sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-12, 19:39:

Regarding the motherboard you recommended: there's ASUS P4P800 Rev:2.00A Intel 865PE ICH5R Socket 478 motherboard, ASRock 775i65G R2.0 LGA775 Motherboard and ASRock 775i65GV mATX Motherboard. Out of these 3, I'm still conflicted between the first two. What's your take?

Any particular reason you want to go Intel rather than, as someone else suggested, an Athlon XP? I'm a huge Intel fanboy, but... the reality is that the late late 98SE era happens to coincide with a rather bad period of Intel's history.

P4P800 is a socket 478 board, so you're looking at 90nm Preshot HotBurst P4s. Or older Northwoods. Meh.

ASRock 775i65G R2.0 is one of those rare newer LGA775 i865 boards, so that will run all the 65nm C2D/C2Qs. Realistically, 98SE doesn't support multiple cores, so... you could grab a Celeron 460 if any exist on eBay and have a rather outstanding 98SE machine that probably guzzles 1/3 of the power of the Preshot. Or get a dual/quad core that you can dual boot into something else that supports more cores... except then you get into RAM issues, storage issues, etc.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-11-12, 19:46:

There's a sketchy Youtube video that proports to have NFS MW running in Windows 98 on a GeForce 6800. If you're going to go with a GeForce 6xxxx, 7xxx, 8xxx, or Radeon x8xx, you might as well go with PCIe instead of AGP. Sure, you'll no longer have "Official" driver support, but Windows 98 can run and install on much newer hardware than the Intel 800-series chipsets. You will need patches/workarounds for USB and memory, but those really aren't a big deal.

You'll have a lot more motherboard options with PCIe.

And what are you suggesting for storage? Most PCI-e boards are low on PATA, are you suggesting a SATA-based setup?

VivienM wrote on 2023-11-12, 18:22:

Having dug out my copy of it for my earlier post, I'm actually quite tempted to install it on my i5-3570 with the 7970. I assume it should fly... But the idea of swapping multiple CDs has discouraged me so far...

Well, I installed NFS Most Wanted... works fine, unless I want to install the widescreen fix, which doesn't support XP... and... presumably if I install it on a modern OS, that's going to run into SafeDisc issues... fun... and whatever other fun little glitches EA probably left in...

VivienM wrote on 2023-11-12, 20:09:

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-11-12, 19:46:

There's a sketchy Youtube video that proports to have NFS MW running in Windows 98 on a GeForce 6800. If you're going to go with a GeForce 6xxxx, 7xxx, 8xxx, or Radeon x8xx, you might as well go with PCIe instead of AGP. Sure, you'll no longer have "Official" driver support, but Windows 98 can run and install on much newer hardware than the Intel 800-series chipsets. You will need patches/workarounds for USB and memory, but those really aren't a big deal.

You'll have a lot more motherboard options with PCIe.

And what are you suggesting for storage? Most PCI-e boards are low on PATA, are you suggesting a SATA-based setup?

Yes and no. Some early SATA/PATA motherboards allow the user to set the SATA ports to "IDE Compatible" mode which allow two SATA ports to operate as primary or secondary master/slave with one of the PATA ports acting as the opposite. Later motherboards with 4 or more SATA ports in "IDE Compatible" mode offer IRQs 14 and 15 to the first 4 SATA ports to act as Primary and Secondary IDE channels.

Personally, I would use the SATA ports in AHCI mode (if available) with RLowe's AHCI driver for Windows 98. Works great.

Now, if you need a PATA optical drive for analog CD audio, you would either need a motherboard with at least 1 PATA connector (and Win98 drivers) or use a SATA-to-IDE adapter. I use SATA-to-IDE adapters for my SATA-exclusive motherboards so that I can have proper analog CD audio. They work on all of the SATA motherboards I have, so far.

Oh, I forgot to mention that I use SATA SSD's for almost all of my retro builds regardless of OS. I do sometimes use SD cards with a SATA-to-SD card adapter for light-weight OSs or slower systems.

