VOGONS


First post, by mita

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I am going to share my experiment building this project, see the following links. In short: how to use non 5V CPU like AMD 5x133 in a 486 5V ONLY MB.

https://github.com/scrapcomputing/486SocketBl … =readme-ov-file
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEpAoVE4KjU

I drew the following build consequences:

- You have to know the main fact: one error in the preparation or in the soldering could result a failure, you have to start again. Order more PCB, DC-DC converter and pins to be able to start over.
- You have to be very carefull handling all the pins: the processor's pins should be in-line in both direction. A minuscule bent pin will block the insertion of the processor to the new socket. Add a small dimensional error on the female pins and you will realize it is no way to socket the cpu into the new socket.

-When you soldered a new row of pins try the cpu to fit or try the adapter to fit into the MB. At the beginning it will be easy but adding more and more rows the insertion will became more and more difficult. The purpose of this "mating" is to form the male pins to the female pins. In this way you have to deal with one line of a "problem" only. If mating is easy than the soldered row of pin is perpendicular to the PCB and the ends of the row is grinded well. This grinding is very important: a "sticking out" end of row will push the next row which can not be perpendicular to the PCB. If not perpendicular the mating will not be possible.

- Check every steps. You can not make any mistakes. One mistake will render the build useless. Check every end of the rows, grind back the ends. Solder the two endpoints of a row and check the perpendicularity of the row. If it is ok than solder the other pins. Check every soldered pins under magnification. I found many times the pin absorbed the tin but the pad is not. The size of the pad is small and it is easy to left it without tin. 12x magnification is recommended. Resolder every pin which is suspectible.

- Handle the solder with attention. It is very easy to fill other pads unintentionally. It is not easy to remove the tin from these pads-holes

- Check the continuity of the newly soldered top-bottom pins and the surrounding pins for short. If you made a bad soldering than this is the time to be able to correct it. if you solder the next paralell row than you do not have a canche to correct it. It is a garbage. Start over.

- The sequence of the solderig of the rows are very important. See the github documentation and the video. The white circles on the board designates the first pin of a given row, helping the placement process. Do not forget to altering the sides and solder the male - female rows alternate. This is the only way to solder every pin. Miss one alteration and it is done. Start over.

- Use a soldering tip suitable to this job. Too small will not be able to transfer the heat, too big will mess with the adjacent pins and pads. Use right temperature: do not melt the plastic but be able to quickly do the soldering. Clean the board before the soldering with IPA. Use flux if there is a difficulty to tint the pads around the pins. Clean the flux after the soldering with IPA (bath).

- Check the DC-DC converter before soldering in to the socket. Use an 2 ohm/10W resistor to simulate the load and measure the ripple with the scope. Check the thermal condition of the converter. Please note the converter will be in a much hotter place next to the bottom of the CPU. Use high efficiency converter (90% or more in case of 5V in, 3.5V out, 2A load). Trace down the converter IC and check the datasheet, do not accept blindly the seller's data. Use at least 0.8mm wires to solder the converter into its place. The thicker the better. If the MB suddenly stops working in the middle of a stressfull session than probably the thermal shutdown of the converter IC initiated. All your current work - progress will be lost. This is one reason why the cooling of the CPU is so much important. I think this is one of the weakest spot of this design but that is it.

-Check the ripple and the voltage when the system is under stress. The voltage range should be within 5%. The ripple should be less than 20mV.

- Count on problems: sart with MB settings first with the jumpers to check the MB operation. If it is ok than use the multiplication jumper to go higher internal clock. The result can vary MB to MB. In case of a Hypo MB the 133MHz internal clock was too high to boot from IDE, the system hanged. In case of 100MHz it was ok. On Acer A1 board 133MHz clock was ok. Switching off the Acer A1 - but keep the STBYON - and switching on again resulted a stuck boot process. Reset cured it 98% of times. But if you switched off and removed the power cord it starts without any problem. Strange.

- I found this job a difficult one. It takes a lot of time and effort to work with full attention. A lot of possibility of errors. And of course a merit at the end. The system is definitely more speedy with an amd 5x133 comparing to the 486DX33. Does it worth it? The material cost is much higher than the price of the 5x133 not counting the assembly time. Mixed feeling. But hey. More ridicioulos upgrades are in the horizont regarding the Acer A1 MB. Good luck!

