BitWrangler wrote on 2022-03-29, 16:43:

Is it just me or is the price of TVGA ISA cards getting towards silly? There's no apparent lack of supply either. I mean you can ignore the ones listed at over $100 as excessively hopeful, but looking at sold listings they're regularly selling around $50. Still some listed a lot lower, oddly though they don't seem to be moving much volume at that price. My swiss cheesed brain seems to recall that mid 90s it was a $20 card, but I flipped through a few PC Mags on google books and couldn't find one, though listings like "Basic 16bit ISA SVGA" seemed likely that that was the card being sold. Anyway, I can understand "brand name" cards like Hercules, Matrox, ATI, Diamond etc selling at $50 plus when they were ~$150 cards, even if they had widely available chips on, but seems pretty weird that the generic bargain basement SVGA card is trending so high... even if they do have good compatibility.

TVGA, wasn't that just the most basic, generic ca. 1990 VGA with a Trident chip and oftentimes 512 kB maximum?
About as shitty as the potato-speed "OtiVGA"?

If so, well - the world has become a bit silly lately?

Also, well, if you want to have a 486 or older, you need a VGA addon card.
(I have some nice baby AT Asus S7 mobos with onboard graphics, actually.)
Any card will do but your need will be an integer above zero.
So, what does a market do with any limited supply?

Americans pay about $1,100 for an apartment, on average.
That's insane. But also the simple effect of "you can't produce real estate in a factory in Bangladesh".

There's a fixed effort to listing and storing a part.
A $ 10 part, you have to move it, not worth the storage cost.
A $ 50 part is worth storing for a while, if the price will be met eventually.

We've already seen the "worth building new ones on China" threshold broken with MPU-401 cards and waveblaster MIDI modules.
Simple VGA cards, probably not gonna happen in any broad way any soon.

Prices will drop when or if we really make it out of the covid shitfuckery.

Supply might rise once there are foolproof smartphone apps that auto-list your item with all the specs like they already exist for books - so more people will decide to sell some of their stash of sub-three-figure-items.

If there was truly an abundant, available supply, then the price would be less. That's the Occam's Razor of it, right?? The standard rules of supply and demand don't take a break just for retro computer gear. (unless there's some special racket going on? if so, what is it??)

And on top of that, heck, even things still happily rolling off the production line today - such as food items - are virtually double the price they were 5-10 years ago.

So I'm finding it hard to be surprised at this point.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:23:

If there was truly an abundant, available supply, then the price would be less. That's the Occam's Razor of it, right?? The sta […]
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If there was truly an abundant, available supply, then the price would be less. That's the Occam's Razor of it, right?? The standard rules of supply and demand don't take a break just for retro computer gear.

Unless we want to quantify exactly how there's some kind of special manipulation going on to sidestep those rules.

And on top of that, heck, even things still happily (and quickly) rolling off the production line TODAY - such as food items - are virtually double the price they were 5-10 years ago.

So there's little call for surprise at this point.

Then again, completely "virtual" or "aficionado" items like utterly obsolete IT should be relatively immune to normal or "official" inflation - at least short term, before price increase gets translated into higher wages - if that even happens. Meaning, whoever pays double for the loaf of bread is actually _less_ likely to spend a lot on vintage VGA.
So, that stuff must be as far away from a "rational" market as possible in real world terms or actually "the most rational market" but only for a very isolated segment of reality.
You know, like stamps, baseball cards or mf. crypto.

But, more importantly, you first statement:
In principle, yes. William of Ockham was a smart guy.
(He also was a 13th century monk, he would have burnt us on the stake.)

But, these items are still basically "non fungible" meaning the market size and retail price does not at all validate new production.

So, even the most abundant supply, like rusty nails, yet fixed would be more like crude oil.
Meaning, sell it now, sell it later, there's as much as there is. Open to speculation and artificial scarcity.

That's when storage cost comes into play.
The saying in German is, a commodity "does not eat grass" meaning it's not like a horse.
A palm-sized card for 100 is something else entirely that one for 10 - no point storing the latter, not worth the space. But for 100, let's not give it away.

