Intel is always Intel regarding stability and often compatibility as well.
This summer I've bought a few VIA-equipped motherboards (2x SS7 and one MSI694T - Tualatin). Last time I owned a Via-based motherboard was over 20 years ago - and that lasted for one week (bought an Abit VA-6 mut swapped it for a BE6-II).

Then again, especially if you intend to use Tualatin and go for a 815-based chipset, you will lose some - one example is supported RAM. 512MB on 815, 1,5GB on Via 133T. If you intend to use Win98, this is not an issue.

AGP compatibility can be better with intel. There is somewhere a thread contemplating more on these (Intel, Via and SiS).

oh2ftu wrote on 2023-08-07, 08:57:

Intel is always Intel regarding stability and often compatibility as well. This summer I've bought a few VIA-equipped motherboar […]
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Intel is always Intel regarding stability and often compatibility as well.
This summer I've bought a few VIA-equipped motherboards (2x SS7 and one MSI694T - Tualatin). Last time I owned a Via-based motherboard was over 20 years ago - and that lasted for one week (bought an Abit VA-6 mut swapped it for a BE6-II).

Then again, especially if you intend to use Tualatin and go for a 815-based chipset, you will lose some - one example is supported RAM. 512MB on 815, 1,5GB on Via 133T. If you intend to use Win98, this is not an issue.

AGP compatibility can be better with intel. There is somewhere a thread contemplating more on these (Intel, Via and SiS).

I see. Thanks a lot for the info. Tualatin would be the best of the best in the Pentium 3 realm but not sure yet if my buddy wants to walk the extra mile price-wise. We have not talked about it yet. I was interested in getting a Tualatin for a short peroid of time before I learned here at Vogons that I would be better to get a more advanced Athlon instead. It is possible to a similar performance at lower cost this way.

But in case he wants to get the extra mile the knowledge about the Tualatin you shared might come in handy for him.

In general it is just as I though then. Going with intel would be the much saver route then.

That's a interesting question. My first rig is a socket 370 with a intel 815 chipset and a pentium 3 800mhz coppermine. I never had th chance to compare it with other chipsets but I am happy with it. It runs good and not much work was needed to make it working like a champ.

I would recommend using a socket 370 intel 815 board.

One reason for conflicting advice is that the situation depends on the operating system you want to use. DOS, Win9x and WinNT/2k/XP have quite different requirements leading to different recommendations or indeed compromises.

You don't mention what OS(s) you want to run, but that would be a good thing to have clear. To give you an idea:
- DOS: as little RAM as possible, ideally 16MB but definitely no more than 64MB. ISA slots very very nice to have. Chipset drivers a non-issue: i440BX is good, but basically anything goes so long as it has ISA.
- Win9x: 64-512MB RAM (not more), AGP very nice to have, 4x more so. More performance better. Chipset drivers can be a pain: i440BX very good. i815 also excellent, As is SiS 635. Via fine so long as you don't want a Sound Blaster Live.
- DOS *and* Win9x: here the fun starts. You want ISA and 64MB RAM, but also the fastest machine you can mount that on. Via ApolloPro133A/T offer ISA but also 133MHz FSB support.
- WinNT/2k/XP: as much RAM as you can get, as fast a CPU as you can get. IMHO you don't want to combine it with DOS or Win9x, and you want something faster than a P3...

But an aside: Slot1 and So370 are essentially electrically identical, so every chipset used on the one could be used on the other too. Do note that there are three versions of So370: PPGA, FC-PGA and FC-PGA2. The pinout is subtly different and different voltages are available. There is limited interoperabilty: PPGA CPUs will run on PPGA and FC-PGA sockets, but not FC-PGA2. FC-PGA CPUs will run on FC-PGA and FC-PGA2 sockets but not on PPGA and FC-PGA2 CPUs will only run on FC-PGA2 sockets. Note that the same situation applies to Slot1, but without the clarity offered by different sockets: depending on the VRM revision, you might only be able to run certain CPUs. Rather than dive down that rabbit hole, just be sure to choose a CPU that is officially supported (see vendor website or manual) for your board, or choose a board that officially supports your chosen CPU.

