VOGONS is no marketplace!

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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Jorpho » 2011-2-17 @ 23:28

Dominus wrote:Why spoil a good thing with unnecessary trades? Like others pointed out before the forum wasn't even meant to be a haven for people with junk machines (no offense meant).
That happened...
Then the occasional trade happened...
Then there were more...
Now either stop that or be slowly swarmed with it by people who are only here because google results lead them here for getting rid or buying old junk (again no offense meant - just being extra harsh for setting the point).
And if your forum is not meant for dealings then don't allow it - that simple.
As a lawyer you must be aware that other countries might treat that differently than the US. And why risk even a costly legal fight you know you might win in the end but until then will have to pay lawyers nethertheless? No fun in that justbecause you know you are right.


I kind of agree that it would be rather unusual if a person who, having gotten burned by a deal, would choose to go after whoever runs the forum on which the deal was transacted. But then, this board seems to see a lot of unusual stuff.

And indeed, just because someone doesn't necessarily have a legitimate case doesn't mean he can't cause a lot of headaches one way or another.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby digitaldoofus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:29

Dominus wrote:...And why risk even a costly legal fight you know you might win in the end but until then will have to pay lawyers nethertheless? No fun in that justbecause you know you are right.


I won't belabor my point...but I long for the day when a client will walk into my office and attempt to hire me for $200 per hour to try to recover from a forum moderator the $80 bucks he sent away to a poster for an undelivered Gravis Ultrasound card. :money:
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:38

digitaldoofus wrote:
Dominus wrote:...And why risk even a costly legal fight you know you might win in the end but until then will have to pay lawyers nethertheless? No fun in that justbecause you know you are right.


I won't belabor my point...but I long for the day when a client will walk into my office and attempt to hire me for $200 per hour to try to recover from a forum moderator the $80 bucks he sent away to a poster for an undelivered Gravis Ultrasound card. :money:

However if he sues because of the emotional problems he got because he didn't getthe junk, the depressions and such... how he lost his job because of the depression, how the blackness grew bigger and he lost his liver due to the drinking the blackness drove him to, how his wife left him and so on... Just because he didn't get the Gravis card!!!!
(yes, I see your point, just wanted to add a little drama;))
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Tetrium » 2011-2-17 @ 23:40

Dominus wrote:
digitaldoofus wrote:
Dominus wrote:...And why risk even a costly legal fight you know you might win in the end but until then will have to pay lawyers nethertheless? No fun in that justbecause you know you are right.


I won't belabor my point...but I long for the day when a client will walk into my office and attempt to hire me for $200 per hour to try to recover from a forum moderator the $80 bucks he sent away to a poster for an undelivered Gravis Ultrasound card. :money:

However if he sues because of the emotional problems he got because he didn't getthe junk, the depressions and such... how he lost his job because of the depression, how the blackness grew bigger and he lost his liver due to the drinking the blackness drove him to, how his wife left him and so on... Just because he didn't get the Gravis card!!!!
(yes, I see your point, just wanted to add a little drama;))

You forgot about the dog running away :P
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:45

Aw, the dog... Never forget the dog...
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby digitaldoofus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:48

You know, if things absolutely MUST be changed, I think a possible solution might be to DISALLOW the "detailed" posts about sales, trades, etc....yet allow what I would call "Invitations To Barter" (ITB's. And yes, I just made that phrase up).

These would NOT allow specific price lists, or specific hardware lists, but would simply mention in a VAGUE way what the poster wants or has to offer, and INVITE readers to PM them for their personal e-mail (if not provided in their VOGONS profile) in order to receive the "detailed" list of transactable items, or to discuss matters further through direct emails.

There could even be a separate section of VOGONS that contained these "ITB" posts, to keep them out of the way of the mainstream discussions, if necessary. In other words, these "ITB" posts would simply be saying "I've got some [386 motherboard, for example] stuff, email me outside of VOGONS" or "I want some [Orchid soundcard, for example] stuff, email me outside of VOGONS" and that would really isolate such transactions into a much more "distanced" position with regard to this forum. Containing no fixed prices, they would fail (on terms of vagueness) to produce a legal offer or acceptance, thus no contractual liability could emanate from their posting on VOGONS. And it would also satisfy members' desires to occasionally exchange items with one another.