But those are merely my amateur musings, old friend of mine has a phd in economics, I will ask him 😉

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-29, 19:56:

Also, well, if you want to have a 486 or older, you need a VGA addon card.
(I have some nice baby AT Asus S7 mobos with onboard graphics, actually.)
Any card will do but your need will be an integer above zero.

I didn't think to check actually, yeah, the whole pricing floor of any ISA VGA card has moved upwards. Also doh, completely forgot most of the cheap stock was coming out of Russia over a month ago, and now, isn't.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:43:

Then again, completely "virtual" or "aficionado" items like utterly obsolete IT should be relatively immune to normal or "official" inflation - at least short term, before price increase gets translated into higher wages - if that even happens. Meaning, whoever pays double for the loaf of bread is actually _less_ likely to spend a lot on vintage VGA.
So, that stuff must be as far away from a "rational" market as possible in real world terms or actually "the most rational market" but only for a very isolated segment of reality.
You know, like stamps, baseball cards or mf. crypto.

Like ebay.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:43:

But, more importantly, you first statement:
In principle, yes. William of Ockham was a smart guy.
(He also was a 13th century monk, he would have burnt us on the stake.)

Absolutely (many 21st century monk-or-otherwise probably would too, if not for Those Pesky Laws). Also, the Earl Of Sandwich gambled quite a lot, I've heard.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:43:

But, these items are still basically "non fungible" meaning the market size and retail price does not at all validate new production.

So, even the most abundant supply, like rusty nails, yet fixed would be more like crude oil.
Meaning, sell it now, sell it later, there's as much as there is. Open to speculation and artificial scarcity.

But perhaps, and primarily, actual scarcity too. It is not a one-or-the-other situation.

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:43:

That's when storage cost comes into play.

Just as it has, in a compounding manner, across the many years since cessation of production.

BitWrangler wrote on 2022-03-29, 20:48:

Also doh, completely forgot most of the cheap stock was coming out of Russia over a month ago, and now, isn't.

Real good point. A clear macro factor.

Quantum3D Obsidian2 S-12 PCI (3dfx Voodoo II 12 MB) sold for $348 USD.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185353941342

What is special about this Voodoo2 for it to sell for so much? Is it more than just an ordinary Voodoo2?

feipoa wrote on 2022-03-31, 01:13:

Quantum3D Obsidian2 S-12 PCI (3dfx Voodoo II 12 MB) sold for $348 USD.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/185353941342

What is special about this Voodoo2 for it to sell for so much? Is it more than just an ordinary Voodoo2?

I think quantum was a luxury enthusiasts brand back in the day , they had voodoos with extra features like ram expansion boards and I think they even had a sli voodoo 2 setup on a single card. Today they are very sought after by collectors.

Perhaps because it has svideo and CVBS outputs?

feipoa wrote on 2022-02-27, 12:18:

United Parcel Smashers - there has to be some good truth to that because every computer tower I've had shipped from the US to Canada via UPS has been damaged. I won't let the ship me anything anymore. FedEx is a lot more gentle with my packages, but their brokerage fees are ridiculous. Not like UPS's brokerage fees are any better though.

The story I heard from my brother that he heard from a UPS employee is that at their shipping hubs what often happens is there will be a freight elevator that they toss packages in to (which is risky enough), but then the real damage happens when the elevator is at the bottom of the shaft, and no one notices.

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-27, 21:18:

RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2022-03-27, 20:05:

Yes. 42.420,69€ = 42420 Euros + 69 Cents […]
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TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-27, 19:56:

Being an Aussie .. is the comma a replacement for a decimal point ?

so that would be 364.40 Euro and not 36k ?

Yes.
42.420,69€ = 42420 Euros + 69 Cents

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-27, 19:56:

That said $532 AUD for two Voodoo2s is a wee bit steep . .Jesus.
I picked both of my 12mb Monster IIs for 250 AUD for both or 171 Euro which is a little expensive but nothing absurd. (~85 Euro each)

Yeah, won a 12MB Monster II for 82€ (including shipping) a few weeks ago.

