VOGONS


First post, by red_avatar

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Someone local sells a complete system which contains the IBM 5x86C 100Mhz CPU. I have zero experience with this CPU but know it's made by Cyrix and I found quite a few topics about overclocking on Vogons but the question really is: should I buy this?

So far he's asking €300 including the original IBM monitor, keyboard & mouse. It seems a decent price but because I have no idea how compatible this CPU is and what its issues are (I only found quite technical stuff about how Windows 98 might be unstable?) I thought I'd ask here.

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Reply 1 of 19, by dionb

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The CPU was designed by Cyrix but not made by them. They were a fabless developer, with most CPUs in this era being manufactured by SGS-Thomsob or indeed IBM. The deal included rights for the fab owners to sell CPUs under their own brand, so that IBM 5x86 is definitely made by IBM.

Apart from that it's a gen 4.5 CPU, basically a 486 with some Pentium instructions and techniques shoehorned in. Expect it to be fully 486-compatible but not 100% Pentium. Not that the latter is too relevant, it's too slow for most Pentium -only code. Expect comparable performance with an Am5x86-133 or P75, depending on exact benchmark.

Reply 2 of 19, by rasz_pl

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Quake is a cut off point for such CPU, everything before runs fine, Quake and after is a struggle. Non gaming tasks run great, IBM wouldnt be shipping something incompatible.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 3 of 19, by debs3759

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dionb wrote on 2023-12-18, 08:36:

Apart from that it's a gen 4.5 CPU, basically a 486 with some Pentium instructions and techniques shoehorned in.

I didn't know it included new instructions. Do you know which ones? Would it be instructions like RDMSR / WRMSR / RDTSC etc?

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Reply 4 of 19, by Disruptor

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debs3759 wrote on 2023-12-18, 09:56:
dionb wrote on 2023-12-18, 08:36:

Apart from that it's a gen 4.5 CPU, basically a 486 with some Pentium instructions and techniques shoehorned in.

I didn't know it included new instructions. Do you know which ones? Would it be instructions like RDMSR / WRMSR / RDTSC etc?

CPUID

Some things you won't expect on a 486 like branch prediction.

I remember my mate mkarcher got a Compaq ProSignia EISA server.
It was put on the market with a 486 DX 33. The options were 486 DX2 66 and Pentium Overdrive.
It refuses to work with any 486 CPU that supports CPUID.

Reply 5 of 19, by keropi

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I have an Aptiva with 5x86/100mhz that uses such a horrible motherboard that having L2 cache installed or not it makes no difference in performance - and I suspect this is why the system was shipped without cache installed.
The model is 2144-120 -> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/8f0a.htm

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Reply 6 of 19, by rmay635703

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keropi wrote on 2023-12-18, 12:36:

I have an Aptiva with 5x86/100mhz that uses such a horrible motherboard that having L2 cache installed or not it makes no difference in performance - and I suspect this is why the system was shipped without cache installed.
The model is 2144-120 -> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/8f0a.htm

A very peculiar machine for a 1996 launch date

Reply 7 of 19, by Jasin Natael

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Very interesting CPU.
I gave $20 for mine, It was in a baby AT case with a faulty PSU/motherboard.
It is a Cyrix branded 100GP.
I regard it is a very fast 486, mine is currently clocked at 120mhz (40x3)
There are quite a few disabled features that can usually be re-activated to result in a significant increase in performance.

There have been many threads and interesting YouTube videos on this chip.
Some that worth to watch are CPU Galaxy, vswitchzero and the Nostalgia Nerd.
I'm sure there are others as well.

https://youtu.be/ysMmAVNKrFY?si=v4RGh2hX6bUuIPMq
https://youtu.be/Gp2Nzw0dH0U?si=oYkPqA0yscnORYtu
https://youtu.be/dQOmSKERPd0?si=P1OSA5kTMlsIYib_
https://youtu.be/iWGAdoMz1c0?si=EEMklqxyTS_8NB1q

Reply 8 of 19, by waterbeesje

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Honestly: the CPU is about the coolest 486 you can buy (next to the amd 5x86adz). But if it's worth the 300 you'll have to figure out yourself. IBM is cool if you like IBM bit definitely not the top performer you'd expect for it's price.