Reply 1 of 17, by TheMobRules

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mita wrote on 2024-03-18, 19:19:

- Check the DC-DC converter before soldering in to the socket. Use an 2 ohm/10W resistor to simulate the load and measure the ripple with the scope. Check the thermal condition of the converter. Please note the converter will be in a much hotter place next to the bottom of the CPU. Use high efficiency converter (90% or more in case of 5V in, 3.5V out, 2A load). Trace down the converter IC and check the datasheet, do not accept blindly the seller's data. Use at least 0.8mm wires to solder the converter into its place. The thicker the better. If the MB suddenly stops working in the middle of a stressfull session than probably the thermal shutdown of the converter IC initiated. All your current work - progress will be lost. This is one reason why the cooling of the CPU is so much important. I think this is one of the weakest spot of this design but that is it.

-Check the ripple and the voltage when the system is under stress. The voltage range should be within 5%. The ripple should be less than 20mV.

Have you done ripple checks under stress? I wanted to build one of these, but I saw the videos of the author and the way he selected the capacitors wasn't very convincing, it seemed quite random. Also at one point he measured like 100mV of ripple and was like "that's OK". I noticed Epictronics also experienced stability issues in some cases, so I'm not really sold on this project yet... maybe an old style solution like those legacy interposers with an LDO would be simpler.

Reply 2 of 17, by kingcake

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TheMobRules wrote on 2024-03-19, 01:31:
mita wrote on 2024-03-18, 19:19:

- Check the DC-DC converter before soldering in to the socket. Use an 2 ohm/10W resistor to simulate the load and measure the ripple with the scope. Check the thermal condition of the converter. Please note the converter will be in a much hotter place next to the bottom of the CPU. Use high efficiency converter (90% or more in case of 5V in, 3.5V out, 2A load). Trace down the converter IC and check the datasheet, do not accept blindly the seller's data. Use at least 0.8mm wires to solder the converter into its place. The thicker the better. If the MB suddenly stops working in the middle of a stressfull session than probably the thermal shutdown of the converter IC initiated. All your current work - progress will be lost. This is one reason why the cooling of the CPU is so much important. I think this is one of the weakest spot of this design but that is it.

-Check the ripple and the voltage when the system is under stress. The voltage range should be within 5%. The ripple should be less than 20mV.

Have you done ripple checks under stress? I wanted to build one of these, but I saw the videos of the author and the way he selected the capacitors wasn't very convincing, it seemed quite random. Also at one point he measured like 100mV of ripple and was like "that's OK". I noticed Epictronics also experienced stability issues in some cases, so I'm not really sold on this project yet... maybe an old style solution like those legacy interposers with an LDO would be simpler.

The buck modules the creator chose are hot garbage. I've talked to epictronics about this in his comments. I'm designing a module for the socket blaster based around an old Analog Devices LDO design that was specifically meant for microprocessors.

Reply 4 of 17, by megatog615

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-19, 16:54:

feipoa went over picking best LDO for 486 Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

I would very much like to build a version with the sockets next to each other as opposed to on top of each other, like in this one you linked. It would make the whole process much easier in cases where you have plenty of room on the motherboard, and you could even use existing 168/169-pin sockets available online to build them with. It seems like this might be pretty simple to create with circuit board software(dragging the top or bottom components to one side, making it twice as long) but I have no experience with that. It would also allow you to have the buck converter exposed so you can make changes without removing the CPU.

Reply 5 of 17, by rasz_pl

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megatog615 wrote on 2024-03-19, 21:50:

It would also allow you to have the buck converter exposed so you can make changes without removing the CPU.

thats how Sphere478 designed it Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 6 of 17, by MikeSG

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The ripple voltage can be a lot higher than you think.

This is the highest Output LOW voltages acceptable for a DX4-100 3.3V CPU:
IOL = 4.0 mA (Address, Data, BEn) ... 0.45V
IOL = 5.0 mA (Definition, Control) ... 0.45V
IOL = 2.0 mA ... 0.40V
IOL = 100 µA ... 0.20V

Lowest Output HIGH voltage:
IOH = 2.0mA ... 2.4V

At worse case scenario, ground ripple can be up to 200mV without triggering malfunctions, and VCC ripple can be at least the same... Not saying that's good design to walk away at 200mV fluctuation but you could say 50-100mV would be safe.

