i have buy this! the sound is very clean and deep bass. the awe64 midi have amazing sound.

My Main PC is using Logitech Z5500

Retro PC's use Logitech Z2300

obobskivich wrote:

Never tried a "buffer" (most of them are SET followers from what I understand) - in theory they shouldn't do a whole lot, but potentially bring in more noise (especially if they create a ground loop with your components); but that's theory - practice can be a whole 'nother thing. If you go this route I'd be curious what you think of it.

Will tell you once I try it.

Though, I'd like to know others opinion first if they had tried it, especially for DOS games' FM music. 😉

obobskivich wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Haven't seen them on ebay, haven't seen them on hi-fi do either. It seems they're very rare.

My understanding is that within Japan they're less rare (I've heard they sometimes pop-up in local shops), but they tend not to go that far outside of Japan (or wherever they were originally sold for that matter) because they're very big and heavy (I think they weigh something like 200-300lbs per cabinet). Not practical to ship internationally.

Fortunately shipping from Japan to my country is much, much cheaper than that from the US. Unfortunately, I haven't never seen it. Not on hi-fi do, not on Kenrick sound either. 🙁

obobskivich wrote:

The shape is interesting. The problem with Yamaha NS-1000 - or so I've read - is imaging. The imaging isn't really good, which is too bad for such speakers that do everything else right. 🙁

I only know the NS-1000 by reputation - as a fairly common/standard studio monitor from years ago. I would assume imaging is not a high priority. In general Yamaha speakers that I have owned or heard tend to concentrate on their on-axis performance, and not worry too much about off-axis. The EF speakers I pictured above are a great example - move too far out of their "sweet spot" and they're not very spectacular.

Same here. I've been reading a lot into it, and I always thought they're my dream speakers - until I heard about the so-so imaging. My JBL Tis are probably not as accurate as Yamaha NS 1000 (titanium dome tweeter < beryllium dome tweeter, not to mention the Yammies have beryllium dome midrange), but the Tis have great imaging.

obobskivich wrote:

The Technics SB-10000s seem to have excellent imaging by using smaller baffles for tweeters and squawkers. It's horn though. Maybe I'm over-generalizing, but after auditioning a pair of Klipschorn, I decidedly don't like it. 🙁

In my experience with horns there's Klipsch, and then there's everyone else. Klipsch speakers generally sound bright (bordering on harsh), very direct, and very "loud" (like they're yelling at you all the time); other horns aren't always so aggressively tuned. I've never heard the SB-10000 but based on other Technics speakers, I'd assume they're much more tame by comparison. Imaging with horns is usually dictated by the horn throat - the bigger and wider it is, the bigger and wider the speaker's dispersion pattern.

Hmmmm... I have to re-think my prejudice, then. 😁

What brands and models would you suggest? Like I said, I love accurate details and articulation, especially in HF range. I also hate "one-note treble" (the HF analog of one-note bass); that is, the ugly "tss tss tss" sound where everything in the HF is rolled into an amalgam of "tss". I used to be bass fanatics, but I don't like muddy sound. And although I don't like Klipschorn, I'm actually pretty immune to listening fatigue. So which horn speaker models would be the best?

obobskivich wrote:

Whoa, is that pure class A?

Claims to be. Don't know if it truly is - 350wpc from a pure Class A amplifier would be...spectacular. Most modern designs that offer that much power and advertise Class A operation will switch over to AB after a certain threshold, in order to increase output - usually you'll get like 10-20W in Class A (which is the vast majority of most people's continuous power needs covered), and it'll switch to AB to cover peaks up to whatever its rated to (200-300W or something).

Wonder how much it'll cost.

The most powerful class A amplifier is Boulder's Super Amplifer - 1500 watts class A at 8 ohm! Wonder how would it do to your power bill! 🤣

obobskivich wrote:

Well then it's true; it's not the concept, but the implementation.

Most decidedly. 😀

In my experience, simple and elegant will win out over complex and new-fangled any day.

