I believe that according to eBay, items listed with the "used" condition flag are always returnable. However, many sellers mistakenly use that flag for "as-is" items, and as long as the description isn't deliberately deceptive then I don't try to abuse or take advantage of them on that technicality.
eBay's "as-is" flag says "As is for parts or not working" which can make items sound a lot worse than they really are, so it's not surprising sellers don't use it when they think the item is good.
eBay's attitude about what "used" means can get kind of tricky for more complex items IMO because if you look close enough at any "used" item, you can eventually find something about it that isn't perfect.

For example, last year I bought a "used" computer from a bulk liquidator. It was a multi-item listing with hundreds of machines available. The description indicated the machines were as-is and that there could be minor variations between units. It arrived as expected but proved to have a faulty hard drive. I was totally okay with that as I felt it was within the spirit of what the description had led any reasonable person to expect (regardless of the technicality of the "used" flag). Reading the reviews showed that there were a few people who raised hell about minor issues like that, but thankfully the majority were reasonable and so the seller had continued to find it worthwhile to sell those machines.

The listing you linked is for a very expensive item though, so if it had any serious defects it would be very sensible to expect to be able to return it. eBay would force them to take a return, but it appears the seller might not realize this and as a result it might be an unpleasant experience.
Speaking from a seller's point of view, selling an item like this would scare me because of the potential for return fraud. From an honest buyer's point of view, having recourse for a broken $450 item is totally sensible.

feipoa wrote:

I'm curious to know what people think about this. I've noticed on eBay, in particular, people use the "Used" condition category, which, by default is specified as "fully operational and functions as intended", yet in the description, the item is listed "as is". Here is one such example.

What does this really mean? If you buy it and it is DOA, can you return it? The two statements seem contradictory to me. In my mind, either the seller should use the "for parts, not working" category. However, I feel there should be a "used, as-is" category.

An understanding of what "fully operational, as-is" is important because it affects one's bid price. Obviously, you will bid a lot less for an item which is "as-is, no DOA warranty".

I think anyone who buys vintage stuff understands what this means, which is to say "it's working today, but it could stop working at any time!".

I brought up the ambiguity to the seller in a cordial manner, but received a less than thought-out response.

please reread the description. no where does it say "fully operational". I understand you're trying to be technical but go by the description. And please Do Not bid as I can only offer guarantees as to what the listing has stated.

I further clarified the ambiguity with a screenshot photo, and requested confirmation that there will be no DOA warranty. I pointed out that ambiguous ads skew buyer's max bid amounts. I also suggested he use the "for parts, not working" condition. Nearly 24-hours have passed now without response. I am under the impression that he prefers the "used" condition for increased bid amounts, however wants to hide under the guise of "as-is". Clearly, the bid amount for such a risk is too high for me.

I tried to find the item misrepresentation option for eBay's "report item" feature, but it seems they have removed it. All the categories that eBay's system forces you to use do not fit, and I could not find an "other" option which lets you type the issue manually.

"As is" is very much open to interpretation.

Its being sold as is, the question to ask is as is what? As is working, as is junk, as is unknown. People seem to use it thinking its a magical way of getting away with selling junk. Any reputable seller would not use shuch a statement.

I always list in the as-is/for parts and not working category, even if it is. There's two reasons.

First, I had a run of bad luck with people getting refunds through PayPal when it was in the used category. Though it's possible, I highly doubt so many things just happened to break or turn up not working after shipping especially considering the effort I go through to package things I sell. Incidents of this have gone down to exactly zero since I changed over. I always provided photos and occasionally videos of the item working in the listing.

Secondly, I stress that I've tested the item with my particular setup, and it works as intended with my particular setup. I don't guarantee it will work with your setup and hardware, and I don't offer any warranty on something that is 15, 20, 25 years old or more. Therefore, I'm selling it as-is as a collectors piece and if it works for you, you get the bonus of a working item. Never had an issue with it. Most people let me know it works great, some never respond, but never had any eBay complaints since.

I try to give as much information as I can in a listing, but as most people know there are both a lot of unscrupulous buyers and sellers out there. It's unfortunate that in a niche like this, people still want to rip off and steal from their fellow hobbyists. I do my due diligence and want to protect myself.

On top of that, there's just the people getting into the scene that made impulse or bad purchases presumably based on things they've heard or seen without understanding WHAT they are buying. "Why doesn't my Voodoo2 work?" as they don't have a 2D card. "Why doesn't this card fit in my computer" as they try install an ISA card in a computer without a slot. And yet they somehow want me to pay for return postage around the world for them.

As-is/For parts has removed all of that headache for me. No more unwarranted returns from uninformed buyers at my expense, no more scammers trying to get free hardware. If someone has genuine issues I'm more than happy to work with them on refunds. But it has just removed eBay's automatic rulings from the equation and that's great.

+1 to what x0zm said. Seeing as PayPal gives buyers 6 months to make a claim, listing as 'Used' is essentially warranting that the item will work that long. Between guaranteeing operational status, and the vagaries of the postal system, it's a risk selling even a few small things here and there as you can easily end up out of pocket.

The item condition status of "Used" and "For parts or not working" is obvious and clear for me. As x0zm_ and others have already explained that perfectly above.

