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Reply 20 of 45, by Mau1wurf1977

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System Shock is the #1 requested Game on GOG.com. Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman has a point.

Maybe focus on games that simply don't exist anymore. Like Legend Entertainment's Gateway. Now if one made a similar game to this one it would be an instant purchase from me 😀

Last edited by Mau1wurf1977 on 2012-10-05, 13:53. Edited 1 time in total.

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Reply 21 of 45, by MasterM

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Jorpho wrote:

So... What is it that can't be accomplished using mods to the Quake engine?

I'd like to have 100% creative freedom when it comes to code and not be constrained by idTech assumptions about gameplay etc. Also I have far more experience in generic game programming using OpenGL than writing Quake mods.

Jorpho wrote:

Also, can OpenGL be used in DOS?

I dropped DOS version idea, sorry. 😀

Joey_sw wrote:

and the themes?

Definitely hi-tech sci-fi with unrealistic arcade gameplay.

Reply 22 of 45, by Jorpho

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

That's much different than, say, Ultima Underworld. Even with the likes of Skyrim out there, Ultima Underworld doesn't feel boring and repetitive. And despite its primitive graphics, I still enjoy re-playing it again after almost twenty years. I do not play Ultima Underworld - and many old games, for that matter - for nostalgic reason alone; I play it because of its great storyline and interesting gameplay.

...Do you have something against UU2, or do you play them both? (How about Arx Fatalis?)

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Maybe focus on games that simply don't exist anymore. Like Legend Entertainment's Gateway. Now if one made a similar game to this one it would be an instant purchase from me 😀

Text adventures with pictures? People still make those. Have you tried 1893 ? (I think that was in one of the indie bundles a while back.)

MasterM wrote:

not be constrained by idTech assumptions about gameplay etc.

I am genuinely curious as to what sort of assumptions you think are immutably inherent to the engine.

Reply 23 of 45, by Mau1wurf1977

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Jorpho wrote:

Text adventures with pictures? People still make those. Have you tried 1893 ? (I think that was in one of the indie bundles a while back.)

Oh wow, nope didn't know about this one! Awesome.

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Reply 24 of 45, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Jorpho wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

That's much different than, say, Ultima Underworld. Even with the likes of Skyrim out there, Ultima Underworld doesn't feel boring and repetitive. And despite its primitive graphics, I still enjoy re-playing it again after almost twenty years. I do not play Ultima Underworld - and many old games, for that matter - for nostalgic reason alone; I play it because of its great storyline and interesting gameplay.

...Do you have something against UU2, or do you play them both? (How about Arx Fatalis?)

Huh? Something against UU2? Not at all, why? The reason I'm not playing UU2 now is because I want to finish UU1 first.

Back to the discussion again, UU2 may have exactly similar gameplay and graphic with UU1, but the content and storyline are different enough to make each game unique.

It's a different case with, say, Doom 1 and Doom 2, where the only difference is the levels and perhaps a new monster of two. I don't know about you guys, but to me, it is not enough to make each game a unique experience.

I also see another problem with MasterM's choice of design (old school FPS, that is); it is the fact that modern FPS games don't only have better graphics, but also better gameplay than their predecessor. Half-Life has seamless in-game cinematics, Medal of Honor has Omaha Beach re-enactment (Saving Private Ryan, anyone?), Return to Castle Wolfenstein has interesting storyline, Battlefield series enables you to drive vehicles, etcetera.

I think it is also the case with Command Conquer-style RTS (For that matter, Fragile Allegiance and Alien Legacy are also RTS, but not that kind of RTS). After enjoying Emperor: Battle of Dune so thoroughly, suddenly the first Command & Conquer is not so enjoyable anymore.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

System Shock is the #1 requested Game on GOG.com. Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman has a point.

It is still the best "FPS" I've ever played as well. 😀

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Maybe focus on games that simply don't exist anymore. Like Legend Entertainment's Gateway. Now if one made a similar game to this one it would be an instant purchase from me 😀

Yup. I believe the main reason people are sticking with old games is because people don't make such games anymore today.

Take a look at LucasArt's Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe and Their Finest Hour. Sure, the "flight model" is arcadish, but they both have enjoyable strategic elements where you decide which target to strike for the next mission, and where your success in the mission (and your choice of target) affect the outcome of the campaign.

Today's flightsims may have meticulously detailed flight model, but where is the strategic gameplay like that in the Secret Weapons of Luftwaffe? Also, the primary reason I started to get involved in vintage hardware community on first place is because I want to build a Voodoo-based system for DID's Total Air War. They don't make games like TAW anymore these days.

And how about Microprose games? In Sword of the Samurai, you're not only fighting just for the sake of fighting; you're fighting as a part of the greater goal of becoming a shogun. You also pick your own fight; is it worth it if I challenge this particular Daimyo for a duel? Is it worth it if I rescue the farmer's daughter from bandits, or should I spend my time for something better?

