DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:22:

There was a time frame where capacitors tended to be less good then before and after... But not only the factor quality is impor […]
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strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:10:

Is it almost invariably true that simply with their age now 20-25 year old boards will need capacitors replaced?

There was a time frame where capacitors tended to be less good then before and after...
But not only the factor quality is important.... Was it used a lot? Did the system run them hot? ...
All this together formed a time period where caps tended to explode a lot... Especially in hot systems you use every day.... like PCs, Monitors, Test Equipment and TVs.

I have at least 10 Mainboards in my repair pile with exploded/leaked/shorted capacitors.... and not enough time 😁

If all else fails, and the board looks dead, do you think it'll be worth one shot just to replace the caps and see if that's been the problem? On cursory visual inspection they *look* okay to my eye so far. If the board is most likely toast, I suppose at the very least it would be a helpful project to get my soldering skills back up to a better standard, and rather practice on a dead board than a known good one.

Main worry with this board now seems to be that it's southbridge and therefore nothing I can really do about it

Visual inspection isn't always 100%, sometimes caps dry out rather than bloat and leak.. You can at worst remove one or two from the VRM area and test them for capacitance and ESR, if caps are the issue those will certainly look dead.

IMO if it were the southbridge you would get something on a POST analyzer card, probably. If you get nothing, then the CPU is not executing code and that is probably because it's not getting proper power..

appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:32:

Visual inspection isn't always 100%, sometimes caps dry out rather than bloat and leak.. You can at worst remove one or two from the VRM area and test them for capacitance and ESR, if caps are the issue those will certainly look dead.

IMO if it were the southbridge you would get something on a POST analyzer card, probably. If you get nothing, then the CPU is not executing code and that is probably because it's not getting proper power..

Great, maybe all not lost. I am getting literally nothing at all beyond the click of the switch; no fans, no lights, no beep; zilch.

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:35:

appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:32:

Visual inspection isn't always 100%, sometimes caps dry out rather than bloat and leak.. You can at worst remove one or two from the VRM area and test them for capacitance and ESR, if caps are the issue those will certainly look dead.

IMO if it were the southbridge you would get something on a POST analyzer card, probably. If you get nothing, then the CPU is not executing code and that is probably because it's not getting proper power..

Great, maybe all not lost. I am getting literally nothing at all beyond the click of the switch; no fans, no lights, no beep; zilch.

That sounds like an electrical issue than a Southbridge problem to me really, I'd check the caps AND the VRMs..

Also there seems to be some.. weird gunk.. in the AGP slot, what is that? Could it be something conductive?

appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:43:

Also there seems to be some.. weird gunk.. in the AGP slot, what is that? Could it be something conductive?

Looks like hot glue ... Some manufacurers used it to "secure" things like connectors. Probably for extra security while shipping...

To glue down a graphics card is weird but something i could see some people do 😁

Like already said... only an ESR test will show if a cap is still ok.
I have one ( or 5 😏 ) of those super cheap component testers. They are cheap but quite a powerful tool to identify components or get a first idea of what could be wrong.

They do the same thing...
The colour tft one looks just a little bit more fancy and has an internal battery that can be recharged.
But on the orange one you can test smd components by just pressing them down on the pads right next to the ZIF socket...

Sidenote: I always have to laugh when i see the "TFXTDOL" branded ZIF sockets ... Thats probably the most creative way to look like "TEXTOOL" but being the cheapest copy ever 😁

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:10:

I've never had that particular motherboard, but my experience with Gigabyte motherboards has been good, and NF2 is good, though I understand that Via is better for Win98 compatibility. It will almost certainly need the capacitors replaced.

I had an MSI K7N2 from when I upgraded my former employers' personal computer to a Core 2, and it seemed fine. But it eventually began to POST erratically, until It finally died. My understanding on looking around was that it was most likely one of the casualties of the switch to lead free solder, combined with heat and poor case cooling.
[/quote]

Ah, yeah, looks like the nForce is a bit too modern to go with the Voodoo 3 route. I have always had good experience with gigabyte boards, too.

