VOGONS


Reasons to hate modern games

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Reply 220 of 269, by zyzzle

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Shreddoc wrote on 2022-07-08, 00:01:

The digital commercial frontline of the world is a massive wave, pushing most people along with it. I've always been an odd-one-out in society, so the wave missed me. But it doesn't matter. I'm still here wasting my time rambling on about it. I've still got to go through life having it all around me, and interacting with people who DO willingly engage with it.

So - damned if you do, damned if you don't, I'm afraid.

So did I. I missed that massive tidal wave, intentionally, because I've stayed on high ground. I congratulate you for following suit. The obvious cashgrab of the social media ploy / vortex has been patently obvious to anyone who has a brain and might dare to think outside the box.

Reply 221 of 269, by schmatzler

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Shreddoc wrote on 2022-07-08, 00:01:

Mobile games?? Ha. Ha. Ha. Nope.

The mobile games market is a culmination of all horrible ideas and exploitative gameplay elements just to get money out of people.
It's sad that this is mostly unregulated, opening the Play Store feels like opening a gambling site.

But there are excellent mobile games that aren't exploiting their players. A list of them is provided here at "No Bullshit Games":
https://nobsgames.stavros.io/

My favorite mobile game is "Monument Valley" from ustwo games. It's a beautiful game with a heartwarming story and you need to think a little bit.
"Riptide GP: Renegade" is also excellent - it's a racing game on water and the water effects look gorgeous. No lootboxes, no DLC, just racing and fun. I bought a gamepad for my tablet just for this game.

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Reply 222 of 269, by Joakim

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I hate gaming without tactile buttons in action filled games and in games that are a good fit for it your fingers are always in the way on a small screen.

I loved the ps vita when it came out but in hindsight it never had a chance to compete with the fruit company that makes phones.

Reply 224 of 269, by gaffa2002

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realnc wrote on 2022-07-15, 12:38:

If by "devs" he meant the ones working for the game industry, then this guy is right, unfortunately...
Every industry follows the same rule... whatever is being produced by it is secondary. The focus will always be in making money, otherwise the company is swallowed by a bigger one overnight.
Its a no-win situation for everyone, devs (meaning the actual people in the project, not the company) and consumers.

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Reply 225 of 269, by TheMobRules

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Riccitiello and people of his ilk are reason enough to hate how most games are made these days. The fact that he speaks about "compulsion loop" in the interview is disgusting, he's pretty much describing games as gambling machines.

Unfortunately the success of video games attracted all sorts of wrong people, the same kind of "execs" that made the music and movie industries the hot garbage they currently are. Game development used to be about to finding a balance between making money by pleasing the customers and the artistic intentions of the developer. So even in extreme cases you would get either pure fan service or commercially unsuccessful "artsy" stuff. But now that has shifted to just pleasing the shareholders, who don't give a fuck whether the gamers like the product or the developer feels realized. Of course, this wouldn't be possible without the drones and whales that swallow every single microtransaction that gets thrown at them.

Reply 226 of 269, by Tetrium

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realnc wrote on 2022-07-15, 12:38:

There are some things to be said about that article though.
Since you already added the original link to the source, I'll add the article here in case it ever disappears sometime in the future since I'm about to dissect it a little:

Unity CEO John Riccitiello has said that if you’re not thinking about monetisation during your creative process, you’re a “fucking idiot.”

The comments came in an interview with our friends at pocketgamer.biz just after it was confirmed that Unity and IronSource are to merge.

So the first thing he does, is to state his hypothesis (which he delivers like it's a fact, but it's really his hypothesis as he's about to try to state his case next) that "if you’re not thinking about monetisation during your creative process, you’re a “fucking idiot.”".

When Riccitiello was asked about some of the heat Unity and IronSource has received around the idea of including monetisation earlier in the development process, Riccitiello responded:

“Ferrari and some of the other high-end car manufacturers still use clay and carving knives. It’s a very small portion of the gaming industry that works that way, and some of these people are my favourite people in the world to fight with – they’re the most beautiful and pure, brilliant people. They’re also some of the biggest fucking idiots.”

Here he tries to illustrate or cartonize or whatever one could call it, the people who don't work in this way or basically what he described as fucking idiots along with "clay and carving knives" with which he tries to imply that not working in his way is old-fashioned, dated and obsolete and that this is a mere small portion, all of this he implies they should move on, stop trying to fight commercial wars with clubs and start using nukes like normal people who are not fucking idiots do. He clearly is dismissive on people he perceives as pure and brilliant, as he tries to imply they should stop being fucking idiots and become more narcissistic or something.