I like IBM because of ibm, have several ps/2 computers but they are slow compared to others in their class.
I also have a 5x85 system (Aquarius motherboard) and it's my second fastest 486 (the am5x86 at 50x3 is marginally faster).

On the other hand: if the 5x86 would be too slow, I'd get a P3 or K6+ system off the shelf 😀 so today is not all about performance to me

Stuck at 10MHz...

Reply 9 of 19, by Disruptor

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waterbeesje wrote on 2023-12-18, 19:43:

On the other hand: if the 5x86 would be too slow, I'd get a P3 or K6+ system off the shelf 😀 so today is not all about performance to me

That's why I don't have a Pentium (Socket 4, 5, 7) system.
Just 486, P3 and SS7

Reply 10 of 19, by mkarcher

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The Cyrix 5x86 is interesting for technology nerds (like me), because it has some pentium technology built into the core. For a user, it's a good processor for late 486 boards. If you enable the branch target buffer, it will get significantly more performance than an AMD 5x86, which is basically just a 486DX4 with a higher multiplier. On the other hand, I have yet to see an AMD 5x86-133 that doesn't overclock without any issues to 160MHz, but many Cyrix 5x86-100 already struggle at 120MHz, especially if you enable branch brediction. They say IBM branded Cyrix 5x86 processors overclock slightly better than Cyrix branded ones, so getting that system working at 120MHz is not unlikely (but not guaranteed).

If your primary goal is just playing retro games on period correct hardware, I wouldn't recommend a Cyrix 5x86 system over an AMD 5x86 system. On the other hand, AMD 5x86 systems are boring and everyone and their dog already have one, so if you want to have "something special" or your goal is to tinker with special setups (like running at FSB60), you might want that system to get the parts. The Cyrix 5x86 is interesting for FSB60, because the 100MHz version supports a *2 multiplier, allowing 2*60 = 120MHz, which works on many 5x86-100. On the other hand, the AMD 5x86 only supports *3 and *4, so the lowest core clock at FSB60 is 180MHz, which only works on selected processors. On the other hand, when trying to run at FSB60, you will quickly find out that most 486 boards are not designed to operate at that speed, and you likely need to add that many wait states that the higher FSB clock doesn't help at all. Finally, if you want FSB60, you could also look into getting an AMD DX4-120, which is fully in specification at 120MHz and supports a *2 multiplier. (EDIT: Just to be clear: I didn't intend to claim that 2*60 is "fully in spec". The FSB clock of the DX4-120 is specified up to 40MHz, or perhaps 50MHz at 2*50 = 100MHz, but is is definitely out of spec at 60MHz.) This processor is less finicky at 120MHz, but provides less performance. My coarse experience with some benches from Phils DOSBENCH suite is that a Cx5x86 with branch prediction enabled is approximately 33% faster than an AMD 5x86 at the same clock.

Reply 11 of 19, by amadeus777999

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A cool chip for sure but not really practical - 2 x 60 or 2 x 66 will never work with best cache timings due to 486 chipsets and low quality srams.
On the other hand 3 x 50, as can be pulled off with the Am5x86, can work on some boards with good static ram ICs and is very fast on late era UM888x & SiS49x chipsets.

Last edited by amadeus777999 on 2023-12-20, 10:17. Edited 2 times in total.

Reply 12 of 19, by mkarcher

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amadeus777999 wrote on 2023-12-20, 06:38:

A cool chip for sure but not really practical - 2 x 60 or 2 x 66 will never work with best cache timings due to 486 chipsets and low quality srams.
On the other hand 3 x 50, as can be pulled of with the Am5x86, can work on some boards with good static ram ICs and is very fast on late era UM888x & SiS97x chipsets.

Agreed. A Cyrix 5x86 at 2*50 is slower than an AMD 5x86 at 3*50, so for FSB50, the Cyrix processor is clearly not the best choice. Regarding chipsets: You mean SiS496/SiS497, not SiS97x.

Reply 13 of 19, by amadeus777999

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mkarcher wrote on 2023-12-20, 07:11:
amadeus777999 wrote on 2023-12-20, 06:38:

A cool chip for sure but not really practical - 2 x 60 or 2 x 66 will never work with best cache timings due to 486 chipsets and low quality srams.
On the other hand 3 x 50, as can be pulled of with the Am5x86, can work on some boards with good static ram ICs and is very fast on late era UM888x & SiS97x chipsets.