As for the Via driver issues - this is more politics than anything else. To get a stable install, you need to install chipset drivers before others. Microsoft includes Intel chipset drivers in Windows, but not any other chipset drivers. So with Intel chipsets, you just install OS then you're good to install any other drivers. With other chipset manufacturers, if you install anything else before the chipset drivers, expect major performance and stability issues - but do it properly and they're generally as solid as Intel's Windows built in ones.

dionb wrote on 2023-08-07, 11:39:

One reason for conflicting advice is that the situation depends on the operating system you want to use. DOS, Win9x and WinNT/2k […]
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One reason for conflicting advice is that the situation depends on the operating system you want to use. DOS, Win9x and WinNT/2k/XP have quite different requirements leading to different recommendations or indeed compromises.

You don't mention what OS(s) you want to run, but that would be a good thing to have clear. To give you an idea:
- DOS: as little RAM as possible, ideally 16MB but definitely no more than 64MB. ISA slots very very nice to have. Chipset drivers a non-issue: i440BX is good, but basically anything goes so long as it has ISA.
- Win9x: 64-512MB RAM (not more), AGP very nice to have, 4x more so. More performance better. Chipset drivers can be a pain: i440BX very good. i815 also excellent, As is SiS 635. Via fine so long as you don't want a Sound Blaster Live.
- DOS *and* Win9x: here the fun starts. You want ISA and 64MB RAM, but also the fastest machine you can mount that on. Via ApolloPro133A/T offer ISA but also 133MHz FSB support.
- WinNT/2k/XP: as much RAM as you can get, as fast a CPU as you can get. IMHO you don't want to combine it with DOS or Win9x, and you want something faster than a P3...

But an aside: Slot1 and So370 are essentially electrically identical, so every chipset used on the one could be used on the other too. Do note that there are three versions of So370: PPGA, FC-PGA and FC-PGA2. The pinout is subtly different and different voltages are available. There is limited interoperabilty: PPGA CPUs will run on PPGA and FC-PGA sockets, but not FC-PGA2. FC-PGA CPUs will run on FC-PGA and FC-PGA2 sockets but not on PPGA and FC-PGA2 CPUs will only run on FC-PGA2 sockets. Note that the same situation applies to Slot1, but without the clarity offered by different sockets: depending on the VRM revision, you might only be able to run certain CPUs. Rather than dive down that rabbit hole, just be sure to choose a CPU that is officially supported (see vendor website or manual) for your board, or choose a board that officially supports your chosen CPU.

As for the Via driver issues - this is more politics than anything else. To get a stable install, you need to install chipset drivers before others. Microsoft includes Intel chipset drivers in Windows, but not any other chipset drivers. So with Intel chipsets, you just install OS then you're good to install any other drivers. With other chipset manufacturers, if you install anything else before the chipset drivers, expect major performance and stability issues - but do it properly and they're generally as solid as Intel's Windows built in ones.

Thx for the further information It is good to know that with proper handling a system with Via chipset runs as well as intel chipset. And yes the conflicting info about VIA was really confusing.

From a modern retro gaming perspective the opinions where mixed. Some people liked it other people recommended it.

Contemporary reviews were a different beast altogether. They opinion of the Appolo pro 133 line especially the latter versions was rather postiv.

And my apologies for the OS The system is supposed to be used with Win 98SE.

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-07, 11:51:

Thx for the further information It is good to know that with proper handling a system with Via chipset runs as well as intel chipset. And yes the conflicting info about VIA was really confusing.

Indeed. Do watch out for the SBLive compatibility issue - the Via 686B south bridge really doesn't play well with it. If you want an SBLive/Audigy, make sure you don't have a motherboard with the 686B.

From a modern retro gaming perspective the opinions where mixed. Some people liked it other people recommended it.

Contemporary reviews were a different beast altogether. They opinion of the Appolo pro 133 line especially the latter versions was rather postiv.

Distinguish between the (confusingly named) ApolloPro133 (82C693A) and ApolloPro133A (82C694X)

The ApolloPro133 was the first 133MHz FSB SDRAM chipset, also introducing ATA-66 but otherwise still basically the same feature set as the i440BX. However chipset drivers still pretty immature (so not perfectly stable) and it was very slow - so much so that an i440BX on 100MHz FSB could perform in the same ballpark.

The ApolloPro133A followed soon after and was a very different beast. Clock-for-clock its memory performance still wasn't as good as i440BX was, but it was vastly better than the ApolloPro133 and - relevantly - better than the i820 chipset paired with PC600 or 700 RDRAM, which cost easily twice as much. It also offered AGP 2.0 4x and ATA-66 or later -100. So paired with a 133MHz FSB P3 it was cheaper than BX, faster than BX (unless you OCd the BX) and vastly cheaper than i820 despite offering similar performance and features. That made it the go-to pairing with P3 for the better part of a year.

