:52. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 12 of 13, by RayeR

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rmay635703 wrote on 2024-01-29, 00:38:

I owned PCCHIPS infamous first try at pc100 but only at 90mhz FSB. Finding ram that worked was notoriously terrible, I ended up using simms because sdram gave so much trouble

I have such PC-Chips MB with faked FSB 100 (90MHz real) and it works fine with 128MB PC133 DIMM (there's 3,3V/5V jumper). But the memory speed benefit of using DIMM over SIMMs there was very small (I expected bigger difference) so you don't need to be worried about. 😀

BTW there's possible to mod EDO memory by tweaking one pin to trun them into FPM memory, sometimes useful for one who has only EDO and need to run on old 486 system that mostly don't supported EDO.

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Reply 13 of 13, by rmay635703

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RayeR wrote on 2024-01-29, 22:19:
rmay635703 wrote on 2024-01-29, 00:38:

I owned PCCHIPS infamous first try at pc100 but only at 90mhz FSB. Finding ram that worked was notoriously terrible, I ended up using simms because sdram gave so much trouble

I have such PC-Chips MB with faked FSB 100 (90MHz real) and it works fine with 128MB PC133 DIMM (there's 3,3V/5V jumper). But the memory speed benefit of using DIMM over SIMMs there was very small (I expected bigger difference) so you don't need to be worried about. 😀

BTW there's possible to mod EDO memory by tweaking one pin to trun them into FPM memory, sometimes useful for one who has only EDO and need to run on old 486 system that mostly don't supported EDO.

I was tech forward )but cheap( when it came to ram, HD, windows back in the day.

What is strange is that I had all manner of compatibility and stability issues back “in the day” with my computer shopper beige boxes.
But a few years later using the exact same motherboard/ CPUs I never had a problem with later ram, video cards and upgrades.

Why this was I can only speculate, but I’m guessing “cheap generic “ ram likely wasn’t running as close to the edge a few years later.

I always ran Cyrix and had the first pr200, ran rock solid until I tried expanding the 8mb of ram later that year.

Myself and a lot of other folks had problems with the 75mhz FSB back in the day, yet now days even using those same boards I can run 83mhz rock solid.

One if my friends had a 40mhz AMD 486 and he too had stability problems , which he had to sort and then when Win95 came along he had to drop to 33mhz because it wouldn’t run stable at 40mhz FSB even with different cache/ram timings.

You really never hear about this type of problem now but for some reason it was a big problem early on to the point you had a lot of computer shops that wouldnt build using certain CPUs, ram and components.

Even my legendary PCCHIPS m571 pr233 vertex box had major lockup issues to the point I had to install an old video card. Few years later I installed 128mb of ram and all the stability issues I had went away, used the 32mb sdram in a different pc and no stability problems. I think I even tested the same ram back in that machine with onboard video and it was fine, (I may have updated the bios at some point however)