If Firaxis re-make Sword of Samurai with better graphic and exactly the same gameplay, I would pick it without hesitation.

So you see, I believe the reason people stick with old games it not for nostalgia's sake alone; it is because there are kinds of gameplay that just don't exist anymore today.

Reply 25 of 45, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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MasterM wrote:

I'd like to have 100% creative freedom when it comes to code and not be constrained by idTech assumptions about gameplay etc.

Er, wait: you don't want to be constrained by id software's assumption about gameplay?

Actually, what you propose is exactly id software's assumption about gameplay; a pure action shooter without any storyline whatsoever, where you collect health and power-ups from one level to the next, etc.

MasterM wrote:

Also I have far more experience in generic game programming using OpenGL than writing Quake mods.

Wait, if you are experienced with OpenGL, why not making classic remakes instead? I think a graphical facelift of Ultima Underworld or OpenGL version of System Shock would be more welcomed than another Doom clone. 😀

(yup, there is already an Ultima Underworld remake, but it is never finished 🙁 )

Reply 26 of 45, by Jorpho

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Huh? Something against UU2? Not at all, why?

It's just that you mentioned UU1 twice, so I was wondering. (I recall reading reviews back in the day stating that UU1 was superior in some minor respects.)

Reply 27 of 45, by Mau1wurf1977

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That YouTube guy who does the "WTF is..." reviews, ages ago, reviewed a FPS and it was basically a modern version of Doom with SciFi elements. Sorry but I can't remember the game 😒

Lots of weapons, picking in up goodies and shooting stuff. So the more I listen to the argument I think it's true. Why run and gun in old school graphics when you there are heaps of current games out there that offer this experience.

Serious Sam is a perfect example. Once you play the HD version there is simply NO way you will go back play the original.

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Reply 28 of 45, by MasterM

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Jorpho wrote:

I am genuinely curious as to what sort of assumptions you think are immutably inherent to the engine.

2D top-down (non FPP) levels? Custom full-screen shaders for various post-processing? A different (simplified) model of networking for 2 player co-op? Playing MOD/XM files as music? I'm no expert in Quake engine but at least some of those would probabbly be quite hard to achieve. 😀 And I'm far more knowledgeable in generic OpenGL game programming than in Quake engine internals. Also - own engine is more fun to do! 😀

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman: Thank you for your insightful response. I understand your point and I think it's absolutely valid! Well... some like apples, some oranges. 😀 For example I'm the total opposite of you. I find modern cinematic FPS games dull and boring. I love action, zero cut-scenes, plot in text format at the beginning of every level and non-realistic arcade gameplay. Some guys at GOG.com seem to be quite enthusiastic about this idea so I hope there is more people sharing my views! But at the same time I agree with you - this game will most probably never reach any form of mainstream popularity. But that's ok with me. I'm doing this for fun anyway. 😀

Reply 29 of 45, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Jorpho wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

Huh? Something against UU2? Not at all, why?

It's just that you mentioned UU1 twice, so I was wondering. (I recall reading reviews back in the day stating that UU1 was superior in some minor respects.)

Well, learning the lizardmen's language is something you don't have in UU2, but that doesn't make UU2 inferior IMO. 😀

Ah, I still remember how exciting it was to learn the lizardmen's language. It is a good thing I've already forgotten so much about it, so I got the enjoyment of learning it again yesterday night.

What I really regret is that I still remember so much about Star Control 2, down to the details, so it detracts the enjoyment of replaying the game again. Too bad, because playing super melee with my Griffin Powermate is quite a blast. Joystick on the right, Powermate on the left. 😀

Reply 30 of 45, by MasterM

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

So you see, I believe the reason people stick with old games it not for nostalgia's sake alone; it is because there are kinds of gameplay that just don't exist anymore today.

THIS, EXACTLY THIS! One of my main reasons to start this project to be honest. 😀

Reply 31 of 45, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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MasterM wrote:

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman: Thank you for your insightful response. I understand your point and I think it's absolutely valid! Well... some like apples, some oranges. 😀 For example I'm the total opposite of you. I find modern cinematic FPS games dull and boring. I love action, zero cut-scenes, plot in text format at the beginning of every level and non-realistic arcade gameplay.

Well in that case, please make the monsters smart then, and make the gameplay vary enough to avoid repetitiveness.

Cinematic is good, but it doesn't necessarily make better gameplay. This is what I think would make better gameplay:

(1) in Doom, all you have to do is running around from level to level, collecting powerups and health, and shooting things.

(2) In Call of Duty, you man a machine gun post, working together with your squad (although the AI is not smart enough), defend a bunker from tanks, as well as manning AA gun to defend your squad against Stukas.

Both are mindless shooting, but the latter has more variation.