Only once Intel realized that Rambus was commercially dead and they needed an SDRAM-based mid-range chipset for P3 which became the i815 did Intel have chipset that was more interesting, but it was still more expensive than the ApolloPro133A and supported more RAM - which became relevant as Windows 2000 had been released by then and really liked all the RAM you could feed it.

That was then. Today you can see all the chipsets in parallel and matters are different. Win2k runs much better on faster Athlon/P4 CPUs, so the extra RAM support of the ApolloPro133A over i815 is less relevant and a lot of retro gamers want to pair their P3 with a Sound Blaster Live or Audigy, which won't work with most ApolloPro133A boards with 686B southbridge. So that is a mark against the ApolloPro133A. However if you want DOS, you want ISA, and where Intel ditched ISA in the 800-series chipsets, Via retained the PCI-to-ISA bridge in their southbridges. That makes the ApolloPro133A the better choice. So once again: it all depends on your requirements, and differences in those requirements explain different recommendations.

@dionb Thanks a lot for the further info. Distinguishing between the AppolloPro 133 and the AppoloPro 133a seems to be very important. That's valid information to know to choose a proper via motherboard.

Also thanks for explaining the history of the Rambus story.

The requirements a rather simple. it is going to be a Win 98Se Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3 for games from the years 97 to 99. Sound Blaster Live or Audigy seems to be good sound cards as well.To be able to use them would be a big plus . So I think for that requirement an Intel 815 system should be the best choice for my buddy.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-08-07, 10:41:

I would recommend using a socket 370 intel 815 board.

I agree, the socket 370 & intel 815 board is probably the way to go. It's the sweet spot for AGP at x4 with a 133mz fsb processor.

I have a 440 BX system. It's nice & compatible and I needed 3.3v AGP . Curiously, it works with up to 768MB MB of RAM even though the manual says it shouldn't. I added a Voodoo 3, USB2 and a fast IDE controller and it's decent, rock solid. But if I didn't have that Gateway and I wanted a PIII build, I'd look at intel 815 boards w/ socket 370.

I had some Via boards back in the day, but getting those 4 in 1 drivers to work was unpleasant. Maybe things matured and it's better today, but I'd need good reason to back there again.

i815+ Aureal Vortex 2 is considered a rather problematic bundle under Windows 9x.
Rumor has it that Vortex only works properly on BX.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-08, 03:28:

i815+ Aureal Vortex 2 is considered a rather problematic bundle under Windows 9x.
Rumor has it that Vortex only works properly on BX.

It works on most platforms, as long as you stick to DirectX 7.0.
I have Aureal Vortex 2 cards in two of my systems: one is on an Asus TUSL2-C (815EP)/Tualatin 1.4 GHz build, and the other is on a Gigabyte GA-BX2000+ (440BX)/Coppermine 1 GHz. They both work fine.

Sorry for hijacking the thread but potential problems about aural vortex 2 and i815 with win 98 se caught my attention. As of now I am still using only the onboard audio on my motherboard but my system is soon going to be upgraded to it's final form.

it will get p3 coppermine 1 ghz (the cpu is already purchased and the way to me) and i will also get a real sound card. To be frank a aural vortex 2 card was my first choice.

Are there some good sound cards for win 98 and i815 that have a less problamtic reputation?

The statement from @bloodem is encouraging though to certain degree. As of now I cannot go beyond direct x 7.0 because I am using a Riva TNT 2. In the long run I will go beyond DirectX 7.0 though.

A geforce 4 as the final gpu of my rig is also on the my purchase list.

To future proof the sound card of my system Aural Vortex 2 might not be the safest bet.

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-07, 17:48:

@dionb Thanks a lot for the further info. Distinguishing between the AppolloPro 133 and the AppoloPro 133a seems to be very important. That's valid information to know to choose a proper via motherboard.

Also thanks for explaining the history of the Rambus story.

The requirements a rather simple. it is going to be a Win 98Se Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3 for games from the years 97 to 99. Sound Blaster Live or Audigy seems to be good sound cards as well.To be able to use them would be a big plus . So I think for that requirement an Intel 815 system should be the best choice for my buddy.

For that timeframe, I'd go with a 440BX and an FSB100 Coppermine - a P2B with a P3-600E would be ideal and cost effective.

retep_110 wrote on 2023-08-08, 06:22:

Sorry for hijacking the thread but potential problems about aural vortex 2 and i815 with win 98 se caught my attention.

