VOGONS


First post, by George Razvan

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Hi all,

A few years ago I finally built the PC that I never had back in the day, which was the Pentium 75. From a 486DX-2 I made the jump to a cyrix MII, but I always wanted a Pentium 75. I think most of the P75 were put in low-end systems, with 8MB RAM, 500-800 MB HDD, entry level boards, so, yeah, it was slow. I have tried to make my P75 differrent, with an Intel Advanced/ML board, which may deserve a better CPU, 64MB RAM, a Matrox Millennium II, and an 7200 RPM 160GB Hdd. The BIOS is limited to 8GB,but I never felt the need for more space anyway. Using a DDO would prevent me to sleep at night. It's guite snappy in Windows 95,where I can't really notice a difference between this machine and a P200,but the P200 does have a perriod correct HDD. But my quest for the fastest p75 is not over. I'm thinking about installing a LSI Logic i4 511 in this,with one or two hdd. Even with one hdd, and disabling raid, I should have ATA 100 and no size limit. I'm not sure about Win95 support, but it can be welcome in one of my WinXP machines.

Any thoughts on this ? The goal is to maximise HDD transfers, and have some fun. I don't have other ideas.

Last edited by George Razvan on 2024-02-07, 20:02. Edited 1 time in total.

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM

Reply 1 of 12, by waterbeesje

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The controller wel definitely speed up transfers. I use ata133 controllers in two P3 systems and a k3+ and you really can notice. That is if the hard disk supports it and the drivers are available.

For win95 there's also the hard disk limit where it's reliable. I wouldn't use a partition over 30GB for win98se any ice heard win95 is even less tolerant.

Stuck at 10MHz...

Reply 2 of 12, by chinny22

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If you created a stripe array it would be even quicker then a single HDD, maybe not noticeable but may be worth it if your trying to squeeze as much as possible or simply playing around

Reply 3 of 12, by George Razvan

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Would a SSD with an IDE adapter be a better choice?

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM

Reply 4 of 12, by AlessandroB

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I have recently developed my "retro" machines but I chose SCSI controller and 15,000rpm SCSI hard disk. If you want to be more "retro" than using SSDs I think there is nothing that can come close to 15k scsi disks.

Reply 5 of 12, by George Razvan

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AlessandroB wrote on 2024-02-08, 07:31:

I have recently developed my "retro" machines but I chose SCSI controller and 15,000rpm SCSI hard disk. If you want to be more "retro" than using SSDs I think there is nothing that can come close to 15k scsi disks.

I was thinking about SCSI,and I use SCSI RAID in my dual P3, but SCSI parts are getting harder to get lately..

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM

Reply 6 of 12, by rasz_pl

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George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 07:03:

Would a SSD with an IDE adapter be a better choice?

Vastly! Raid will only bump up transfer. While 2001 40-80GB drives were hitting 20 to 40GB/s depending on position on platter, and latest Parallel ATA ones should 40-60GB/s, the problem with mechanical drives was always latency, and that cant be helped with RAID0. Even the slowest most Chinesium $15 128GB SSD* combined with $5 sata-pata converter will outperform that.

* not that I advise anyone buying those Chinese drives https://goughlui.com/2023/10/10/psa-ssds-with … heck-your-ssds/

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 7 of 12, by George Razvan

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-02-08, 08:46:
George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 07:03:

Would a SSD with an IDE adapter be a better choice?

Vastly! Raid will only bump up transfer. While 2001 40-80GB drives were hitting 20 to 40GB/s depending on position on platter, and latest Parallel ATA ones should 40-60GB/s, the problem with mechanical drives was always latency, and that cant be helped with RAID0. Even the slowest most Chinesium $15 128GB SSD* combined with $5 sata-pata converter will outperform that.

* not that I advise anyone buying those Chinese drives https://goughlui.com/2023/10/10/psa-ssds-with … heck-your-ssds/

What about TRIM command for ssd? What will be the speed of the SSD once it would be 100% written to? Woult the lifetime of the SSD be affected ?