However I'm wondering about any possible issues with items with not specified condition, where in the listing you can see that there is "Item condition: --", just 2 dashes. It means that when the listing has been initially started, the seller just didn't choose any condition from the predefined list. Here is one of the many examples:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/ISA-Dak-Industries-I … P4AAOSwygJXgWPY

Most of those listings are intentionally skipping the "item condition" field and just placing various phrases in the item description as "sold as is, cannot test it", or "appears to be working" or "it has been working 7 years ago when I pulled it from my computer that I don't have anymore" and various other like this.

Can someone with more experience tell me - if I win an item with "--" condition and then it is not working, can I open a SNAD case and return it to the seller? Do the money back guarantee works for "--" items?

I saw an IBM PC AT 5170 on eBay that was cleaned, replacement battery, and tested (still for sale), and the condition is amazing, plus, it has a VGA card (set to 80 Char. CGA for compatibility with software), the original HDD and has a 1.2MB FDD that the user cleaned and lubricated. Don't want to post the link on here, but here's the title: Tested Clean IBM AT 5170 Computer System

+2 to what x0zm said. I started a thread of frustrated ebay sales here.
As a buyer you can basically ignore "no return" or "as-is" in description and file a return request as long as the item is listed as "used" on ebay.

I also sell all my retro tech items on eBay with an "as is no returns" clause, as once they're gone from my hands I cannot guarantee its lifespan. Having said that, I spend considerable amount of time cleaning and checking my items, packing them well. I'm yet to receive purchased items in similar condition as to how I send out mine - it doesn't take long to do.

The other thing is some nerd collectors get all prickly about the condition of an item, and everyone that complains is apparently an expert in their field. Better off to list the faults, offer as is and be done with it, in my experience.

JB

Byrd wrote:

I also sell all my retro tech items on eBay with an "as is no returns" clause, as once they're gone from my hands I cannot guarantee its lifespan. Having said that, I spend considerable amount of time cleaning and checking my items, packing them well. I'm yet to receive purchased items in similar condition as to how I send out mine - it doesn't take long to do.

The other thing is some nerd collectors get all prickly about the condition of an item, and everyone that complains is apparently an expert in their field. Better off to list the faults, offer as is and be done with it, in my experience.

JB

Are you listing the item in the "used: fully operational" category, or the "for parts, or not working" category?

I don’t understand why people expect warranty on electronics of 10+ years old. If you buy such an item, then you should be reasonable about your expections, despite statements like ‘working’, ‘mint condition’ etc. The manufacturer has likely never designed the product to last 10+ years. If you’re lucky you get something that can last many more years. If you’re not so lucky, then you might have to invest some time and money for a repair. What’s wrong with that? It is part of the classic computer hobby. If you don’t like that, then buy a new pc..

SpectriaForce wrote:

you might have to invest some time and money for a repair. What’s wrong with that? It is part of the classic computer hobby.

Strongly agree. The stuff that's old enough for DIPs and through holes--collectors who also operate should have a solder station they know how to use. A group can agree to save the part and not melt it, but to be of use, it has to eventually go to someone who can solder.

Has anyone *ever* had or lost an ebay or paypal dispute over a "for parts or not working" sale? I'm curious. I completely stopped using eBay last year after being burned for almost $500 in two transactions, but my items were listed as used. I only use forums and mercari now, but the exposure is so much lower. It makes it harder to sell items that are valuable but not as commonly sought after, like motherboards and such.

I have considered going to eBay again if there was any way to get rid of the no-questions-asked 6 month warranty from Paypal. That's a complete joke.

I just won an eBay case against a seller that sold a laptop that was said to be fully working but was sold AS-IS in the for parts or broken listing category.

Reason is that it arrived severely damaged from insufficient packaging as well as pretty bad damage to the box it was shipped in and the seller's attitude was basically, screw you, you received the item and you have to put in the claim with the carrier or you can ship back to us at your expense, we will put in the claim, and if we get insurance reimbursement we will refund you.
And they were whining about how they were losing so much money on the sale in the first place even without refunding me.
They were also playing dumb.. or maybe they really were so dumb that they couldn't figure out/refused to put in a claim online and also pretty much ignored everything I was saying and just kept coming back with responses that pretty much flat out accused me of trying to scam them despite all the pictures I took and attached to the eBay case.. even ones that they specifically requested.

They did offer a partial refund in the $5 range.. idiots.

Those type of people should have their eBay accounts canceled for life.

I've received damaged and DOA things sold as used before and never had an issue with at least getting a partial refund that was acceptable to me.

I've even received a few damaged items that were not packaged properly, such as the industrial rack mount computer I purchased a while back.
I didn't even ask for anything back from that seller because I got a really, really good deal on it in the first place and the only thing that got messed up was the front panel on the case and the plastic button for the power switch. Took me about 15 minutes to straighten out the front panel and a few more to epoxy the power switch button.
I did contact the seller and let them know what happened so they could take measures to make sure their shipping department would package stuff better in the future.

From my experience, most sellers on eBay are pretty good, but there are some really, really bad ones as well.

And as a seller who packages stuff really well, I have not had any issues with buyers except one time where I ended up giving a partial refund to somebody who bought a camera lens and apparently didn't look at the pictures or read the description to find out that the 40+ year old lens was not in perfect shape. Wasn't worth my time to try and fight it and in the end be forced to give a full refund.

I've only listed a few things in the for parts or broken listing category, so I am not sure how it seems like some people have a lot of problems with the used category.

I do make sure to take really good pictures with a good DSLR and good glass, so that may be part of it.
I also put in really detailed information in my listings as well. I am sure that has something to do with it as well.