Reply 7 of 17, by megatog615

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-20, 00:40:
megatog615 wrote on 2024-03-19, 21:50:

It would also allow you to have the buck converter exposed so you can make changes without removing the CPU.

thats how Sphere478 designed it Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

Oh, yeah I saw that. I mean to have the specific functionality of the socket blaster, 168 to 168.

Reply 8 of 17, by mita

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kingcake wrote on 2024-03-19, 02:04:
TheMobRules wrote on 2024-03-19, 01:31:
mita wrote on 2024-03-18, 19:19:

- Check the DC-DC converter before soldering in to the socket. Use an 2 ohm/10W resistor to simulate the load and measure the ripple with the scope. Check the thermal condition of the converter. Please note the converter will be in a much hotter place next to the bottom of the CPU. Use high efficiency converter (90% or more in case of 5V in, 3.5V out, 2A load). Trace down the converter IC and check the datasheet, do not accept blindly the seller's data. Use at least 0.8mm wires to solder the converter into its place. The thicker the better. If the MB suddenly stops working in the middle of a stressfull session than probably the thermal shutdown of the converter IC initiated. All your current work - progress will be lost. This is one reason why the cooling of the CPU is so much important. I think this is one of the weakest spot of this design but that is it.

-Check the ripple and the voltage when the system is under stress. The voltage range should be within 5%. The ripple should be less than 20mV.

Have you done ripple checks under stress? I wanted to build one of these, but I saw the videos of the author and the way he selected the capacitors wasn't very convincing, it seemed quite random. Also at one point he measured like 100mV of ripple and was like "that's OK". I noticed Epictronics also experienced stability issues in some cases, so I'm not really sold on this project yet... maybe an old style solution like those legacy interposers with an LDO would be simpler.

The buck modules the creator chose are hot garbage. I've talked to epictronics about this in his comments. I'm designing a module for the socket blaster based around an old Analog Devices LDO design that was specifically meant for microprocessors.

That is great news! Please share your experience when you have results.

Reply 9 of 17, by mita

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megatog615 wrote on 2024-03-19, 21:50:
rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-19, 16:54:

feipoa went over picking best LDO for 486 Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

I would very much like to build a version with the sockets next to each other as opposed to on top of each other, like in this one you linked. It would make the whole process much easier in cases where you have plenty of room on the motherboard, and you could even use existing 168/169-pin sockets available online to build them with. It seems like this might be pretty simple to create with circuit board software(dragging the top or bottom components to one side, making it twice as long) but I have no experience with that. It would also allow you to have the buck converter exposed so you can make changes without removing the CPU.

Well, if the sandwich VR setup will fail than there is a backup opportunity for the external VR. Just remove the VR from the circuit board and use an external one connecting the 3pin 5V-GND-Vout pins from the edge of the circuit board.

Reply 10 of 17, by mita

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TheMobRules wrote on 2024-03-19, 01:31:
mita wrote on 2024-03-18, 19:19:

- Check the DC-DC converter before soldering in to the socket. Use an 2 ohm/10W resistor to simulate the load and measure the ripple with the scope. Check the thermal condition of the converter. Please note the converter will be in a much hotter place next to the bottom of the CPU. Use high efficiency converter (90% or more in case of 5V in, 3.5V out, 2A load). Trace down the converter IC and check the datasheet, do not accept blindly the seller's data. Use at least 0.8mm wires to solder the converter into its place. The thicker the better. If the MB suddenly stops working in the middle of a stressfull session than probably the thermal shutdown of the converter IC initiated. All your current work - progress will be lost. This is one reason why the cooling of the CPU is so much important. I think this is one of the weakest spot of this design but that is it.

-Check the ripple and the voltage when the system is under stress. The voltage range should be within 5%. The ripple should be less than 20mV.