IIRC that's also Nelson Pass' philosophy - simple amplifier for simple, single-driver loudspeakers. 😀

obobskivich wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Anyway, while we're at it, I wonder: what do you want from a loudspeaker?

Tonality. Hands-down. If voices don't sound real, if brass doesn't pop, and if basses don't groove - what's the point? 😊

Ah, so I guess the Yamaha NS 1000s are your dream speakers too, aren't they?

Malik wrote:

What I want from my speakers and setup is : […]
Show full quote

What I want from my speakers and setup is :

1. Surround Sound setup (even for music with something like the stereo surround option seen in Creative Labs CMSS)

2. Crystal clear instrument sounds.

3. And Deep Bass.

If I have all these three, I'm happy.

Of course, for all these, the source of the audio (original composition and recording) must be good in the first place.

Guess you would like JBL Tis; they have clear and articulate HF, deep bass, and great stereo imaging. The mid-lows do not seem really good though. I have an album of Harry Belafonte singing blues (aptly titled "Harry Belafonte Sings The Blues"), and his baritone vocal is rather muddy. I would blame the crossover though, they direct a large portion of the mid-frequency to the heavy aquaplas woofer instead of the midrange driver.

WolverineDK wrote:

I think I am getting a musical nerd/geek orgasm. Cause I love to look at loudspeakers. Such as those I can see.

Hey, same here!

Another source of my geekgasm is vintage amplifiers. I just love the sight of 1970s amplifiers and receivers - although I know that receivers generally have more distortion than amplifiers. I also love to look at 1970s JBL speakers, although I know they're not flat. I choose 1980s JBL Tis by pragmatism, but I have to admit that "west coast-era" speakers look cooler.

WolverineDK wrote:

But seriously though, what am I looking for in speakers and sound ? Well to be quite honest. I think the focus point for me, how I do like the sound of it. If they sound good, then they have a chance of having my interest. I got my Dali speakers cheap. And some people have actually been envious of them. Because they are in fine nick, and well to be frank I was just extremely lucky getting them as cheap as I got them.
I personally like a versatile speaker. Not really only one kind of speaker. And the Dali speakers I have are pretty versatile, and that includes anything from classical music to techno, and heavy metal. And the sound is pretty damn good. And since I like everything from classical music to heavy metal. Then for me, the choice of speakers was a lucky and good choice. My JBL PC speakers, I bought them. Because I knew they were good, a friend of mine, has a pair (just as old and the same series). And his still works, and kicks actually some serious arse. And guess what ? My own pair works just as well. So even if they are full tone units (not that I have looked). Then they are a great buy 😀

Ah, good, all-around flat response speakers. I guess you're lucky, your options are pretty wide.

Most horn speakers that I've heard that aren't Klipsch are professional speakers - Mackie, Altec, JBL, EV, etc. A lot of movie theaters also use horns. There's also Realistic's Mach series of speakers, if you can find those (more pertinently: find those with the original woofers still intact). Personally I don't love horns, but Klipsch is "worse than average" in that respect (imho). Horns are great for getting loud with not a lot of power, but the truth is power is pretty cheap these days (a 10W SET amplifier isn't top-of-the-mark). The other thing is that integrating a horn with a mid-range/bass driver takes some doing - horns are usually a lot more efficient than cone drivers (there's a veritable ocean of pro cabinets with a 15" LF and a horn and they sound like they don't even have woofers). My advice, if you want really good treble and really good integration -> electrostatic speakers. Sure, Ti and beryllium and so on are nice, but how about a (more or less) full-range driver that weighs less than the air it displaces? 😁 They kick out a planar wave too, for extra style points. 😎 As long as they're set right in your room, and your amplifier can hack it, they'll make sweet music all day and all night long. ESP headphones are also fantastic - there's a select few dynamic models that I'd consider even able to "hold their own" by comparison, and most of them have higher list-prices and rely on fairly exotic materials (the advantage is they can plug into something like an iPod or computer soundcard, vs requiring an ES amplifier).