VivienM wrote on 2023-11-12, 18:19:

ElectroSoldier wrote on 2023-11-12, 17:59:

About £200 would buy you a PC that is capable of playing any game of the era you want.

i7-3770 with a 750Ti

I agree with you about the ivy bridge, but just curious why you picked the 750Ti and not a higher-end 7xx card?

Because the 750Ti can be found as a low profile card, it can fit into something like an HP Elite 8300 because it doesnt need external power and those 8300s can be had for £50-70 fully loaded with 8Gb RAM and a i7-3770.
On top of that its performance is not bad at all for most gaming needs. Especially when starting out.

I have Dell Dimension 8300 (intel 875 / S478). It can take up to 3.4GHz HT 800FSB Northwood or 3.4GHz Extreme Edition Gallatin. All drivers are available for Windows 98 SE and it has official intel drivers for Win9X. Integrated AC97 (AD1980) sound works, it has wdm audio drivers only (no vxd drivers). Even dos sound works with sbemu and integrated SoundMax AD1980. Graphics card at the moment is GeForce 6800 GX.

Windows 98 SE is installed with setup /p i command, without it, it conflicted with graphics and did not install vga drivers correctly, other than that, all the steps are simple, also ps/2 keyboard seems to work better than my usb keyboard, it has other ps/2 port also for mouse, compatibility should be good.

Pentium 4 3.4GHz Extreme Edition (Gallatin) is faster, but EE CPU-s are more rare and expensive ones, also Nortwood Desktop P4-s are more cooler CPU-s, P4 2.80C HT 800FSB is about 69-70W and 3.4GHz is 89W, not 103W, like Gallatin and Prescott @ same speed. For me P4 has enough speed for Window 98, many go up to FX5xxx series with AGP graphics and up to 45.23 drivers for better older game support.

Thanks so much to everyone who replied! So I read through the posts and tried to understand as much as I could. I've also binged on PhilComputerLabs' videos and am thinking to choose either of these:

1. Asus P5KPL-AM SE with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-P43T-ES3G with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M with AGP Radeon X800, SB Live! and AMD Sempron 3000+.

Any pointers or suggestions? Of course I've abandoned the idea of running NFSMW by now. At this point I'll just be happy with whichever of the above options will give best performance and minimum driver installation headaches.

sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-15, 20:44:

Any pointers or suggestions? Of course I've abandoned the idea of running NFSMW by now. At this point I'll just be happy with whichever of the above options will give best performance and minimum driver installation headaches.

Some motherboards based on the K8M800 chipset suffer from a microcode bug which severely reduces GPU performance under Win98. In certain cases, this can be fixed by downgrading the BIOS to the oldest available version, but that doesn't always work.

Also, avoid pairing a SBLive card with any motherboard which uses a VIA chipset. That combination can sometimes result in system instability. The problem was fixed on Creative's end with Audigy 2 and ZS cards.

sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-15, 20:44:

Thanks so much to everyone who replied! So I read through the posts and tried to understand as much as I could. I've also binged […]
Show full quote

Thanks so much to everyone who replied! So I read through the posts and tried to understand as much as I could. I've also binged on PhilComputerLabs' videos and am thinking to choose either of these:

1. Asus P5KPL-AM SE with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-P43T-ES3G with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M with AGP Radeon X800, SB Live! and AMD Sempron 3000+.

Please remind me - why are you going with a PCI-E setup for 98SE? Or at least your Intel options are...

I would probably pick the AMD out of those even though I've had huge troubles trying to build a 98SE machine out of a K8M800 (on a different board). That board appears to have official 98SE support... also, this is a socket 754, there should be some higher-performance single-core processors out there than a Sempron, no? Maybe not given the way the Athlon lineup migrated to 939 fairly quickly...

I forget if this came up earlier in the thread, but I'd be tempted to suggest an SB Audigy 2 ZS. The Audigy cards are just wonderful... although they might cost you more than your motherboard and CPU combo.