Unity’s merger with IronSource was announced yesterday, and valued the latter company at $4.4bn.
“I’ve been in the gaming industry longer than most anybody – getting to the grey hair and all that,” he continued.

Next he makes a statement which doesn't only try to imply he is knowledgeable about thew gaming industry for a longer time than most others have, it is also a statement of entitlement for his own behalf. It's to add extra foundation for his next statement.

“It used to be the case that developers would throw their game over the wall to the publicist and sales force with literally no interaction beforehand. That model is baked into the philosophy of a lot of artforms and medium, and it’s one I am deeply respectful of; I know their dedication and care.”

philosophy, artforms, deeply respectful, dedication and care (but they are fucking idiots).

“But this industry divides people between those who still hold to that philosophy and those who massively embrace how to figure out what makes a successful product.

This doesn't really need a whole lot of explanation. He clearly divides/polarizes this previously mentioned group (the so called fucking idiots) and "those who massively embrace how to figure out what makes a successful product" with which he wants to basically create 2 groups, of which he tries to imply the group of fucking idiots are the outcasts, the old fashioned ones, the naive idiots with ideals basically. And on the other hand the normal people, the rest of the world who massively embrace (a word which usually has a positive connotation which he attempts to mix in with what essentially are 'game' or surprise mechanics, veeeery sneaky! Very clever) how to figure out (as in think/use a brain, another clever use of words with the purpose of trying to invoke an emotion from the reader) what makes a successful product.
Of course a successful product is one in which monetization should be blended into the creative phase (because that's what makes money, or so he implies).

And I don’t know a successful artist anywhere that doesn’t care about what their player thinks. This is where this cycle of feedback comes back, and they can choose to ignore it. But to choose to not know it at all is not a great call.”

Here he tries to add in yet another connotation to put even more emphasis on dividing up these 2 groups he is talking about. The same clever way of using certain words.
Some parts I don't fully understand, this bit: "this cycle of feedback comes back" not sure if he means that somehow the inclusion of monetization practices have a positive effect on the amount of feedback the game company receives, but this is either simply not the case. Because game companies that still make games more the old fashioned way actually do know how to use 2022 communication methods quite effectively, but are not really needed by companies that think about monetization as much because companies that try to make people as addicted as possible to their products, their 'games', create their software build around trying to get people as addicted as possible. This is implied by this next bit:

“I’ve seen great games fail because they tuned their compulsion loop to two minutes when it should have been an hour. Sometimes, you wouldn’t even notice the product difference between a massive success and tremendous fail, but for this tuning and what it does to the attrition rate. There isn’t a developer on the planet that wouldn’t want that knowledge.”

The compulsion loop is a term used in what I could describe as gaming psychology, which is part of a set of 'rules' now generally understood to help make games that people keep playing and also keep going back to. There's a whole lot of info to be found about this subject, so I won't search and link some of those here (because I literally have a train to catch in a bit and want to spend my remaining time preparing for that instaed of hunting links via google about tricks companies use to make you addicted to their games).

So this last bit is actually somewhat true. But he's again being deceitful as he is implying that these sciences, this knowledge about the more mathematical approaches of what make games more fun, are somehow connected to monetization, which thjey are not.

The difference here is that monetization of games is often by misuse or abuse of these sets of rules, they are definitely not the same. A game could perfectly well be made according to those rules but exclude monetization in not only the creative phase, but in the other phases as well and be sold the old fashioned way.

What is regarded as a successful product is also open to debate. I assume the writer of this article was implying that the amount of success of a game can only be measured in how much money it makes. This is a questionable statement as this depends on what your end goals are.

About the feedback he mentioned earlier. It wouldn't surprise me if part of this feedback was from datamining, invading people's privacies because if they let their guard down they will be the best datamineable set of people for which to tweak their psychological abuse of addictive mechanics they want to blend into their 'games'. it's like trying to add heroine to coffee and persuade people it's just greater coffee than the coffee the old-fashioned people still make.

So all in all, a rather deceitful bunch of statements mentioned in that article. It doesn't even actually contain a lot of actual information, it's mostly a collection of statements processed into a relatively short story/article which is build around trying to swing the reader's opinions about this subject in a (from my perspective) untruthful way.
It's deceptive and not true.

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Reply 227 of 269, by ratfink

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I just downloaded diablo immortal (the "dont you guys have phones" debacle was not an auspicious start of course but i wanted to have a look as it's apparently set between D2 which i loved and D3 which i didnt). ipad pro, fast machine, very capable. took forever downloading all the packs, including audio. no sound. tried all the fixes. game deleted. feedback left. is it so fucking hard to make something just work on a platform that should "just work". it's not like these guys are amateurs, they make shitpiles of money out of it etc etc etc.