As far as my dream speakers go - not sure about the NS-1000, but I'd gladly own a pair of full-range MartinLogans (like Prodigy or ElectroMotion), and if they weren't so bleeding expensive the Sonus Faber Guarneri is a very nice speaker too. I've always wanted to try the Bose 901 as well - but have never had a room suitable for them (they require a pretty wide room). Still kick myself for not grabbing those NHT Xd's when they closed out for like 70% off sticker a few years ago... 😵

That Technics amplifier is rare, but not hundreds-of-thousands rare (as far as I know); it's more finding one that's the problem. 😊 (I don't think Technics made many of them; I've seen the preamps and EQs from time to time, but never the actual amp unit). And its because of the big Boulder and Accuphase Class A amps that I question if that Technics is fully Class A through its entire operating range; it's nowhere near that huge. Personally I'm very content with my Class AB amplifiers for ~100W output, and if I needed larger output I'd look to move to a switching amplifier (QSC RMX5050 comes to mind...you know, I like my music, and so should my neighbors (and the people down the street, and in the next town over, etc)).

Well,here's a picture (not mine though)of my speakers.They still hold strong though,but the jack going to the audio port is worn,so sometimes I have buzzing on it,which goes away in a certain position.

obobskivich wrote:

Most horn speakers that I've heard that aren't Klipsch are professional speakers - Mackie, Altec, JBL, EV, etc. A lot of movie theaters also use horns.

Coincidentally, I've just read an article about the advantages of using horn speakers for HT. Sounds promising (no pun intended 😁 ).

obobskivich wrote:

There's also Realistic's Mach series of speakers, if you can find those (more pertinently: find those with the original woofers still intact). Personally I don't love horns, but Klipsch is "worse than average" in that respect (imho).

Makes me wonder why there are people who like Klipsch. 🤣

obobskivich wrote:

Horns are great for getting loud with not a lot of power, but the truth is power is pretty cheap these days (a 10W SET amplifier isn't top-of-the-mark).

There are still people who are fanatic about the first watt, though.

Well I'm not taking sides, but there are seems to be two schools of thought regarding amplifier power and loudspeaker's sensitivity.

(1) one group prefers low power amplifier with efficient speakers. They argue that low power amp is "purer", and generally have better first watt quality. So they put the burden on the loudspeaker designer, ie, how to design efficient yet refined loudspeakers.

(2) Another prefers high power amplifier with inefficient yet refined speakers. They argue that speakers are more important regarding sound quality. So they put the problem on the amplifier designer, it, how to design powerful yet pure amplifier.

A buddy of mine in Audiokarma is a staunch member of the second group. Himself uses Acoustic Research - accurate yet power-hungry loudspeakers. Me, I'm still not sure what to prefer. I'm happy with my 75 wpc sansui amp and 89 db/watt/meter loudspeakers.

obobskivich wrote:

The other thing is that integrating a horn with a mid-range/bass driver takes some doing - horns are usually a lot more efficient than cone drivers (there's a veritable ocean of pro cabinets with a 15" LF and a horn and they sound like they don't even have woofers). My advice, if you want really good treble and really good integration -> electrostatic speakers. Sure, Ti and beryllium and so on are nice, but how about a (more or less) full-range driver that weighs less than the air it displaces? 😁 They kick out a planar wave too, for extra style points. 😎 As long as they're set right in your room, and your amplifier can hack it, they'll make sweet music all day and all night long. ESP headphones are also fantastic - there's a select few dynamic models that I'd consider even able to "hold their own" by comparison, and most of them have higher list-prices and rely on fairly exotic materials (the advantage is they can plug into something like an iPod or computer soundcard, vs requiring an ES amplifier).