42,420.69 is how its written here thus my initial confusion, its odd how the EU uses the comma differently to the UK, for me my brain automatically reads it as a thousands separator.

The Indian system is confusing if you haven't encountered it before:

5,00,000 (Five lakh) = 500,000 (Five hundred thousand)

12,34,56,789 (Twelve crore thirty-four lakh fifty-six thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine) = 123,456,789 (One hundred and twenty-three million four hundred and fifty-six thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine)

17,00,00,00,000 (Seventeen arab) = 17,000,000,000 (Seventeen billion)

6,78,90,00,00,00,00,000 (Six padma seventy-eight nil ninety kharab) = 6,789,000,000,000,000 (Six quadrillion seven hundred and eighty nine trillion)

Or we have an elegant notation for a more civilised age such as £1/19/11+3⁄4d which is a farthing shy of two quid.

Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-03-31, 03:57:

feipoa wrote on 2022-02-27, 12:18:

United Parcel Smashers - there has to be some good truth to that because every computer tower I've had shipped from the US to Canada via UPS has been damaged. I won't let the ship me anything anymore. FedEx is a lot more gentle with my packages, but their brokerage fees are ridiculous. Not like UPS's brokerage fees are any better though.

The story I heard from my brother that he heard from a UPS employee is that at their shipping hubs what often happens is there will be a freight elevator that they toss packages in to (which is risky enough), but then the real damage happens when the elevator is at the bottom of the shaft, and no one notices.

I today paid 16,49 € shipping for a (really pretty nice) 23 € 1996 p133 full tower and some 350 km distance. By some deranged hellbound lunatics.
Seller promised me he'd wrapped it in a really huge box with loads of stuffings and I so pray that the backplate, frontplate and monopod will arrive unbroken.

But, uhm, fingers crossed?

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-31, 20:52:

I today paid 16,49 € shipping for a (really pretty nice) 23 € 1996 p133 full tower and some 350 km distance. By some deranged he […]
Show full quote

Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-03-31, 03:57:

feipoa wrote on 2022-02-27, 12:18:

United Parcel Smashers - there has to be some good truth to that because every computer tower I've had shipped from the US to Canada via UPS has been damaged. I won't let the ship me anything anymore. FedEx is a lot more gentle with my packages, but their brokerage fees are ridiculous. Not like UPS's brokerage fees are any better though.

The story I heard from my brother that he heard from a UPS employee is that at their shipping hubs what often happens is there will be a freight elevator that they toss packages in to (which is risky enough), but then the real damage happens when the elevator is at the bottom of the shaft, and no one notices.

I today paid 16,49 € shipping for a (really pretty nice) 23 € 1996 p133 full tower and some 350 km distance. By some deranged hellbound lunatics.
Seller promised me he'd wrapped it in a really huge box with loads of stuffings and I so pray that the backplate, frontplate and monopod will arrive unbroken.

But, uhm, fingers crossed?

A year or two back, I sent about 50 such boxes around the world (not containing computers, but fragile & weighty things nonetheless). 10+ cm of heavy duty packaging foam on every side, inside thick cardboard box. From the total, there were 1, possibly 2, breakages. The force required for those would have been impressive, they didn't just break a little bit, they broke a lot.

The rest however, made it through the postal gauntlet intact.

So imo your chances are high for a good outcome. 😀

/anecdote

Cuttoon wrote on 2022-03-31, 20:52:

I today paid 16,49 € shipping for a (really pretty nice) 23 € 1996 p133 full tower and some 350 km distance. By some deranged he […]
Show full quote

Repo Man11 wrote on 2022-03-31, 03:57:

feipoa wrote on 2022-02-27, 12:18:

United Parcel Smashers - there has to be some good truth to that because every computer tower I've had shipped from the US to Canada via UPS has been damaged. I won't let the ship me anything anymore. FedEx is a lot more gentle with my packages, but their brokerage fees are ridiculous. Not like UPS's brokerage fees are any better though.