Have you done ripple checks under stress? I wanted to build one of these, but I saw the videos of the author and the way he selected the capacitors wasn't very convincing, it seemed quite random. Also at one point he measured like 100mV of ripple and was like "that's OK". I noticed Epictronics also experienced stability issues in some cases, so I'm not really sold on this project yet... maybe an old style solution like those legacy interposers with an LDO would be simpler.

Yes I have checked the ripple in my system. I measured at max 75mv of ripple. I had no stability problem during the doom test. The output of the VR is not dropped. I wrote 20mv of ripple acceptable but It is a typo. I think if you under 100mv in case of load than it should be fine.

Reply 11 of 17, by mita

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rasz_pl wrote on 2024-03-20, 00:40:
megatog615 wrote on 2024-03-19, 21:50:

It would also allow you to have the buck converter exposed so you can make changes without removing the CPU.

thats how Sphere478 designed it Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

Well if somebody thinks he has a complicated project than it is worth to check Sphere478's project just to get back to ground. 57 pages right now!

Reply 12 of 17, by mita

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MikeSG wrote on 2024-03-20, 10:27:
The ripple voltage can be a lot higher than you think. […]
Show full quote

The ripple voltage can be a lot higher than you think.

This is the highest Output LOW voltages acceptable for a DX4-100 3.3V CPU:
IOL = 4.0 mA (Address, Data, BEn) ... 0.45V
IOL = 5.0 mA (Definition, Control) ... 0.45V
IOL = 2.0 mA ... 0.40V
IOL = 100 µA ... 0.20V

Lowest Output HIGH voltage:
IOH = 2.0mA ... 2.4V

At worse case scenario, ground ripple can be up to 200mV without triggering malfunctions, and VCC ripple can be at least the same... Not saying that's good design to walk away at 200mV fluctuation but you could say 50-100mV would be safe.

Agree, as I wrote previously below 100mV should be ok.

Reply 13 of 17, by mita

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I am going to build one more socketblaster using the remaining pins and boards. I will try a different aproach for pin alignment this time. Try to use existing free prin headers to stabilize and keep perpendicular position of the soldareable pin headers. The first inner rows of the male headers are the most important ones from precision point of view. Try to post pictures.

Reply 14 of 17, by kingcake

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MikeSG wrote on 2024-03-20, 10:27:
The ripple voltage can be a lot higher than you think. […]
Show full quote

The ripple voltage can be a lot higher than you think.

This is the highest Output LOW voltages acceptable for a DX4-100 3.3V CPU:
IOL = 4.0 mA (Address, Data, BEn) ... 0.45V
IOL = 5.0 mA (Definition, Control) ... 0.45V
IOL = 2.0 mA ... 0.40V
IOL = 100 µA ... 0.20V

Lowest Output HIGH voltage:
IOH = 2.0mA ... 2.4V

At worse case scenario, ground ripple can be up to 200mV without triggering malfunctions, and VCC ripple can be at least the same... Not saying that's good design to walk away at 200mV fluctuation but you could say 50-100mV would be safe.

How are you measuring ripple though? If it's averaged, or RMS, then the actual max absolute ripple is much higher than you think.

Reply 16 of 17, by rasz_pl

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mita wrote on 2024-03-25, 21:35:

I have just read Vpp (peak to peak I assume) on the scope. It was changing periodically but the max was about 70mV.

By any chance with normal scope leads, one stuck into random ground point, maybe even in x1 mode?

Few pages about scope measurement Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP! it goes on and on Re: Custom interposer module for TI486SXL2-66 PGA168 to PGA132 - HELP!

Open Source AT&T Globalyst/NCR/FIC 486-GAC-2 proprietary Cache Module reproduction

Reply 17 of 17, by rolierop

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Please, is there anyone who wants to sell me a ready built Socket Blaster???!!!

I have tried several times now, but I keep getting soldering bridges. As of this moment I am out of the needed parts (desoldering isn't working) and given up on the soldering task altogehter. I notice my hands are not steady enough to do the job correctly.
So, please, if anyone has one left for selling....... I really hope someone can help me out because I'm kinda desparate 🙁

Btw. I have 4 pcb's and 4 voltage regulators left.

26-4
I found someone on Amibay who is willing to make one from my leftover parts. Thanks!

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MSI P35 Platinum | Intel Core2Duo E8600 | Sound Blaster Audigy 2 Value