Agreed. A Cyrix 5x86 at 2*50 is slower than an AMD 5x86 at 3*50, so for FSB50, the Cyrix processor is clearly not the best choice. Regarding chipsets: You mean SiS496/SiS497, not SiS97x.

Yes - corrected.

Reply 14 of 19, by red_avatar

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keropi wrote on 2023-12-18, 12:36:

I have an Aptiva with 5x86/100mhz that uses such a horrible motherboard that having L2 cache installed or not it makes no difference in performance - and I suspect this is why the system was shipped without cache installed.
The model is 2144-120 -> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/8f0a.htm

That's the one he sells ...

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 15 of 19, by red_avatar

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waterbeesje wrote on 2023-12-18, 19:43:
Honestly: the CPU is about the coolest 486 you can buy (next to the amd 5x86adz). But if it's worth the 300 you'll have to figur […]
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Honestly: the CPU is about the coolest 486 you can buy (next to the amd 5x86adz). But if it's worth the 300 you'll have to figure out yourself. IBM is cool if you like IBM bit definitely not the top performer you'd expect for it's price.

I like IBM because of ibm, have several ps/2 computers but they are slow compared to others in their class.
I also have a 5x85 system (Aquarius motherboard) and it's my second fastest 486 (the am5x86 at 50x3 is marginally faster).

On the other hand: if the 5x86 would be too slow, I'd get a P3 or K6+ system off the shelf 😀 so today is not all about performance to me

I don't care about speed but I do care about compatibility. If I'm going to be running into weird issues I'd rather not get it. IBM PCs were generally pretty compatible for obvious reasons but their BIOS was limited and you didn't have a lot of expansion opportunities in their desktop PCs but I still love them since they're built like tanks.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 16 of 19, by keropi

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red_avatar wrote on 2023-12-21, 10:15:
keropi wrote on 2023-12-18, 12:36:

That's the one he sells ...

well the looks of the system are very nice BUT the motherboard is very subpar... almost looking like it was made from whatever it was available and it might be true at that point in time with the Aptiva brand...

🎵 🎧 PCMIDI MPU , OrpheusII , Action Rewind , Megacard and 🎶GoldLib soundcard website

Reply 17 of 19, by rasz_pl

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red_avatar wrote on 2023-12-21, 10:15:
keropi wrote on 2023-12-18, 12:36:

That's the one he sells ...

You didnt mention it was an Aptiva, an absolute low end. IBM was even sued for crap they were shoveling in those computers (Mwave modem/sound card combo) and settled in 2000.

on the other hand you already have one
>IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
so you already know whats up 😀

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 18 of 19, by red_avatar

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rasz_pl wrote on 2023-12-21, 12:33:
You didnt mention it was an Aptiva, an absolute low end. IBM was even sued for crap they were shoveling in those computers (Mwav […]
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red_avatar wrote on 2023-12-21, 10:15:
keropi wrote on 2023-12-18, 12:36:

That's the one he sells ...

You didnt mention it was an Aptiva, an absolute low end. IBM was even sued for crap they were shoveling in those computers (Mwave modem/sound card combo) and settled in 2000.

on the other hand you already have one
>IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
so you already know whats up 😀

The earlier Aptivas were actually pretty darn good value - came with a Sound Blaster 16 and a good graphics chip. I've just renovated one of these "newer" Aptivas (Pentium 120) that came with one of the Mwave cards but replaced it with a Sound Blaster 32.

Retro game fanatic.
IBM PS1 386SX25 - 4MB
IBM Aptiva 486SX33 - 8MB - 2GB CF - SB16
IBM PC350 P233MMX - 64MB - 32GB SSD - AWE64 - Voodoo2
PIII600 - 320MB - 480GB SSD - SB Live! - GF4 Ti 4200
i5-2500k - 3GB - SB Audigy 2 - HD 4870

Reply 19 of 19, by Anonymous Coward

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There's a reason why they're known as "Craptivas".

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V'Ger XT|Upgraded AT|Ultimate 386|Super VL/EISA 486|SMP VL/EISA Pentium