The story I heard from my brother that he heard from a UPS employee is that at their shipping hubs what often happens is there will be a freight elevator that they toss packages in to (which is risky enough), but then the real damage happens when the elevator is at the bottom of the shaft, and no one notices.

I today paid 16,49 € shipping for a (really pretty nice) 23 € 1996 p133 full tower and some 350 km distance. By some deranged hellbound lunatics.
Seller promised me he'd wrapped it in a really huge box with loads of stuffings and I so pray that the backplate, frontplate and monopod will arrive unbroken.

But, uhm, fingers crossed?

I had some friends who lived in Washington state that I did long distance tech support for. One of the last times they sent their computer to me, I did a case upgrade; this gave me a nice box with styrofoam surrounds to ship it back to them in and I thought that this would ensure it arrived intact.

When they got it, my friend called me saying that when it powered on, there was no display. I was puzzled - my friend wasn't very technical, but he should have been able to sort out where to plug in the monitor cable. I thought maybe he was plugging it into the onboard video instead of the video card that I had installed so the kids could play some semi demanding games. But he got it working, so I thought all was well. The next time I visited them I discovered the problem. He had connected it to the onboard video because that was the only one that was working! I opened it up, and the case was slightly bent, and the clip securing the PCIe video card to the slot was broken! It had been dropped so hard that even in with the styrofoam packing, the case had been bent and that clip broke. Fortunately, I was able to secure the card well enough to work even without the clip.

Errius wrote on 2022-03-31, 07:27:

The Indian system is confusing if you haven't encountered it before: […]
Show full quote

TrashPanda wrote on 2022-03-27, 21:18:

RaiderOfLostVoodoo wrote on 2022-03-27, 20:05:

Yes.
42.420,69€ = 42420 Euros + 69 Cents

Yeah, won a 12MB Monster II for 82€ (including shipping) a few weeks ago.

42,420.69 is how its written here thus my initial confusion, its odd how the EU uses the comma differently to the UK, for me my brain automatically reads it as a thousands separator.

The Indian system is confusing if you haven't encountered it before:

5,00,000 (Five lakh) = 500,000 (Five hundred thousand)

12,34,56,789 (Twelve crore thirty-four lakh fifty-six thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine) = 123,456,789 (One hundred and twenty-three million four hundred and fifty-six thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine)

17,00,00,00,000 (Seventeen arab) = 17,000,000,000 (Seventeen billion)

6,78,90,00,00,00,00,000 (Six padma seventy-eight nil ninety kharab) = 6,789,000,000,000,000 (Six quadrillion seven hundred and eighty nine trillion)

Jesus .. I guess if you are familar with it, its easier to understand but for me ...I think it would take a while to learn it well enough to understand it fully

Not sure what the hell is going on with Voodo3 3000 prices but it seems like there is some nasty price hiking going on .. two auctions currently at $3200 AUD each with most other Voodoo cards currently 500 - 600 dollars higher than normal.

Are sellers fucking stupid >?

US prices seem to still be at normal pricing ...perhaps its just Australia thats getting these stupid prices.

Looking at the past 1-2 month sales on ebay, the rare sealed examples of Voodoo3 3000 attracted 3 sales between ~400 - 1200 USD. Standard first-class pricing for the upper crust. The people bidding on those have a lot of money and are making vanity or luxury purchases far beyond the normal means.

Meanwhile over that time, 20-odd unboxed ones sold for an average of around 140 USD.

Shreddoc wrote on 2022-04-08, 11:30:

Looking at the past 1-2 month sales on ebay, the rare sealed examples of Voodoo3 3000 attracted 3 sales between ~400 - 1200 USD. Standard first-class pricing for the upper crust. The people bidding on those have a lot of money and are making vanity or luxury purchases far beyond the normal means.

Meanwhile over that time, 20-odd unboxed ones sold for an average of around 140 USD.