MasterM wrote:

Some guys at GOG.com seem to be quite enthusiastic about this idea so I hope there is more people sharing my views! But at the same time I agree with you - this game will most probably never reach any form of mainstream popularity. But that's ok with me. I'm doing this for fun anyway. 😀

Of course. Like I said, please go on. It may provide useful for your experience and programming knowledge, and you may actually have fun doing it. 😀

I merely answer your question in the OP.

Last edited by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman on 2012-10-05, 16:34. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 32 of 45, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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MasterM wrote:
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

So you see, I believe the reason people stick with old games it not for nostalgia's sake alone; it is because there are kinds of gameplay that just don't exist anymore today.

THIS, EXACTLY THIS! One of my main reasons to start this project to be honest. 😀

Um, that also depends on what kind of gameplay. M.U.L.E has very different (and better) gameplay than Space Invaders.

Reply 33 of 45, by Mau1wurf1977

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Found it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZeHWH_9sUg&feature=plcp

Modern doom like gun and run game

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Reply 34 of 45, by Gemini000

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Yikes, a lot of comments happened between now and my last post... mostly digression. I blame the number 14 and the letter A. :D

Back on topic: MasterM, in regards to that list of "features" you decided on, there's two that you really, really, REALLY should reconsider:

1. Stick with 2 1/2 D maps, like Doom and Duke Nukem 3D had. The reason being they're a heck of a lot faster and easier to make and will hold the retro feel better.

2. Using 2D sprites for things is fine but you absolutely don't want to limit the main game display to a low resolution and textures to 256 colours. Instead, limit the texture resolution to low res, like 64x64 or 128x128, and allow the screen resolution to be as high as the player wants. Trust me, this looks an infinite amount better and will still retain the retro look and feel! Plus, there's no reason at all to limit textures to 256 colours because no one will notice. :P

Also, a couple additional suggestions that aren't as critical:

3. Don't put in overhead 2D outdoor areas. Yes, it adds variety, but it will also break the flow of the gameplay as well as reduce the immersion factor.

4. While non-linear levels are fine, don't connect individual levels to each other in a non-linear pattern, as this can be confusing to the player.

Back off-topic, it could be a long time until we see System Shock on GOG based on what I've learned about the state of its copyrights and trademarks. This is a part of the reason why we got BioShock instead of a third System Shock game. :/

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Reply 35 of 45, by leileilol

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Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Modern doom like gun and run game

It's hardly Doom-like at all. It plays like a typical 2005 PS2 shooter. The "oldschool" part of the marketing is entirely misleading. Also it's just robots. This must be what it would be like if One Must Fall Battlegrounds were a FPS.

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Reply 36 of 45, by VileR

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leileilol wrote:

It's hardly Doom-like at all.

Admittedly I didn't watch the full thing, but I was going to say just that... there's some fast paced swarm combat and it has the "health and armor" thing going, but everything else still looks like a fairly modern shooter, with objective-driven missions and fairly linear maps. Not very much like Doom or Duke3d with their exploration-based level design, simple "secrets" convention, over-the-top powerups / enemies / environments, switch-puzzles, and so on (also, seeing "achievement unlocked" can pretty much guarantee that the game in question is not oldschool).

I highly doubt that games like this one automatically make Doom, Duke or Quake obsolete just because they have better graphics. Even if the gameplay was exactly the same, there are factors like style, atmosphere, experience and everything else that makes up a game's "personality" - these will always differ from game to game, and newer technology cannot automatically make them "better".

Even outdated graphical styles can work in a game's favor rather than the other way around: no need for hyper-realistic, drab and grey environments all the time (grey is the new brown I guess) - low-tech and low-detail can sometimes mean more suspension of disbelief, and more space for being creative.

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Reply 37 of 45, by leileilol

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Back in 2009-2010 I wanted to code up something similar to Duke3D (inventory, trap weapons) using the Darkplaces engine taking inspiration from the DNF 2001 trailer for some things

i got as far as having a crappy looking M16 and Desert Eagle mesh firing with similar gunsmoke, and a crappy drivable boat on water in a box map! No interest was had for its development unfortunately. People wanted more "arena" games.

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Reply 38 of 45, by mr_bigmouth_502

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I actually had a similar idea to the OP's a while ago, though what I was aiming for was to make a competent Unreal Tournament/Quake 3 clone with a simplistic artstyle (reminiscent of Black Shades http://www.wolfire.com/black-shades ) that would run well on period hardware, along with integrating a few extra features, such as semi-customizable weapons loadouts, alterable physics, some game modes that aren't standard deathmatch/CTF, and the ability to add extra eye candy if you have a newer machine (similar to what some DooM sourceports offer).

Naturally, this idea didn't go anywhere. 🤣 If I can ever get around to assembling a decent dev team however, then I might pull it off... someday. 😜

Reply 39 of 45, by Mau1wurf1977

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Yesterday I saw a video of a Doom 3 mod of the Original Doom. Got to say, after seeing this it doesn't really make me want to play the original version anymore...

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