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Bring my (vibrant) colors back

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First post, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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So I played Duke Nukem 3D last night, utilizing the high resolution pack. It is one of the linear first-person shooters that I actually like, due to its fast and furious gameplay and its atmosphere. But I also noticed the graphics. Despite its new OpenGL graphics engine, Duke Nukem 3D still sports "cartoonish look", just like old DOS games in 256 color era like Ultima VI and X-COM: UFO Defense.

And I really love it.

And I actually like it waaaay better than the drab, "stonewashed" look of many games. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems such trend started since the "true" 3D era (the first Quake). I don't understand why many games choose to spot such look. Is it an attempt of photorealism? Dirt 2 sports such advanced pixel shader features, but its overall look is drab and washed out despite how many colors 32-bit color mode can provide. No thanks, not me. I'd take cartoonish look and vibrant color any day.

But first thing first, my preference on cartoonish-looking graphics is regardless of gameplay. In other words, all other things being equal (including fun factor), I always prefer WarCraft III-esque cartoonish look over drab-and-dull "photorealism". My opinion about cartoonish look vs photorealism is being made in the context of graphics and graphics alone.

Note: I use the term "photorealism" quite liberally. I understand that actual photos have typically richer colors than "photorealistic" graphics of modern games. I merely use the term "photorealism" to stress its difference against cartoonish-looking graphics, but if you can find a more accurate term, then by all means.

Back to the topic, take a look at the following WarCraft III screenshot as example:
screenshot-warcraft3.jpg
WarCraft III's cartoonish look.

Take a look at the picture above; trees and grasses look healthily green, the piece of cloth covering the knight's horses looks beautifully blue, the chimney's red brick stood in contrast against the other colors. And most of it, the overall colors are all rich and vibrant.

Now, take a look at the following Dirt 2 screenshot for comparison:
screenshot-dirt2.jpg
Dirt2 washed look.

What the hell. The brown cliff is not really that brown, the green grass look totally un-vibrant, the race track looks like an unhealthy mixture between pale green and pale gray. Everything looks drab and washed like a worn-out battle dress uniform. Probably I was wrong to call it "photorealism", and I doubt it, since even a cheap digital camera could take more vibrant colors than that.

That's the entire point of my complaint: modern graphics engines have such advanced shader model and 32-bit color, which translates to millions of color. Yet, most graphic artists in modern games choose to draw million and million shades of pale brown (or pale green, or pale grey, whatever) instead of the richness and vibrancy 32-bit color can provide.

Not-so-modern games also suffer from such thing. For example, why does everything in Quake (the first Quake), for example, have to be colored with boring shades of brown? Is it an attempt of photorealism? Even Doom 2 puts more color --more vibrant color-- despite its more primitive graphics.

Fortunately, not all game designer follows such trend. Take a look at Red Alert 2, for example. It has richer colors than that of the first Command & Conquer. Yes, it looks more cartoonish than the first Command & Conquer, and it looks more like GI Joe instead of Saving Private Ryan. But heck, why not? Not every game has to sport the "grim and gritty look" that Quake does. I also realize that choice of colors is also constrained by theme. Fallout has a post-apocalyptic theme, so it is inappropriate to give it a cartoonish look like that of WarCraft 2. But again, not every game has to sport a Mad Max theme. Fantasy-themed games provide a good opportunity to feature cartoonish-looking graphics, with all the rich and vibrant color 32-bit color mode can provide. Superhero games also give more room for cartoonish creativity, and Freedom Force looks pleasing to the eye.

But then again, my preference for cartoonish-look graphics is made in the context of graphics and graphics alone. I still choose fun gameplay over vibrant colors. Take a look at Fallout 2; the graphics look washed and drab, but it is still a game I highly praise for its gameplay, despite its drab and un-vibrant colors. Besides, Fallout has excuse; it is a post apocalyptic-themed game. What is your excuse, Hexen II?

screenshot-fallout.jpg
Fallout: a game I highly praise despite its washed colors.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 3 of 48, by leileilol

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Not-so-modern games also suffer from such thing. For example, why does everything in Quake (the first Quake), for example, have to be colored with boring shades of brown? Is it an attempt of photorealism? Even Doom 2 puts more color --more vibrant color-- despite its more primitive graphics.