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM

Reply 8 of 12, by dionb

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Be clear about which problem you want to address / which metric you want to improve.

Depending on the version you use, RAID can improve HDD throughput either in reads only (RAID 1) or in reads and writes (RAID 0, 5 etc). In case of a slow CPU it can also improve non-I/O performance by offloading. What it will not improve is latency/seek times, so how long it takes between asking for data and that data actually starting to transmit. When you say "snappy", this is the key metric. As a rule of thumb, with mechanical drives, this is determined mostly by rotation speed and platter size. The fastest seek times are seen with the fastest spinning drives, so a 15k rpm drive will - regardless of throughput once the data has been found - run rings around a 5400 or 7200rpm drive. Size also matters - and in this respect is exactly opposite of throughput: the larger your platter, the longer the path given a particular angular movement. So throughput increases but so do seek times. That's why Quantum Bigfoot drives feel so slow and why Velociraptor drives went from 3.5" to 2.5" form factor. Incidentally, this means that a lot of smaller (lower density) platters is better for low seek time whereas one or two huge (high-density) platters is better for linear throughput.

This also means there is no 'perfect' drive. For storage you want a drive with big platters and big linear read/write performance, whereas for OS / swap you want a drive with small, fast platters and generally don't care about linear performance. So your 2010-era dream machine had OS and swap on a tiny Velociraptor with a couple of huge slow-rotating drives in raid for bulk storage. Then came SSDs. They provided incremental increase on linear throughput, but utterly shattered seek times, as there's no physical drive to turn before you can read or write. At a price, a very, very high price at that point.

But you're not looking at a 2010-era dream machine but at a P75 you want to get more snappy. In terms of period-correct stuff, you'd do well to look for the fastest SCSI drive you could find with the highest platter count. It will wail like a banshee, it will get hot as hell but it will beat the pants off an IDE 7200rpm drive with a few big platters. However the noise might prove unbearable and price may be an issue too. You could go for newer SCSI drives, as due to SCSI backwards compatibility, you could stick Seagate Cheetah or Quantum Atlas 10k or 15k drives onto a P75. They are not only a lot faster, but they are acutally pretty quiet too. I have an Atlas IV 10k in my dual P3 box and it's quieter than a generic 7200rpm WD SATA drive. These would also be cheaper/easier to find than a 1995-era drive. Issue would be size: DOS and early WIn95 can't handle partitions over 2GB. Late WIn95 or WIn98 support FAT32 and could handle bigger partitions, but would increase CPU overhead, which would slow the system down in other ways. If you want to/are prepared to abandon period-correct rotational media though there are other options. For my late 486, early Pentium systems, I like to go for IDE (PATA ) Disk-On-Module (DOM) SSDs. You can get 1GB or 2GB modules fairly easily and cheaply. They are physically small, they are silent and they have SSD seek times. CF is also an option, but I find them less reliable over time. Instead I prefer to use CF for data transfer between systems.

One note on SSD, either DOM or CF or SATA with SATA-PATA adaptes: your motherboard has an i430HX chipset with PIIX3 southbridge. It doesn't support UDMA transfers. That will limit throughput a lot vs theoretical abilities of your drive. However it does not affect seek times/latency, so you probably won't notice it - and PCI IDE controllers that do support UDMA open a whole new kettle of fish regarding PCI compatibility and the like.

George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 09:26:

[...]

What about TRIM command for ssd? What will be the speed of the SSD once it would be 100% written to? Woult the lifetime of the SSD be affected ?

Don't fill up your SSDs to 100%. Always keep at least 25% free so the SSD controller can do its job leveling writes. That said, unless you want to use this old machine for work for 40 hours per week, lifetime considerations are completely irrelevant with a modern SSD. With older ones, aim for SLC rather than MLC. I particularly like the Intel X25E series, which are also more manageable in terms of size (32GB or 64GB) - they were exactly the unobtainium I lusted after in 2010.