Reply 228 of 269, by DosFreak

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Blizzard was dead to me when WC3 was released. I did play D3 to prove if my avoidance of online only games was me just being irrational or not, it was not and D3 was horrible. May Blizzard continue to fade into irrelevance but likely not since esports and mobile seems to eat their shit up likely due to the dearth of quality mobile games.

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Reply 229 of 269, by DosFreak

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https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-immortal/micr … ons-100-million

Diablo Immortal microtransactions have made over $100 million from player spending on mobile platforms alone, says a report from SensorTower on the RPG game

Boggles the mind doesn't it?

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Reply 230 of 269, by BitWrangler

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schmatzler wrote on 2022-07-15, 01:17:
The mobile games market is a culmination of all horrible ideas and exploitative gameplay elements just to get money out of peopl […]
Show full quote
Shreddoc wrote on 2022-07-08, 00:01:

Mobile games?? Ha. Ha. Ha. Nope.

The mobile games market is a culmination of all horrible ideas and exploitative gameplay elements just to get money out of people.
It's sad that this is mostly unregulated, opening the Play Store feels like opening a gambling site.

But there are excellent mobile games that aren't exploiting their players. A list of them is provided here at "No Bullshit Games":
https://nobsgames.stavros.io/

My favorite mobile game is "Monument Valley" from ustwo games. It's a beautiful game with a heartwarming story and you need to think a little bit.
"Riptide GP: Renegade" is also excellent - it's a racing game on water and the water effects look gorgeous. No lootboxes, no DLC, just racing and fun. I bought a gamepad for my tablet just for this game.

Thanks for that link.

I've been working away at one not on there, probably because it does bug you a bit, but so far, everything seems to be do-able eventually without spending actual cash, gotta watch some ads though. It's Dogbyte's "Off The Road" .. got all the lands and half the cars unlocked now. Controls are a bit of a PITA, but you can customise them to reduce the pain. Not for the easily tempted though, or you'll be real money buying all the pointless crap that you can eventually afford collecting in game currency.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 231 of 269, by Joakim

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DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-28, 23:46:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-immortal/micr … ons-100-million

Diablo Immortal microtransactions have made over $100 million from player spending on mobile platforms alone, says a report from SensorTower on the RPG game

Boggles the mind doesn't it?

That's it, I've lost faith in mankind. (Peoplekind for all you Canadians.)

I think I'm going to live with the dolphins now. I've read in a book they are smart. Mice might be smarter but the dolphins seem to have a better time.

Reply 232 of 269, by chrismeyer6

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Joakim wrote on 2022-07-29, 05:20:
DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-28, 23:46:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-immortal/micr … ons-100-million

Diablo Immortal microtransactions have made over $100 million from player spending on mobile platforms alone, says a report from SensorTower on the RPG game

Boggles the mind doesn't it?

That's it, I've lost faith in mankind. (Peoplekind for all you Canadians.)

I think I'm going to live with the dolphins now. I've read in a book they are smart. Mice might be smarter but the dolphins seem to have a better time.

It's one of the reasons me and my wife moved to a nice rural area less people and more nature. It's always pretty quiet here and at night you can see all the stars you want.

Reply 233 of 269, by darry

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Joakim wrote on 2022-07-29, 05:20:
DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-28, 23:46:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/diablo-immortal/micr … ons-100-million

Diablo Immortal microtransactions have made over $100 million from player spending on mobile platforms alone, says a report from SensorTower on the RPG game

Boggles the mind doesn't it?

That's it, I've lost faith in mankind. (Peoplekind for all you Canadians.)

I think I'm going to live with the dolphins now. I've read in a book they are smart. Mice might be smarter but the dolphins seem to have a better time.

Hope nobody builds that hyperspace bypass anytime soon...

Reply 234 of 269, by Shagittarius

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darry wrote on 2024-08-21, 06:37:
Joakim wrote on 2022-07-29, 05:20:
DosFreak wrote on 2022-07-28, 23:46:

That's it, I've lost faith in mankind. (Peoplekind for all you Canadians.)

I think I'm going to live with the dolphins now. I've read in a book they are smart. Mice might be smarter but the dolphins seem to have a better time.

Hope nobody builds that hyperspace bypass anytime soon...

Don't Panic.

Reply 235 of 269, by BitWrangler

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Panic immediately and get it over with 100 pseudocoin, panic throughout the course of the next 10 turns, 30 pseudocoin, suppress the feeling of panic badly and be uneasy all damn week = free.

Unicorn herding operations are proceeding, but all the totes of hens teeth and barrels of rocking horse poop give them plenty of hiding spots.