16x16 palette arrangement for lighting, with the last two rows as fullbright colors. this leaves not a lot to shade with

Q3A kind of solved that problem.

also that doom2 screenshot is from a gl port with a contrast adjustment - the doom palette is also as muddy, but more grey dominant than brown

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Reply 4 of 48, by F2bnp

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I agree with you Keshna. Anyone ever tried Far Cry 2? I think it was the worst thing ever. Far Cry 1 was so awesome and vibrant looking and then when I installed FC2 I was so pissed off. After playing for a while and realizing that it was also one of those FPS games that think that GTA style suits them, I gave it a big fuck you and installed FC1 right away to come to my senses. I also like that you make reference to X-COM, a game about killing and capturing aliens. Yet it was very colourful! Probably one of my favorite games of all time as well.

Reply 5 of 48, by bushwack

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All dependent on the game and one's preference I would think.

I love Duke 3D, but I don't like to play it with the HD pack. Same with the Dooms. I loved WarCraft 2, but didn't care for the graphics WC3. I think Fallout 3 graphics fit the game perfect, I played it with the Fellout mod to add color to plants, water, sky and such, but it ruined the feel of the game for me.

I loved Red Alert 2's graphics (and game) , but didn't care for any of the C&C games after that. Maybe the use of less colors?

Reply 6 of 48, by BigBodZod

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bushwack wrote:

All dependent on the game and one's preference I would think.

I love Duke 3D, but I don't like to play it with the HD pack. Same with the Dooms. I loved WarCraft 2, but didn't care for the graphics WC3. I think Fallout 3 graphics fit the game perfect, I played it with the Fellout mod to add color to plants, water, sky and such, but it ruined the feel of the game for me.

I loved Red Alert 2's graphics (and game) , but didn't care for any of the C&C games after that. Maybe the use of less colors?

Yeah, totally agree, it's a matter of taste.

Dirt 2 looks the way it does as it probably is using motion blurring affects which tends to make colors and palettes appear washed out and drab looking.

I also agree that Fallout 3 looks just about right for the game world you are playing in, would be nice to see a few small patches of green however as I think at some point plants would have come back over a couple of centuries 😉

No matter where you go, there you are...

Reply 7 of 48, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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ADDiCT wrote:

I have the perfect solution for you: try playing games made for children ages 5+ to maybe 10. Lots of colours in those, you won't be disappointed.

In case you didn't notice, it is not such kids/educational games that are being complained in this thread. icon_rolleyes.gif

F2bnp wrote:

I agree with you Keshna. Anyone ever tried Far Cry 2? I think it was the worst thing ever. Far Cry 1 was so awesome and vibrant looking and then when I installed FC2 I was so pissed off.

Agree, and that's why I believe it is a trend instead of technological limitation. I don't know what drives such trend though. Maybe it is the designer's attempt at photorealism, although even real photographs do not look as washed out as Dirt 2, for instance.

bushwack wrote:

I think Fallout 3 graphics fit the game perfect, I played it with the Fellout mod to add color to plants, water, sky and such, but it ruined the feel of the game for me.

There are thematic constraint. Fallout is a game of post-nuclear adventure, which naturally has a strong used future concept. Thus, the drabness is understandable and believable even though I don't like it too much. However, I don't see the reason why fantasy games like Hexen II have to look so washed.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 9 of 48, by leileilol

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Hexen II have to look so washed.

Overbright in 8-bit color demands less saturated color shades to work properly. I hated this too and altered the palette to be more colorful

Also for fun, compare GTA's 8 and 24 color depth versions - though this is more like 1996 (what could have been) vs. 1997 art evolution style but both have their own unique atmosphere. Everyone is mostly familiar with the 24bpp version though

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Reply 10 of 48, by Malik

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I'm not very sure how graphic's colour technologies work, but I just wish people use the available technology properly and smartly and to the full extent to create a warm and pleasing experience to go along with a good gameplay, rather than jumping higher and higher on the advanced tech bandwagon, leaving the current system underutilized.