Well the problem with electrostats is their small sweet spot, but if I could put them right, why not?

obobskivich wrote:

As far as my dream speakers go - not sure about the NS-1000, but I'd gladly own a pair of full-range MartinLogans (like Prodigy or ElectroMotion), and if they weren't so bleeding expensive the Sonus Faber Guarneri is a very nice speaker too. I've always wanted to try the Bose 901 as well - but have never had a room suitable for them (they require a pretty wide room). Still kick myself for not grabbing those NHT Xd's when they closed out for like 70% off sticker a few years ago... 😵

Just FYI, many people hate Bose. But is that true they disappear well? The only Bose I've ever heard is from a friend's car audio, and I really don't like their sound.

obobskivich wrote:

That Technics amplifier is rare, but not hundreds-of-thousands rare (as far as I know); it's more finding one that's the problem. 😊 (I don't think Technics made many of them; I've seen the preamps and EQs from time to time, but never the actual amp unit). And its because of the big Boulder and Accuphase Class A amps that I question if that Technics is fully Class A through its entire operating range; it's nowhere near that huge. Personally I'm very content with my Class AB amplifiers for ~100W output, and if I needed larger output I'd look to move to a switching amplifier (QSC RMX5050 comes to mind...you know, I like my music, and so should my neighbors (and the people down the street, and in the next town over, etc)).

So, got eviction notice already? 🤣

Anyway, what kind of music you usually listen to?

PcBytes wrote:

Well,here's a picture (not mine though)of my speakers.They still hold strong though,but the jack going to the audio port is worn,so sometimes I have buzzing on it,which goes away in a certain position.

DTK? I thought DTK only makes motherboard. It is a German company, isn't it? IIRC German speakers are almost like Japanese speakers; bright and shine on the top end. Canton is an example.

Seems they're not made in Germany.DTK being founded in Jebel Ali Free Zone,UAE,most probably they're made in there.There's no sticker on it.

I had those speakers since 2000,and seem to still hold strong 😁

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

obobskivich wrote:

Most horn speakers that I've heard that aren't Klipsch are professional speakers - Mackie, Altec, JBL, EV, etc. A lot of movie theaters also use horns.

Coincidentally, I've just read an article about the advantages of using horn speakers for HT. Sounds promising (no pun intended 😁 ).

Yeah - HT is another story altogether once you get into the "lots of money" category - if you want the "reference experience" you're basically creating a screening room or scoring stage in your basement/attic/wherever. Horns can be a good way to accomplish the target output levels (e.g. to hit "Dolby Reference Level" (it's a thing) the system has to be able to sustain 85 dB continuously and hit peaks of 105 dB - horn speakers that have 90-100 dB/W sensitivity are a lot better equipped for that than cone speakers in the 80-90 W/dB range).

Personally I've never had an interest in having an entire "reference theater" in my home - I don't like center channels, and I've never been really big on surround sound; if you want a good example of this, watch Office Space in 5.1 and then switch to stereo. Not a whole lot changes. For gaming it's another story, of course - newer games like Oblivion and Mass Effect with 5.1-7.1 are pretty slick, if you have the desk/room space for all of that. For movies/TV though, I usually just have a nice stereo system and add in a pair of surrounds if the receiver/integrated amp/whatever-it-is lets me.

Makes me wonder why there are people who like Klipsch. 🤣

I think home-theater buffs are a big part of their following, and then there's also people who just really like bright speakers (or headphones). Availability is probably another factor - Klipsch speakers seem to be pretty easy to find to buy, either online or in a store.

There are still people who are fanatic about the first watt, though.

Heard about it before, kind of dismissed it as silly.

Well I'm not taking sides, but there are seems to be two schools of thought regarding amplifier power and loudspeaker's sensitivity.

(1) one group prefers low power amplifier with efficient speakers. They argue that low power amp is "purer", and generally have better first watt quality. So they put the burden on the loudspeaker designer, ie, how to design efficient yet refined loudspeakers.

(2) Another prefers high power amplifier with inefficient yet refined speakers. They argue that speakers are more important regarding sound quality. So they put the problem on the amplifier designer, it, how to design powerful yet pure amplifier.