Somewhere I found an interview with the Aureal developers of the year around 2000.
They wrote that they would try to fix the problem in the drivers, but something was missing in the i815.

And there is a special version of the drivers "not pci detect", whatever that means.
I have 815+Vortex 2 under Windows 2000. It works so-so, to be honest. Although it shouldn't, because the official drivers are the same buggy ones.

The same Dungeon Keeper 2 or sounds drop out, or the PC is rebooted. 🙁
Although the game itself crashes under a any OS on any hardware 😀

Carcenomy wrote on 2023-08-08, 06:33:

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-07, 17:48:

@dionb Thanks a lot for the further info. Distinguishing between the AppolloPro 133 and the AppoloPro 133a seems to be very important. That's valid information to know to choose a proper via motherboard.

Also thanks for explaining the history of the Rambus story.

The requirements a rather simple. it is going to be a Win 98Se Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3 for games from the years 97 to 99. Sound Blaster Live or Audigy seems to be good sound cards as well.To be able to use them would be a big plus . So I think for that requirement an Intel 815 system should be the best choice for my buddy.

For that timeframe, I'd go with a 440BX and an FSB100 Coppermine - a P2B with a P3-600E would be ideal and cost-effective.

Thanks for your recommendation. It seems that is exactly what my buddy wants. I have talked to him again today and after some research on his own, he came to the conclusion that intel 440bx is the best for him.

One reason is that he was amazed to see how hassle-free my 440bx system works despite the fact that i am total beginner in retro computing.

The other reason is that he is into let's call it living history". He wants a system that was accurate for the time frame of the voodoo cards to see what these cards could do with contemporary hardware. So he will look into a 440 bx system with pentium 3 between 450 and 600 MHz.

He has not decided which mobo to pick but the p2b would be a good contender. After all, that's my mainboard as well which means it is also that board that gave him a good impression of the intel chipset in the first place.

I can just recommend the p2b to him because I do not know other motherboards from the 440bx line.

@all but in general besides Asus mobos from Abit and Gigabyte should also be save to recommend the 440bx line I guess?

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-08, 08:44:

@all but in general besides Asus mobos from Abit and Gigabyte should also be save to recommend the 440bx line I guess?

I think Abit kinda has a reputation for bad caps in this period.

Personally, I've had good experience with Chaintech. But generally with 440BX boards the brand doesn't matter too much. Just check that the particular board revision supports Coppermines and pick a configuration (RAM/ISA slots) that you like.

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-08, 08:44:

Thanks for your recommendation. It seems that is exactly what my buddy wants. I have talked to him again today and after some re […]
Show full quote

Carcenomy wrote on 2023-08-08, 06:33:

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-07, 17:48:

@dionb Thanks a lot for the further info. Distinguishing between the AppolloPro 133 and the AppoloPro 133a seems to be very important. That's valid information to know to choose a proper via motherboard.

Also thanks for explaining the history of the Rambus story.

The requirements a rather simple. it is going to be a Win 98Se Voodoo 2 or Voodoo 3 for games from the years 97 to 99. Sound Blaster Live or Audigy seems to be good sound cards as well.To be able to use them would be a big plus . So I think for that requirement an Intel 815 system should be the best choice for my buddy.

For that timeframe, I'd go with a 440BX and an FSB100 Coppermine - a P2B with a P3-600E would be ideal and cost-effective.

Thanks for your recommendation. It seems that is exactly what my buddy wants. I have talked to him again today and after some research on his own, he came to the conclusion that intel 440bx is the best for him.

One reason is that he was amazed to see how hassle-free my 440bx system works despite the fact that i am total beginner in retro computing.

The other reason is that he is into let's call it living history". He wants a system that was accurate for the time frame of the voodoo cards to see what these cards could do with contemporary hardware. So he will look into a 440 bx system with pentium 3 between 450 and 600 MHz.

He has not decided which mobo to pick but the p2b would be a good contender. After all, that's my mainboard as well which means it is also that board that gave him a good impression of the intel chipset in the first place.

I can just recommend the p2b to him because I do not know other motherboards from the 440bx line.

@all but in general besides Asus mobos from Abit and Gigabyte should also be save to recommend the 440bx line I guess?

jheronimus is on the money, Abits in that era were somewhat prone to cap failure and Chaintechs are a good option. Gigabyte GA-6BXC was a solid choice, I'm just a sucker for an old ASUS - my own Pentium III machine is a P2B-D with voltmodded P3-800s.

bloodem wrote on 2023-08-08, 05:51:

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-08, 03:28:

i815+ Aureal Vortex 2 is considered a rather problematic bundle under Windows 9x.
Rumor has it that Vortex only works properly on BX.