I just hope the developers create GAMES, instead of tech demos (CRYSIS et al, anyone?) that make people CRY rather than enjoying it. You buy a game to enjoy it, not to keep upgrading your pc all the time, just to keep up with a newer 3D engine. Sigh.

Even EGA games with intelligent colour-use look good and can still captivate the playing minds. I just took out my UbiSoft's NightHunter game and was playing it. Still nice, even without a soundcard support.

Night_hunter_02.png

Night_hunter_01.png

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Reply 11 of 48, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Malik wrote:

I'm not very sure how graphic's colour technologies work, but I just wish people use the available technology properly and smartly and to the full extent to create a warm and pleasing experience to go along with a good gameplay, rather than jumping higher and higher on the advanced tech bandwagon, leaving the current system underutilized.

Agree, the EGA screenshots look warmer than those of most 3D games today. Granted the grass in the second screenshot is a little drab and pale, but hey, it is EGA (256 color VGA like that of X-COM and Ultima 6 would be better).

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 12 of 48, by sliderider

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The problem with today's graphic cards is that they show too many colors in too many resolutions. The human eye can only distinguish a certain number of colors and pixels on screen at the same time and the video cards of today can display far more than we can distinguish. you can draw a blue line of 100 pixels in any paint program with every pixel being only one r,g, or b value off from the one beside it and the line would look like a solid color. Back when you could only display 16 or 256 colors on screen at once, every color stood out from the rest which gave the colors that warm feel we remember not like the mushy, washed out colors or the neon loud colors you see in games today.

Reply 13 of 48, by eL_PuSHeR

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It seems the human eye can distinguish about 10 million colour shades. For me it's bad palette choosing or polygons that are just plain ugly. Remember for instance, those old graphical adventures with beautifully hand-drawn sprites and nowadays ones with polygons. No matter how good you draw, a polygon will always be a polygon, constricted by your graphic cards capabilities.

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Reply 14 of 48, by bushwack

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sliderider wrote:

The problem with today's graphic cards is that they show too many colors in too many resolutions.

Run todays games at 640X480?

sliderider wrote:

. Back when you could only display 16 or 256 colors on screen at once, every color stood out from the rest which gave the colors that warm feel we remember not like the mushy, washed out colors or the neon loud colors you see in games today.

Today's neon loud colors? Look at the Night Hunter pics above, that green and aqua blue is in the neon class my friend. 😜 😁

Reply 15 of 48, by ADDiCT

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The premise of this thread is plain silly. Comparing the "colour-ness" of the two example screenshots is comparing apples to oranges. Both are fruit, but with a very different shape and taste.

I think there's a few "hard facts" to consider when looking at game graphics:

- Technical aspects. Photo-realistic graphics were impossible until quite recently. Old DOS and 8/16-bit games had to look good with a very limited colour palette and resolution. There were no fancy shaders and graphic tricks like filters and stuff. So I guess devs basically had two choices: go for the "cartoonish" look (=relatively simple shapes, bright colours) or try to make their graphics look realistic with the limited technical capabilities of the target machine(s). The latter is very, very hard to do of course. You can easily distinguish between different "generations" of graphics when looking at old games. The shots in the OP are at least three generations "apart", so it's no wonder they look very different.

- Design aspects. Some games are "brighter" than others by default, because their subject matter is very different. Take for example a light-hearted adventure game like a game in the Monkey Island series and compare it to, say, Quake. One game delivers its graphics in a funny, light hearted way, the other in a a much more "sinister" and "brooding" one, according to the general style and subject matter of the respective game. The graphic design conveys a large part of what a game is about, so it has to fit the theme of the game. You can't have, for example, Guybrush running around in a sinister looking broken, burned-down landscape and solve his puzzles while the unnamed Quake character jumps gayly through super-green meadows, picking up colourful flowers while pumping lead into demons. The same is true for the two example screenshots in the OP: one game tries to realistically recreate a dirty race track, while the other takes us to a fantasy world inhabited by trolls and elves. The fact that WC2, the predecessor of WC3, had a very "cartoonish" quality to it (not only graphics-wise, which is probably partly due to the fact that the game was released at a time where it was impossible to recreate photo-realistic graphics in real time, but also in the way characters are portrayed or sound effects are implemented) is probably another reason why WC3 looks like it does.