I would think that, if appropriately thought out, either approach can probably lead to a very good sounding system - it's not like low power amplifiers have any inherent problem by nature, so as long as they're well put together they'll behave like any other decent amplifier, they just don't spit out as much power (most listening systems don't actually use more than a few watts per channel (on average) anyways; all of the extra power is just headroom). And as long as the speakers are sensitive enough to get that across, wham-bam no problem. It's just finding those speakers is more problematic these days (at least from what I've seen - most speaker designs have moved towards "inefficient yet refined" on the assumption that amplifier power is less of an issue) - the same goes the other way; there's no inherent flaw with less sensitive speakers, or with bigger amplifiers. From a raw compatibility view, the more powerful quality amplifier (like say it does 200-300Wpc and does it well) will be able to hook up to a wider range of speakers (from the super efficient to the fairly inefficient), whereas the lower output amplifier will have less on the table. But aside from that, it's probably half of one, six of the other.

A buddy of mine in Audiokarma is a staunch member of the second group. Himself uses Acoustic Research - accurate yet power-hungry loudspeakers. Me, I'm still not sure what to prefer. I'm happy with my 75 wpc sansui amp and 89 db/watt/meter loudspeakers.

I'd say we're probably in the same boat - most of my amplifiers are in that 50-100Wpc range (I have a big-ish Kenwood that does ~220Wpc, but it isn't hooked up to anything), and most speakers are in that 90-ish dB/W range. Works fine for me. 😀

Now, if you want to talk about something that makes no sense to me: super-efficient horn speakers and super-big amplifiers - like 100 dB/W+ speakers with 500-1000W/ch amplifiers. 😲

Well the problem with electrostats is their small sweet spot, but if I could put them right, why not?

Small sweet spot? What? 😕

They're big planar radiators - so the entire ES panel puts out the same wave across it, which means you don't have vertical or horizontal phase cancellation (nifty experiment if you have access to a line array, or at bare minimum an MTM; turn it on with some music and do squats in front of it - the frequency response will change as you go up and down). The wave is relatively confined to the radiator's output though (this is why MartinLogan curves their panels; I'm not aware of a Quad ESL that has a similarly curved panel) - as long as they're "aimed" towards your seating area you usually don't have much of a problem IME.

With headphones they're actually better-off than most dynamic models - you can move them around on your noggin and the frequency response doesn't seem to change that much (oh yes - headphone placement on the head does influence frequency response).

Just FYI, many people hate Bose. But is that true they disappear well? The only Bose I've ever heard is from a friend's car audio, and I really don't like their sound.

I'm not sure if this directly answers your question: I don't know that I'd say "disappear" consistently, but I will say that they tend to have good imaging owing to their fairly wide/dispersed radiation pattern coupled with (in most cases) a point-source design (e.g. a stereo pair can usually accomplish a nice phantom image with a fairly wide (and deep) sweet spot). Their frequency response tends to lean towards a treble-roll off without boosted bass (but remember they're also small speakers (even their "full-size" speakers only tout a single 8" woofer or a collection of smaller woofers) - they're unlikely to satisfy a very large listening space). For videogames, movies, TV, etc they're very good in my opinion - they add a bit of "smoothness" to everything. For music it's one or the other - either what they're doing works very well for the music at hand, or it doesn't. This is based on their home and PC speakers - the car audio speakers I've heard on test drives of a few vehicles - they were pretty bass heavy (but that's how most "premium sound" car audio systems are, isn't it?). Also heard from a mechanic that Bose car audio systems are like the bane of their existence, because they have noise-cancellation, and make it almost impossible to hear some noises from the car while driving it. I'm not a mechanic so I can't speak to whether or not that's true, but it's what I've been told. 😊

I've never heard their more esoteric designs, the 2201, 901, or 10.x series. I don't have a lot of interest in the 10.x, but the 2201 and 901 are curiosities I'd like to sample at some point. They also made some pretty robust amplifiers years ago for the 901 - relatively rare these days, but reportedly very good (and not just for Bose speakers).