Is it almost invariably true that simply with their age now 20-25 year old boards will need capacitors replaced?
[/quote]

It's funny how one gets reminded that they are old. The events that happened on this day 22 years ago are fresh in my mind, but many people were either very small children, or not yet born. There was a scandal involving industrial espionage that caused enough of an issue to get a Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:43:

Also there seems to be some.. weird gunk.. in the AGP slot, what is that? Could it be something conductive?

Yes I just noticed that late last night and picked a bit off - does look like it's hot glue! Apart from the evidence of glue, it seems like it had been quite a nicely put together machine in it's time.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:55:

Looks like hot glue ... Some manufacurers used it to "secure" things like connectors. Probably for extra security while shipping […]
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appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:43:

Also there seems to be some.. weird gunk.. in the AGP slot, what is that? Could it be something conductive?

Looks like hot glue ... Some manufacurers used it to "secure" things like connectors. Probably for extra security while shipping...

To glue down a graphics card is weird but something i could see some people do 😁

Like already said... only an ESR test will show if a cap is still ok.
I have one ( or 5 😏 ) of those super cheap component testers. They are cheap but quite a powerful tool to identify components or get a first idea of what could be wrong.
61PX5vHRu9L.jpg61mz_loh9_l._sl1000_.jpg

They do the same thing...
The colour tft one looks just a little bit more fancy and has an internal battery that can be recharged.
But on the orange one you can test smd components by just pressing them down on the pads right next to the ZIF socket...

Sidenote: I always have to laugh when i see the "TFXTDOL" branded ZIF sockets ... Thats probably the most creative way to look like "TEXTOOL" but being the cheapest copy ever 😁

Those devices look terrific, I'll need to pick one up - can see it being very helpful in other situations, too. Thanks for the tip

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:29:

If all else fails, and the board looks dead, do you think it'll be worth one shot just to replace the caps

No. You were unable to measure resistance, you wont be able to replace caps.

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:29:

a helpful project to get my soldering skills back up to a better standard, and rather practice on a dead board than a known good one.

what would you learn by going from dead board to a dead board? You wont know if your soldering is to blame. If you want to practice soldering go to Goodwill/recycluing center and pick up obsolete but still woking old electronics, practice desoldering and soldering back components on that, that way you will be able to verify if/when you kill it.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-09-11, 20:38:

No. You were unable to measure resistance, you wont be able to replace caps. […]
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strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:29:

If all else fails, and the board looks dead, do you think it'll be worth one shot just to replace the caps

No. You were unable to measure resistance, you wont be able to replace caps.

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 13:29:

a helpful project to get my soldering skills back up to a better standard, and rather practice on a dead board than a known good one.

what would you learn by going from dead board to a dead board? You wont know if your soldering is to blame. If you want to practice soldering go to Goodwill/recycluing center and pick up obsolete but still woking old electronics, practice desoldering and soldering back components on that, that way you will be able to verify if/when you kill it.

Do you mean "unable" as in "the readings showed no resistance" or unable as in "intellectually unable"?

As someone mentioned, the pin diagram I'd initially looked at was probably misleading, so I'll recheck the resistance anyway and I really do need a slightly better and less oily multimeter.

Testing the caps with a component tester sounds worthwhile to me, and if nothing else I'll chock it up to useful learning because it's prompting me to return both to basic theory and also getting me back to the tactile/experiential learning of just how much heat and force etc things take to move or secure. Silver linings, and, nothing ventured nothing gained. This is what I get for spending the last 20 odd years only really working with Lucas circuits on old cars.

To be fair changing caps isnt that hard.
The most important part is patience (to not rip traces and pads off the board) and a soldering iron with some thermal mass to get the heat in the ground plane of the mobo.
A cheap manual desoldering Pump (if you dont plan to do that on a regular basis) and solder wick are essential too to get the holes cleaned properly.
Use leaded solder with flux core. Thats the easyest and beginner friendlyest way to start soldering.