- Taste and perception. Those can't really be discussed. As you should know, colours are nothing but different wavelengths of light which are received through our eyes. The actual colours are a product of our brain. Every brain works differently, so you can't be 100% sure you're "seeing" (or rather, perceiving) graphics the same way your fellow humans do. Besides, different people prefer different styles, that's what we call "taste". The OP might be a fan of simple, colourful stuff (that's why i recommended children games in an earlier post, as they probably deliver exactly what he describes), but other people prefer other styles. These aspects alone make the original post pretty pointless.

Also, i have to say I think this "old games are so much better than new ones" thing that shines through some of the posts in this thread is pretty silly as well. Are you seriously comparing, say, a C-64 game to a modern Xbox 360 title? I wouldn't even want to start to describe how much games and gaming have evolved in the time between those generations. Not only the technical possibilites have changes dramatically, but also the target group(s). And that evolution is not ending anytime soon. So, either learn to adapt and accept new (and possibly exciting!) possibilites, or shut up and play your 8-bit classics until you die. This behaviour reminds me of old people not wanting (or being able able to) change, for example, their eating habits. You know, you have to have three meals a day, and the middle meal must be served at noon, has to be cooked and has to contain meat. Anything else is an abomination.

I like old games, but I honestly can't play most of them anymore. Not because I don't like the graphics but because they are simply crap compared to modern titles. This could be a subjective thing, but I honestly think they are crap even when looking in a objective way. Many old games are not very well balanced (either too easy or too hard), too restrictive or something like that. Stuff that doesn't make me enjoy them anyway. I did enjoy them when i was young, but that was 20 years ago. I have grown up, and so has gaming. I can still appreciate pixel art and early games as part of gaming history or as as pieces of art, by the way. But I'd rather play games that blow me away by their complexity and gameplay, art style or graphic execution.

Oh, and: KAN, if you really think grass should look like R:0 G:255 B:0 then you should either go outside more often or cut down on the shrooms.

EDIT: some spelling/wording

Last edited by ADDiCT on 2010-07-12, 10:01. Edited 3 times in total.

Reply 16 of 48, by sliderider

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"Also, i have to say I think this "old games are so much better than new ones" thing that shines through some of the posts in this thread is pretty silly as well. Are you seriously comparing, say, a C-64 game to a modern Xbox 360 title?"

Have you seen some of the games for the Nintendo Wii? I have a Wii that just sits here collecting dust because most of the games are crap and yet I still play old DOS and yes Commodore 64 games daily. I also have almost a hundred games for my 360 and most of them I haven't touched since I bought them, so YES, the old games are better.

Reply 18 of 48, by Malik

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To ADDiCT :

VOGONS = Very OLD Games On New Systems.

Saying this thread is plain silly is, silly in itself when discussing here. No offense, but we want to maintain a healthy and friendly discussions here.

Don't know how old you are, but telling someone to go and play a game made for 5+ child is itself childish and inappropriate.

If you want to discuss a topic pertaining to the thread, then please feel free. Else, don't cause inflamed and sarcastic remarks here. There are other sites glorifying and catering for high end graphics for new games.

I didn't want to post this, but too many sarcasm will prompt anyone to say something someday. Maybe you just don't realize what you're saying.

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Reply 19 of 48, by Anonymous Freak

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Except I would agree, as the parent of a 5 year old, with the "go play a game made for a 5+ year old" comment.

There are many games made for youngsters that use bright colors to draw the kid in; but which are halfway decent games in their own right. (Don't know of any PC games like that at the moment, mostly because my daughter doesn't game on a PC, so I haven't bothered buying PC kids games, but from what's on consoles, I have to imagine they're available for PCs, too.)