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/59/59374f999e1268a57a43ecec21bf3b9420100a10ad3a55ba71cfa95cc73d5e3d.jpg […]
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HAH!

So, got eviction notice already? 🤣

I've actually never had a noise complaint - I think living in a house (versus a condo) is probably a big part of that (although you used to be able to hear my home theater system standing in my driveway; I've since toned things back quite a bit) - neighbors have never said a word.

Anyway, what kind of music you usually listen to?

Traditional pop, trance, some jazz, some classic rock, some hip-hop. Kind of all over the place I guess.

retro:

modern:

😊

Found some alright 80s Teac speakers at a thrift shop and got them hooked up to the Luxman amp.

Still keeping an eye out for something better, but these are quite good for now.

(The pic was taken during a 5-minute break from cleaning up, so yeah, extension cord all over the place, dusty, blegh. 😀 )

Great speakers 😀

obobskivich wrote:

Now, if you want to talk about something that makes no sense to me: super-efficient horn speakers and super-big amplifiers - like 100 dB/W+ speakers with 500-1000W/ch amplifiers. 😲

PA, anyone? 😉

obobskivich wrote:

Small sweet spot? What? 😕

They're big planar radiators - so the entire ES panel puts out the same wave across it, which means you don't have vertical or horizontal phase cancellation (nifty experiment if you have access to a line array, or at bare minimum an MTM; turn it on with some music and do squats in front of it - the frequency response will change as you go up and down). The wave is relatively confined to the radiator's output though (this is why MartinLogan curves their panels; I'm not aware of a Quad ESL that has a similarly curved panel) - as long as they're "aimed" towards your seating area you usually don't have much of a problem IME.

But shouldn't the sweet spot be small due to the directional nature of electrostats?

I remember auditioning a pair of electrostats with a group of people; imaging really got better when I moved into certain spot, but it was mediocre elsewhere. Then I read Wiki article about electrostats that mentions about their directional nature.

obobskivich wrote:

Traditional pop, trance, some jazz, some classic rock, some hip-hop. Kind of all over the place I guess.

I also listen to almost everything (except today's mainstream pop). I particularly like electronic music, especially trance. But when listening to good pairs of speakers, I always prefer acoustics, be it acoustic jazz (the one with contrabass), classical, or blues - they really shine that way.

retrofanatic wrote:

I just picked up this PIONEER SX-780 from a local thrift shop for only $7!!! The wood doesn't even have one scratch on it! It was in such great shape I had to give it a new home.

IMG_6861.jpg

IMG_3719.jpg

That SX-780 is an amazing piece and highly sought after by vintage audio collectors. You got a real steal there.

So, which game do you enjoy the most with your speakers?

To me, it's Dune (Dune 1, not Dune 2). My JBL 120Tis are famous for their tweeters, but its bass doesn't disappoint either (hey, we're talking about heavy 12" aquaplas woofers here! 😉 ).

When playing the game's intro using the JBLs, the bass is very satisfying. It's deep, but still tight and accurate. The Arrakis palace theme song is impressive too. Suffice to say that playing the game with a good pair of speakers makes it a brand new experience.

What's the opinion on the smaller, "semi-pro" Roland/Edirol monitors here? The MA series in particular.

d1stortion wrote:

What's the opinion on the smaller, "semi-pro" Roland/Edirol monitors here? The MA series in particular.

Never used Roland, but most small monitors from other makers (I've heard quite a few) tend to be top-heavy and bright unless you add a subwoofer. Of course there are some exceptions to this, hence "most."

Got a link to the ones you're looking at?

Kreshna Aryauguna Nurzaman:

I like the music from the first Mass Effect quite a lot (okay so it isn't an old game by any means, but still), as well as the first Halo. The Hitman games tend to have very good audio as well.

I was looking at something like the MA-7A or MA-15D. If I look around a bit more it seems like they have surprisingly medicore ratings...