Just a thought.
Last edited by digitaldoofus on 2011-2-17 @ 23:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:54

I think it was made clear things must change and how they must change. Our discussion here (starting from the second post down) is just for fun after the descision was made public ;)
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby digitaldoofus » 2011-2-17 @ 23:58

Dominus wrote:I think it was made clear things must change and how they must change. Our discussion here (starting from the second post down) is just for fun after the descision was made public ;)


Things changed. Things can change again. Heck, the same changers can change things again. Why would things now be unalterable after the first two posts? Sure, the rule is now -- and continues to be -- in effect, but things are ALWAYS subject to change..."again".

I know the creators of DOSBOX don't have closed minds. Heck, anything but!! They are creative geniuses!! They "think different", to use an old Apple truism. So, I believe that they will listen to additional thoughts on the matter...and that further comments from forum users are not necessarily "just for fun", but might even eventually produce a "better" solution than the "total blackout" of transaction activity which is now in effect.

:)
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-18 @ 00:10

Your tone was suggesting that solutions for MUST be found for the few traders here. Just like your posts suggests that this rule has a huge impact on all vogons users... Which I don't think it has. How many have actually traded here? Not that many I think - right time to stop it, especially, as I wrote before, when this is not at all the intended purpose of the forum.
I think this was fixed with the first post (not the second). My experience with this forum leads me to believe this.
Nice try with the honey though (praising the mods...) ;)
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby digitaldoofus » 2011-2-18 @ 00:14

Dominus wrote:Your tone was suggesting that solutions for MUST be found for the few traders here. Just like your posts suggests that this rule has a huge impact on all vogons users...


I didn't know my tone implied those two assertions. I shall have to craft my sentences more carefully in the future! :)

(PS: I didn't really try to "butter up" the creators of DOSBOX; to someone like ME -- who doesn't write code -- such people ARE truly creative geniuses...so my compliment was sincere)
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Jorpho » 2011-2-18 @ 00:19

digitaldoofus wrote:You know, if things absolutely MUST be changed, I think a possible solution might be to DISALLOW the "detailed" posts about sales, trades, etc....yet allow what I would call "Invitations To Barter" (ITB's. And yes, I just made that phrase up).

These would NOT allow specific price lists, or specific hardware lists, but would simply mention in a VAGUE way what the poster wants or has to offer, and INVITE readers to PM them for their personal e-mail (if not provided in their VOGONS profile) in order to receive the "detailed" list of transactable items, or to discuss matters further through direct emails.

There could even be a separate section of VOGONS that contained these "ITB" posts, to keep them out of the way of the mainstream discussions, if necessary. In other words, these "ITB" posts would simply be saying "I've got some [386 motherboard, for example] stuff, email me outside of VOGONS" or "I want some [Orchid soundcard, for example] stuff, email me outside of VOGONS" and that would really isolate such transactions into a much more "distanced" position with regard to this forum. Containing no fixed prices, they would fail (on terms of vagueness) to produce a legal offer or acceptance, thus no contractual liability could emanate from their posting on VOGONS. And it would also satisfy members' desires to occasionally exchange items with one another.

Just a thought.
Why not just stick a note in one's sig and be done with it?
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Qbix » 2011-2-18 @ 07:36

The decision to disallow it, is not up for discussion; the rules are not in a-might-be-changed state. They already have changed at the moment I made the post.

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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-18 @ 08:54

While we are having fun, legally more problematic than the trading here, are the avatars being used. Copyright infringements en masse. Otoh I'm not sure how such a use of pictures is looked at in the US where the forum is located, perhaps this falls in the fair use area. I know that in Germany some blogs did have problems and had to pay some kind of "cease & desist charge" (special german law thing) and therefore some forums try to enforce avatars without copyrights. Probably fair use in the US.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Tetrium » 2011-2-18 @ 12:26

I just want to point 1 thing out.

I'm also visiting a couple clan forums and one of them is getting more and more restricted.
It used to be a very good forum to hang around until they started making more and more rules.
Examples:
*At some point they autocorrected all ALL CAPS posts to "All caps".
*They enforced the (imo very pitty) maximum signature by removing any sig that was 1 pixel too wide or high without telling the owner beforehand. Worse, one of the clan members (also a server admin) was allowed to keep his very large signature.
*Their server is getting ruined by cheaters because they will not trust new and motivated members with admin rights.
In the end this caused me to leave this otherwise outstanding clan.