Reply 9 of 12, by rasz_pl

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George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 09:26:

What about TRIM command for ssd? What will be the speed of the SSD once it would be 100% written to?

no worse than CF that never supported trim to being with

George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 09:26:

Woult the lifetime of the SSD be affected ?

Definitely, but there are some tricks you could employ like secure erase followed by creating partition covering only 50-80% of the size, this should let SSD firmware use never touched NAND as spare. There is also at least DOS FAT Trim tool. Plus at the end of the day its a $15 SSD, thats like a pizza nowadays.

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 10 of 12, by Riikcakirds

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George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 07:03:

Would a SSD with an IDE adapter be a better choice?

I did the same type of thing with a P75 last year.
Using a 430fx motherboard I attached a 120GB SSD to the motherboard onboard IDE using an ide>sata adapter.
The 430FX and 430HX both support maximum MWDMA-2 which is basically UDMA-16 - 16MB/S.
In Win98se (i only have 48MB ram on this board) it flies and is smooth and really responsive. Using Atto disk benchmark the results are like a ram disk locked at max 16MB/s.
Cpu usage in the benchmark varies from 1% to 5% max. Turning off DMA and the machine is slow, unresponsive, disk transfers cause 90-99% cpu usage. MWDMA-2 makes a huge difference with an SSD.
The only part i needed was to flash a MR-BIOS to support 128GB disks.
Look at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vtPso … #gid=1489729917

The above shows 4 bios files that support the Intel Advanced/ML - so pick the right one.

Using an SSD on the first Pentium 1 boards that support dma-busmaster ide (from 430fx and newer) gives a huge performance increase.
I didn't bother buying a PCI IDE controller after this.

Reply 11 of 12, by George Razvan

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Riikcakirds wrote on 2024-02-08, 17:11:
I did the same type of thing with a P75 last year. Using a 430fx motherboard I attached a 120GB SSD to the motherboard onboard […]
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George Razvan wrote on 2024-02-08, 07:03:

Would a SSD with an IDE adapter be a better choice?

I did the same type of thing with a P75 last year.
Using a 430fx motherboard I attached a 120GB SSD to the motherboard onboard IDE using an ide>sata adapter.
The 430FX and 430HX both support maximum MWDMA-2 which is basically UDMA-16 - 16MB/S.
In Win98se (i only have 48MB ram on this board) it flies and is smooth and really responsive. Using Atto disk benchmark the results are like a ram disk locked at max 16MB/s.
Cpu usage in the benchmark varies from 1% to 5% max. Turning off DMA and the machine is slow, unresponsive, disk transfers cause 90-99% cpu usage. MWDMA-2 makes a huge difference with an SSD.
The only part i needed was to flash a MR-BIOS to support 128GB disks.
Look at:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vtPso … #gid=1489729917

The above shows 4 bios files that support the Intel Advanced/ML - so pick the right one.

Using an SSD on the first Pentium 1 boards that support dma-busmaster ide (from 430fx and newer) gives a huge performance increase.
I didn't bother buying a PCI IDE controller after this.

Tks, will checkit. I already ordered the PCI controller,and will check it first with some mechanical drives, maybe even a RAID matrix.DMA makes a difference even with a classic drive, at least when it comes to CPU usage.

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM

Reply 12 of 12, by George Razvan

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SSD doesn`t sound right for me in a Pentium 75. I'll try the PCI controller,and one hard drive for now. I have no other reason besides that I can,or I hope I can. Does anyone has experience with LSI Logice Megaraid i4 ? There are DOS drivers,so I will get Windows Installed,but no Windows 95 Support. The back-up plan is to run DOS 6.22.

Pentium 75 MHz ,Intel Advanced /ML ,64 MB RAM ,Matrox Millennium II,160 GB 7200 RPM
Pentium Pro 200 MHz, Intel VS440FX,32 MB RAM, Elsa Gloria Synergy,40 GB 7200 RPM
Dual Pentium III 650 MHz,512 MB RAM,3 x 4.5 GB SCSI Quantum Viking II 7200 RPM