Yea US prices are pretty stable but AUD prices are absurd right now.

my current approach from a reseller perspective has been "acquire everything out of ewaste and estate sales that's possible" because inflation is hovering around 5-7% annual here if not more, and is probably going to be that way through next year too. pricing for premium boxed/sealed items like voodoo3s or sound blasters is probably going to rise astronomically with people in the upper crust blowing money on them for collections, or youtubers buying them to do unboxing videos on as part of their income.

but regular everyday vintage computing items are just going to rise naturally with inflation and an ever-shortening supply. there's always those "found a storage unit full of macs at blind auction for $100" or "someone's unloading their relative's attic full of 80s computers" finds, but those are growing scarce in major metros. there'll probably be a plateau point where everyone in the genX and millennial demographics who wants their dream toys has gotten them, like what's happened with coleco/atari console/tandy stuff, but that's likely quite a ways off especially if more younger people continue to enter the hobby as has been happening. I find myself selling 486 PC and 68k mac systems to people who weren't even born when they were new.

also if you look at the mechanical keyboard hobby, it's a hobby driven by a young crowd who are involved with it for show-off factor on instagram as much if not more than they are for using the keyboards themselves. I find the mentality somewhat toxic and tend to avoid it where possible, but it's probably going to spill over into this section of the hobby more too.

I'm a genXer and am always happy to sell young people vintage stuff relatively cheap to encourage them in joining the hobby, because more people involved is just better for everyone.

libby wrote on 2022-04-09, 21:08:

my current approach from a reseller perspective has been "acquire everything out of ewaste and estate sales that's possible" bec […]
Show full quote

my current approach from a reseller perspective has been "acquire everything out of ewaste and estate sales that's possible" because inflation is hovering around 5-7% annual here if not more, and is probably going to be that way through next year too. pricing for premium boxed/sealed items like voodoo3s or sound blasters is probably going to rise astronomically with people in the upper crust blowing money on them for collections, or youtubers buying them to do unboxing videos on as part of their income.

but regular everyday vintage computing items are just going to rise naturally with inflation and an ever-shortening supply. there's always those "found a storage unit full of macs at blind auction for $100" or "someone's unloading their relative's attic full of 80s computers" finds, but those are growing scarce in major metros. there'll probably be a plateau point where everyone in the genX and millennial demographics who wants their dream toys has gotten them, like what's happened with coleco/atari console/tandy stuff, but that's likely quite a ways off especially if more younger people continue to enter the hobby as has been happening. I find myself selling 486 PC and 68k mac systems to people who weren't even born when they were new.

also if you look at the mechanical keyboard hobby, it's a hobby driven by a young crowd who are involved with it for show-off factor on instagram as much if not more than they are for using the keyboards themselves. I find the mentality somewhat toxic and tend to avoid it where possible, but it's probably going to spill over into this section of the hobby more too.

I'm a genXer and am always happy to sell young people vintage stuff relatively cheap to encourage them in joining the hobby, because more people involved is just better for everyone.

This is a lot like what I do and how I feel on this.

I'm a Gen Y kid who grew up along side the IBM PC. I've been at this 20+ years at this point. I remember a time when all of this stuff was peanuts. A time when I could back my old truck up to a thrift shop and fill it with PC's for the price of a large pizza at PaPa John's in that time's prices.

One thing I love about actually getting my old stuff out there is seeing it turn up again online or on e-bay to see that it's been well cared for and well loved for over a decade or two in some cases as of this point. I ran across a DEC 486 I sold I 2004 for $50 just a year or so ago on e-bay going for the same price. I remembered it because I could see where I had masked off the yellowed logo to put a coat of flat-white paint on it (these were the day's before RetroBriting was really a thing). IIRC someone bought it for almost $50 more than it was asking initially. I probably saved half the x86 population of Opelika Alabama in the first half of the 2000's by repairing/rebuilding it, and then sending it off to new homes all over the USA and even overseas occasionally. who knows, probably some of you guys are running on stuff I rebuilt/used in a build in the past 😜.