The thing is, enforcing rules is good and placing new rules to prevent a problem from getting out of hand is excellent.
But I besiege the admins of this forum to please NOT go that route!
It will slowly choke everyones motivation!!

If the original authors really have a problem with people using copyrighted avatars, please let them come here and complain. Otherwise it'll just become a secret police hunt, spoiling all the good that is on this forum.

Vogons is absolutely one of THE most fun forums to visit and people respect eachother a LOT here! And people are very warm to any newcomers. There is an almost complete absence of this 1337ness that plagues other forums, and seeing that get destroyed would really hurt my heart (sorry if I sound so mouchy!)
This is one of THE best forums to hang out at and share discussion.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Dominus » 2011-2-18 @ 12:38

I can understand leaving because of the cheaters but because shouting was autocorrected or too large signatures? Wow...
Btw, too large or very annoying signatures have been corrected here, too. And I wouldn't mind having shouted subjects corrected to normal volume...
And about the avatars, I don't care about that at all, ultimately it's not my problem, i just wanted to give a warning of this before a copyright owner comes and sues (they rarely complain, especially the bigger the company is). Just to make people aware of this and then let them decide they don't care.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby ratfink » 2011-2-18 @ 13:30

As one of those people who started a recent thread on items for sale, I just wanted to say this.

1. Sorry!

2. It's not such a big deal to be told "don't do it". It was a just a few items and not a major part of my gear. It's clear plenty of people here search ebay anyway, putting items here is to some extent just laziness.

3. What might be worth clarifying - though we don't want to get too complex or specific with the rules - is where we stand with people starting threads about ebay actions. I think sometimes they are taking the piss and just pushing their own fairly mediocre stuff [even if it is retro], but sometimes it's really interesting and deserves a topic like the recent one on quantum3d cards. Need to not start a lot of threads just linking ebay auctions unless they are genuinely unusual items. We could have a thread "Rare retro items I saw for sale", but I'm not sure that doesn't feel wrong right now...

4. This idea of using signatures. Eventually it will be taken too far and will become an advertising banner for some people. So maybe some view from the moderators on this might save angst in future?
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby retro games 100 » 2011-2-18 @ 13:39

ratfink wrote:As one of those people who started a recent thread on items for sale, I just wanted to say this.

1. Sorry!

Thanks very much for posting that thread. If I hadn't seen it, I would never have bought my first POD 83 chip. I'm far more motivated to buy retro items from someone here on Vogons, rather than a complete unknown on ebay. It's excellent by the way, and concludes yet another successful and enjoyable retro purchase on Vogons.

This website has allowed "for sale" threads to exist for years. Now overnight, all of them are banned which seems a bit harsh. Why not allow only one single sale/trade thread to remain, with a disclaimer in post #1 saying "use at your own risk, bla..." If anyone posts outside of it, their message could either be appended to this single sale/trade thread, or deleted, whichever seems easier.
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby Jorpho » 2011-2-18 @ 14:03

Tetrium wrote:*At some point they autocorrected all ALL CAPS posts to "All caps".
Actually, that seems perfectly reasonable.
Vogons is absolutely one of THE most fun forums to visit and people respect eachother a LOT here! And people are very warm to any newcomers. There is an almost complete absence of this 1337ness that plagues other forums, and seeing that get destroyed would really hurt my heart (sorry if I sound so mouchy!)
This is one of THE best forums to hang out at and share discussion.
:neutral:
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby digitaldoofus » 2011-2-18 @ 16:14

Folks, we have been told "shut up and play by the rules as stated". No further elaboration or guidance is needed. If you can't understand that, this forum might not be "for you". If the mods at some point want to change the rules, they will again tell us.

Can't we move on to another thread and topic?

(PS: I'm not trying to be rude. Use your brains regarding what you can do in this forum, though...please!) ;)
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Re: VOGONS is no marketplace!

Postby cdoublejj » 2011-2-18 @ 21:20

What if some one makes their own retro hardware trading site and vogons could have a banner or an easy access link to it. you ca let peopel trade and you have nothing to do with it.
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