It works on most platforms, as long as you stick to DirectX 7.0.
I have Aureal Vortex 2 cards in two of my systems: one is on an Asus TUSL2-C (815EP)/Tualatin 1.4 GHz build, and the other is on a Gigabyte GA-BX2000+ (440BX)/Coppermine 1 GHz. They both work fine.

Interesting as I have a Asus TUSL2-C (815EP)/Tualatin 1.4 GHz build with vortex 2 using the latest dx that the os will run and have yet to have a problem with it. The system does run a limited set of games so maybe why I have never had a problem.

shevalier wrote on 2023-08-08, 07:13:

Somewhere I found an interview with the Aureal developers of the year around 2000. They wrote that they would try to fix the pro […]
Show full quote

retep_110 wrote on 2023-08-08, 06:22:

Sorry for hijacking the thread but potential problems about aural vortex 2 and i815 with win 98 se caught my attention.

Somewhere I found an interview with the Aureal developers of the year around 2000.
They wrote that they would try to fix the problem in the drivers, but something was missing in the i815.

And there is a special version of the drivers "not pci detect", whatever that means.
I have 815+Vortex 2 under Windows 2000. It works so-so, to be honest. Although it shouldn't, because the official drivers are the same buggy ones.

The same Dungeon Keeper 2 or sounds drop out, or the PC is rebooted. 🙁
Although the game itself crashes under a any OS on any hardware 😀

That's interesting. I will try to find the interview as well. In general it sounds like a gamble to get a Aureal Vortex Card when using a i815.

The safest bet would be the look for decent alternative sound card .

jheronimus wrote on 2023-08-08, 09:32:

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-08, 08:44:

@all but in general besides Asus mobos from Abit and Gigabyte should also be save to recommend the 440bx line I guess?

I think Abit kinda has a reputation for bad caps in this period.

Personally, I've had good experience with Chaintech. But generally with 440BX boards the brand doesn't matter too much. Just check that the particular board revision supports Coppermines and pick a configuration (RAM/ISA slots) that you like.

Thanks a lot for the warning about the bad caps. That's good to know and reason to avoid abit. And it seems you right. We went through many different reviews of different intel 440bx boards and most of them seem to be really good.

Carcenomy wrote on 2023-08-08, 09:58:

theiceman085 wrote on 2023-08-08, 08:44:

Thanks for your recommendation. It seems that is exactly what my buddy wants. I have talked to him again today and after some re […]
Show full quote

Carcenomy wrote on 2023-08-08, 06:33:

For that timeframe, I'd go with a 440BX and an FSB100 Coppermine - a P2B with a P3-600E would be ideal and cost-effective.

Thanks for your recommendation. It seems that is exactly what my buddy wants. I have talked to him again today and after some research on his own, he came to the conclusion that intel 440bx is the best for him.

One reason is that he was amazed to see how hassle-free my 440bx system works despite the fact that i am total beginner in retro computing.

The other reason is that he is into let's call it living history". He wants a system that was accurate for the time frame of the voodoo cards to see what these cards could do with contemporary hardware. So he will look into a 440 bx system with pentium 3 between 450 and 600 MHz.

He has not decided which mobo to pick but the p2b would be a good contender. After all, that's my mainboard as well which means it is also that board that gave him a good impression of the intel chipset in the first place.

I can just recommend the p2b to him because I do not know other motherboards from the 440bx line.

@all but in general besides Asus mobos from Abit and Gigabyte should also be save to recommend the 440bx line I guess?

jheronimus is on the money, Abits in that era were somewhat prone to cap failure and Chaintechs are a good option. Gigabyte GA-6BXC was a solid choice, I'm just a sucker for an old ASUS - my own Pentium III machine is a P2B-D with voltmodded P3-800s.

Thanks a lot for mentioning Chaintech as an alternative option. The same goes for the Gigabyte.

I can understand that you like the old ASUS a lot. When researching for my own rig I also came to the conclusion that the Asus p2b might be something for me. And I was right. I really like that chipset.

I was lucky though get a complete system with a Riva TNT 2 card already.

We have not a comparable system for my buddy so he has to start from scratch. That's the reason why we asked about other mainboards from other companies in case we cannot locate a decent Asus P2b.