I concur with the x800 of you go PCIE. Much more stable in Windows 9x than GeForce PCIE cards due to drivers, in my opinion.

I suspect the Gigabyte P43 board will give you a smooth experience. I have a Gigabyte P45 board that works very well for me.

If I had more time tonight, I'd do a quick and dirty Win98 build using my Gigabyte board and your suggested components. Unfortunately, I have another commitment tonight.

Joseph_Joestar wrote on 2023-11-15, 21:05:

sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-15, 20:44:

Any pointers or suggestions? Of course I've abandoned the idea of running NFSMW by now. At this point I'll just be happy with whichever of the above options will give best performance and minimum driver installation headaches.

Some motherboards based on the K8M800 chipset suffer from a microcode bug which severely reduces GPU performance under Win98. In certain cases, this can be fixed by downgrading the BIOS to the oldest available version, but that doesn't always work.

Also, avoid pairing a SBLive card with any motherboard which uses a VIA chipset. That combination can sometimes result in system instability. The problem was fixed on Creative's end with Audigy 2 and ZS cards.

So the reason I have Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M as an option is because I've watched many videos by Phil and this seems to be his go-to mobo. e.g. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dzm29tJ2_14, or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rc4vivgEriU, or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXx8DI9Ns2k or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKMWlezaUeI. He seems to have no trouble making builds from that mobo, despite lack of chipset drivers.

Is there a way for me to find out whether this motherboard in particular (GA-K8VM800M) has the microcode bug you mentioned?

As for the soundcard, thanks for the tip! In that case I will get SB0350 SB Audigy 2 ZS instead.

VivienM wrote on 2023-11-16, 00:19:

Please remind me - why are you going with a PCI-E setup for 98SE? Or at least your Intel options are... […]
Show full quote

sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-15, 20:44:

Thanks so much to everyone who replied! So I read through the posts and tried to understand as much as I could. I've also binged […]
Show full quote

Thanks so much to everyone who replied! So I read through the posts and tried to understand as much as I could. I've also binged on PhilComputerLabs' videos and am thinking to choose either of these:

1. Asus P5KPL-AM SE with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-P43T-ES3G with PCI Radeon X800, SB Live! and either Core2Duo or Celeron 420.
2. Gigabyte GA-K8VM800M with AGP Radeon X800, SB Live! and AMD Sempron 3000+.

Please remind me - why are you going with a PCI-E setup for 98SE? Or at least your Intel options are...

I would probably pick the AMD out of those even though I've had huge troubles trying to build a 98SE machine out of a K8M800 (on a different board). That board appears to have official 98SE support... also, this is a socket 754, there should be some higher-performance single-core processors out there than a Sempron, no? Maybe not given the way the Athlon lineup migrated to 939 fairly quickly...

I forget if this came up earlier in the thread, but I'd be tempted to suggest an SB Audigy 2 ZS. The Audigy cards are just wonderful... although they might cost you more than your motherboard and CPU combo.

Thanks for the tip! So about PCI, it seems it's possible to have a nice build based on this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abYeIixYrbk (see the 4:30 mark) The PCI GFX benchmarks are at the 12:23 mark in the video. Plus on top of all that, the PCI motherboard is cheaper than AGP ones. That's why I included it as an option.

Regarding Sempron processor, I heard good review about it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAP6GcSiEvE. And as for Soundcard, then I'll definitely consider the audigy 2 ZS instead of SB Live

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-11-16, 00:28:

I concur with the x800 of you go PCIE. Much more stable in Windows 9x than GeForce PCIE cards due to drivers, in my opinion.

I suspect the Gigabyte P43 board will give you a smooth experience. I have a Gigabyte P45 board that works very well for me.

If I had more time tonight, I'd do a quick and dirty Win98 build using my Gigabyte board and your suggested components. Unfortunately, I have another commitment tonight.

Wow that would be immensely helpful! Please take your time and even if you don't find time for it, that's cool. I'll google more about the P43 board.

sk3886 wrote on 2023-11-16, 05:35:

Is there a way for me to find out whether this motherboard in particular (GA-K8VM800M) has the microcode bug you mentioned?