Reply 236 of 269, by MadMac_5

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As much as I hate the way that large-scale game production is a relentless corporate meat grinder these days, I can't argue with the fact that some of the greatest gaming experiences I've had over the past decade wouldn't have been possible without the massive resources that go into making a big live-service game. Destiny 2 in particular has had some sublimely wonderful story moments since 2020, and the excellent story finale in its most recent expansion wouldn't have been possible without the truly massive team of artists, engineers, designers, managers, and testers who made it all happen.

That being said, two games I've enjoyed the most in the past year have been from much smaller teams. Selaco is a brilliant FPS that somehow runs on a heavily modified version of gzdoom, while Robocop: Rogue City is the product of a scrappy Polish developer that just loves the crap out of 80s action movies like Terminator and Robocop and that love and reverence for the source material shines through in the final product. I also have to give credit to the team at EA Motive for Star Wars: Squadrons. Their goal was to make a Star Wars game with a robust single player campaign and a multiplayer mode that didn't have a season pass or microtransactions that would turn it into a perpetual money machine. They even released two additional flyable ships for free! As much as I had mixed feelings about the gameplay mechanics, I have to respect that the game was from a big publisher, had high production values in terms of graphics and sound, and had a scope similar to what we saw in the early 2000s.

Reply 237 of 269, by StriderTR

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I'm on the fence between classic and modern games. The classics and modern "retro" games do dominate a majority of my preferred games lists, but there are some modern games that I truly do enjoy. File sizes used to bug me, but the faster internet connections get, and the cheaper storage gets, that becomes less of a bother for me personally, as long as there's a good game with a lot of content behind all that data.

My biggest problem with many modern games is cooperate greed. I mean, games are a product like anything else, but I think many older games existed for more than just making money. It seemed like the developers actually enjoyed what they did and that came though in their games, they wanted it to be a hit just as much for personal reasons than making money, and those two went hand in hand. If it was a hit, it made a lot of money. Today, I think a lot of your big publishers and developers have it backwards, money trumps all. The quality of the games just seems lacking, often riddled with bugs and issues they have to patch out as they go along, if ever. So much of it just seems rushed to get sales and meet deadlines.

Still, there are franchises that I've been playing for a very long time that fall into that "greed" category. Fallout, Command & Conquer, Battlefield, etc. So, I guess in the end all that really matters is, do you enjoy playing the game? If at the end of the day the answer is yes, then I can forgive cooperate greed, if not, then I can whip out that greed card and complain about it. 😜

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Reply 238 of 269, by Joakim

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The original old guy yelling at clouds here. I have since repent. Recently upgraded my computer. Some newer games look cool. Gonna try the new star wars title and also that ape game, wukon? Got them for free with the GPU.

But alas a ray traced turd is still a turd. 😉

Reply 239 of 269, by StriderTR

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Joakim wrote on 2024-08-22, 15:26:

The original old guy yelling at clouds here. I have since repent. Recently upgraded my computer. Some newer games look cool. Gonna try the new star wars title and also that ape game, wukon? Got them for free with the GPU.

But alas a ray traced turd is still a turd. 😉

One thing I love is the fact that "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", and that holds true for video games as well.

I have very vague memories playing on my dad's Magnavox Odyssey from back in my early single digit years, but the Atari systems was where I got my start, followed by the TI-99/4A as my very first computer. I remember being amazed by the graphics and capabilities at the time of those machines. Growing up through those years and into the 8, 16, 32, 64-bit and beyond, watching it all advance, was amazing. I think having all of that firmly burned into my hippocampus has made me a very forgiving person when it comes to modern games and their graphics.

I often see people complain about graphics on a modern games, and I've even been guilty of it a few times, but then I end up thinking to myself "we've come a long way since the Atari days". So much so that I often look past how it looks on the screen IF there is good gameplay and/or a good story to the game. My brain often fills in what's missing on the screen, my imagination kicks in, and I assume that's becasue that's how kids of my generation played games.

That's all my long-winded way of saying, I agree. Amazing graphics, and especially ray tracing, can look absolutely mind blowing, but if it lacks the aforementioned gameplay or story to back it up, then it's just a pretty picture and not a game in my opinion.

Speaking of ray tracing, my RX6600 can do it at an "entry level", but it's still amazing to me! Honestly, the only modern game I play that uses the technology is Doom Eternal, and it's the perfect example of an game that has both looks and gameplay. However, what I am most amazed by are the source ports that have been made adding ray tracing to old games like the original Doom, Quake, and Half-Life. Seeing those old games that I love looking so amazing is a pure joy to behold. Modern source ports are cool to begin with, but being able to see them using such a new technology is just wicked!

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