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-11, 21:08:

To be fair changing caps isnt that hard. The most important part is patience (to not rip traces and pads off the board) and a so […]
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To be fair changing caps isnt that hard.
The most important part is patience (to not rip traces and pads off the board) and a soldering iron with some thermal mass to get the heat in the ground plane of the mobo.
A cheap manual desoldering Pump (if you dont plan to do that on a regular basis) and solder wick are essential too to get the holes cleaned properly.
Use leaded solder with flux core. Thats the easyest and beginner friendlyest way to start soldering.

Thank you. I've got a halfway decent iron, and do plan on doing this kind of thing more often again, so your tips on helpful kit is really appreciated. I need to work on the finesse of these more delicate jobs. I'm reasonably good at soldering on the classic car projects and RC things, strong and reasonably neat connections, but those tasks usually involve large copper spades and copper wire with enough bulk to really saturate the strands with solder. They are a great place to see principles in action though, like the effect of heat on resistance etc.

Most interesting use with an electric probe so far has been diathermy in surgical theatre before I specialised away from that - an appreciation of frequency definitely helped in that setting. . .

DerBaum wrote on 2023-09-11, 21:08:

To be fair changing caps isnt that hard. The most important part is patience (to not rip traces and pads off the board) and a so […]
Show full quote

To be fair changing caps isnt that hard.
The most important part is patience (to not rip traces and pads off the board) and a soldering iron with some thermal mass to get the heat in the ground plane of the mobo.
A cheap manual desoldering Pump (if you dont plan to do that on a regular basis) and solder wick are essential too to get the holes cleaned properly.
Use leaded solder with flux core. Thats the easyest and beginner friendlyest way to start soldering.

I cheat - I gently pull on each cap with my left hand while holding the soldering iron in my right, heating the solder joints on the back side of the board, alternating back and forth until the cap comes out. I then hold the new cap against the solder dots (again with my left hand) and heat the solder dots, back and forth, until the new cap is fully seated. It's more time consuming than having a proper solder sucker, but I've recapped about ten motherboards this way with no issues at all.

strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 20:57:

Do you mean "unable" as in "the readings showed no resistance" or unable as in "intellectually unable"?

No, I didnt call you stupid 😀 Lack of basic knowledge and practice. I would fail same way if I tried to replace oil pump in a bike with no research.

Your meter is fine. You can switch it to the bottom red selection (with picture of diode) for beeping short detection.
Bad electrolytic caps wont prevent power supply from turning on.

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-09-11, 21:42:

No, I didnt call you stupid :) Lack of basic knowledge and practice. I would fail same way if I tried to replace oil pump in a b […]
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strange_loop wrote on 2023-09-11, 20:57:

Do you mean "unable" as in "the readings showed no resistance" or unable as in "intellectually unable"?

No, I didnt call you stupid 😀 Lack of basic knowledge and practice. I would fail same way if I tried to replace oil pump in a bike with no research.

Your meter is fine. You can switch it to the bottom red selection (with picture of diode) for beeping short detection.
Bad electrolytic caps wont prevent power supply from turning on.

They will if they failed short. Which they can.

capacitor plague. recap. any other athlon xp motherboard will also be susceptible to same. nb is fine unless the heatsink actually fell off.

Its super rare to get electrolytic cap fail short, and even in those rare instances its mostly due to physical damage. I havent had one in my hands in over 20 years of fixing crap, saw it only once in YT video 😀

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-09-12, 07:01:

Its super rare to get electrolytic cap fail short, and even in those rare instances its mostly due to physical damage. I havent had one in my hands in over 20 years of fixing crap, saw it only once in YT video 😀

It happened to me on a VLB graphics card the other day, resulted in an explosive tantalum capacitor on the power lane as well. Scary. It happens..

appiah4 wrote on 2023-09-12, 08:59:

rasz_pl wrote on 2023-09-12, 07:01:

Its super rare to get electrolytic cap fail short, and even in those rare instances its mostly due to physical damage. I havent had one in my hands in over 20 years of fixing crap, saw it only once in YT video 😀

It happened to me on a VLB graphics card the other day, resulted in an explosive tantalum capacitor on the power lane as well. Scary. It happens..

Happened to me just a month ago on a 386 Highscreen Laptop.
My smoke was pink 😁
Thats what i call magic smoke 😁