Not unless someone has already tested the motherboard for that bug. The most reliable way to do that is by dual booting WinXP and Win98 and then running the same benchmark on both operating systems. If GPU performance under Win98 is reduced by half compared to WinXP, then the bug is present.

If you want to read more about this issue, forum user @bloodem has researched it thoroughly. His findings are in this post.

Ok, so I did a quick Win98SE install on the following hardware:

- Gigabyte EP45-DS3L
- Core 2 Duo E8400
- 4GB DDR2
- Radeon x800 XL
- Sound Blaster Live! 5.1
- Realtek RTL8139
- 24GB Genetic SATA SSD
- IDE DVD-RW (using a SATA adapter)
- SATA DVD-RW

Observations:

I added "MaxPhysPage=30000" to SYSTEM. INI prior to the installer's first reboot to deal with the page fault issue. Rloew's mem patch worked when I installed it later (I still keep the argument in the SYSTEM. INI file, but I change the value to no greater than 70000 for compatibility).

My PS/2-to-USB adapter stopped working halfway through the Windows install. I switched to using the motherboard's PS/2 ports to complete installation. The adapter worked when I plugged it back in after completing the install. NUSB activated the USB 2.0 features after I installed it.

The motherboard insists on assigning IRQs 5 and 7 to system devices. This caused the Live! 's SB Emulation to crash Windows. I had to disable it in Device Manager. The Live! seemed functional otherwise.

Setting the SATA ports to IDE mode with Native SATA on ports 0-3 DISABLED in the BIOS worked perfectly. Windows' IDE controller drivers detected the SSD and optical drives properly with good performance. Rloew's AHCI driver, on the other hand, hung the computer at boot after switching to ports to AHCI mode in the BIOS. I switched the ports back to IDE mode.

I didn't do much performance testing, but I got a 3DMark01 score of 27,355 in the only test I ran tonight.

fosterwj03 wrote on 2023-11-17, 03:04:

Ok, so I did a quick Win98SE install on the following hardware: […]
Show full quote

Ok, so I did a quick Win98SE install on the following hardware:

- Gigabyte EP45-DS3L
- Core 2 Duo E8400
- 4GB DDR2
- Radeon x800 XL
- Sound Blaster Live! 5.1
- Realtek RTL8139
- 24GB Genetic SATA SSD
- IDE DVD-RW (using a SATA adapter)
- SATA DVD-RW

Observations:

I added "MaxPhysPage=30000" to SYSTEM. INI prior to the installer's first reboot to deal with the page fault issue. Rloew's mem patch worked when I installed it later (I still keep the argument in the SYSTEM. INI file, but I change the value to no greater than 70000 for compatibility).

My PS/2-to-USB adapter stopped working halfway through the Windows install. I switched to using the motherboard's PS/2 ports to complete installation. The adapter worked when I plugged it back in after completing the install. NUSB activated the USB 2.0 features after I installed it.

The motherboard insists on assigning IRQs 5 and 7 to system devices. This caused the Live! 's SB Emulation to crash Windows. I had to disable it in Device Manager. The Live! seemed functional otherwise.

Setting the SATA ports to IDE mode with Native SATA on ports 0-3 DISABLED in the BIOS worked perfectly. Windows' IDE controller drivers detected the SSD and optical drives properly with good performance. Rloew's AHCI driver, on the other hand, hung the computer at boot after switching to ports to AHCI mode in the BIOS. I switched the ports back to IDE mode.

I didn't do much performance testing, but I got a 3DMark01 score of 27,355 in the only test I ran tonight.

Wow that is immensely helpful! Thank you so much.

Another quick question if that's okay - is the Radeon X700 very much inferior to X800, or is it comparable?

I've never owned an x700, but it's in a completely different performance class as I understand it.

If you're concerned about power consumption and heat, you can try an x800 XL like I have. It was manufactured on a newer/smaller node than the initial x800-series chips.