If you really want to go without disabling caches (which makes no sense) you will need:

386 for Wing Commander and similar games, a 486DX2 66 for Strike Commander and similar games and a Pentium for Wing Commander 3 and similar game.

OR

You build one machine with a Pentium MMX and play around with the caches 😀

I get what your saying by not wanting to use slowdown utilities or disabling caches. I'm like that myself. sure it saves a ton of space and effort to just go the SS7 route and play around with cache disabling but i dunno. if you have the space, funds and time its really fun just building ridiculously era and game specific setups that "just work" (usually....)

I'd built a nice 486 66mhz. if I only had 1 older DOS machine that's probably what I would want. of the games you listed the only one Ive played was F-117A Stealth Fighter Nighthawk but that was over a decade ago. me and my friend at the time had a lot of fun with that one. I recently found a copy complete at the thrift but unfortunately its missing the disks 🙁 so I just have a nostalgic box.

if you want to play the original wing commander at the right speed though you'll need a 386. I use a 25mhz 386 for that one. I don't know if any of those other games will run to slow on that setup though.

Hudson187 wrote:

All, […]
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All,

I have a few different systems built for vintage gaming, however nothing that is 386/486/Pentium 1. I have a P3 for Win9x/late DOS titles, but I've recently found myself curious with some early to mid 90's games such as:

F-117A Stealth Fighter Nighthawk
Strike Fighter
Mechwarrior 2 (should be fine on P3 system)
Wing Commander 1-4
Gunship
Gunship 2000
M1 Tank Platoon
F-19
F-14 Fleet Defender
Longbow (this should be fine on my P3 system)

What do you guys think I should build? I have TONS of parts so I could build pretty much anything 486/Socket 1/Slot 1 based. My main concern is making sure some of these games don't run too fast; I'd prefer not to use slowdown utilities or disabling cache -- as pure as possible! 😀

It's kinda hard, especially the Wing Commander part. A system that runs Wing Commander III and IV properly will be too fast for Wing Commander 1. Also, a system that runs Strike Fighters: Project 1 will be too fast for M1 Tank Platoon or F-19. There are also systems that would be too fast for some games, while too slow for some others. A Pentium 100, for example, is too slow to run Jane's Longbow, yet too fast for Wing Commander 1.

The only games that need dedicated DOS system, IMO, is Longbow, Mechwarrior 2, Wing Commander 3, and Wing Commander 4. The rest of them you can play nicely with DOSBOX. "90s era gaming" is a pretty much broad generalization. DOS games from 1997 require vastly different machine than DOS games from 1992. DOS games from 1990 can run pretty good on a 286, while DOS games from 1992 usually need 386 or above, EMS, and the likes.

When building a DOS system, I usually focus on a very specific type of games: 3D, non-accelerated SVGA games that typically needs quite powerful CPU to run smoothly; games like Jane's Advanced Tactical Fighters, Novalogic's F-22 Lightning II, Top Gun: Fire At Will, and Dawn Patrol. Naturally, such system is too fast for Wing Commander 1 or Gunship (Gunship, not the latter Gunship!). Fortunately, such games run pretty nice in DOSBOX.

Thanks for all the replies!

I'm confident that WC 3-4 and Longbow along with 'newer' games such as ATF and F-22 will run on my P3 system NP in DOS 7.x, so I suppose we can count those out for this build. I would even consider swapping out my P3 1ghz for a P2 CPU, any speed. Actually, that system consists of:

P3 1Ghz in a MSI Slotkey adapter
Asus P2B
256 PC133 SDRAM
Monster MX300 (W9x only)
CL ISA SB16 w/Real QPL3 (in W9x and DOS)
Slot DVD Drive
3.5 floppy
2x STB 8MB Voodoo 2 in SLI
GF Ti4600
3Com 10/100 NIC
USB ZIP 100

Also have a Roland SC-55 mkII, MT-32 and a Yamaha MU-80 connected this this box as well.

I'm suppose I'm more focused on some DOS games that may be speed sensitive. I'd really like to stay away from DOSbox as well; I know its convenient, but to me, nothing beats real hardware. And since I already have lots of parts at my disposal, I'd really like to build a system to accommodate. I have a partial built 486/66 which, by turning off the 'turbo' button, will run WC1 wonderfully. However, this particular system is lacking in some key features, therefore I'm deciding to build a better system.

I definitely want to play F-117A along with the rest of the Microprose sims from that era; I missed out on most of those during my childhood. Watching this video on Youtube was enough to grab me 😀 . I fondly remember playing M1 Abrams on the Sega Genesis and having a blast, so I found the DOS copy to play at some point as well.

Mech 2 is another concern; I was able to get the Pentium version running on my P3 box without issues, however I really wanted to mess around with the 3DFX version; I did follow the guide to get it working on my V2 system (bat file and V1 drivers) but every time the engine initializes, I get a black screen with sound. If I was able to get that working, we could knock that off the list as well. All the Id games along with any build engine game work fine on my P3 box too, so I've got those covered.

Hudson187 wrote:

I'm suppose I'm more focused on some DOS games that may be speed sensitive. I'd really like to stay away from DOSbox as well;

Well then you may need to build different systems for each "spectrum" of games, unless you're focusing on Microprose games.

Hudson187 wrote:

I have a partial built 486/66 which, by turning off the 'turbo' button, will run WC1 wonderfully.

But 486 is barely minimum system requirement for Wing Commander 4, as well as Pacific Strike, Strike Commander, and some other games.

A Pentium 100, on the other hand, will play those titles smoothly. But of course it is way too fast for Wing Commander 1.

Things being said, if you're focusing on Microprose games, you won't have much problem IMO. Based on my experience, F-117A, which is a 386 game, still runs manageably on a Pentium 100, as so does Gunship 2000. It seems Microprose games are not as speed-sensitive as Origin games.

Hmm... I think I may be considering a P166 socket 7 based system...

Why a P166? Anything that will run on that will run on the PIII. I thought you were building something for he old speed sensitive stuff? Sounds like you need a slow 486 or a fast 386 to me - what key features is your 486 lacking?

To me nothing beats a Super Socket 7 with a K6 plus CPU. From my experience i can say it's the most balanced system i've built so far, can be very fast and very slow. Very useful.

An pentium 166Mhz mmx is way to fast to use in Dos games.. You better then go for a regular pentium 75 processor.. Its more then enough to run dos games on it.

carlostex wrote:

To me nothing beats a Super Socket 7 with a K6 plus CPU. From my experience i can say it's the most balanced system i've built so far, can be very fast and very slow. Very useful.

Agreed 😀

Thanks all for the replies!

I apologize, I meant a P1, 66mhz. Obviously, I screwed that up since P1 didn't come in a 66mhz... 🤣.

I do want to build a system for older games, this is true. I also have a K6 300mhz laying around which I suppose I could use, however I'm stuck as to whether or not I want to build a 486 (either 66 or 100), a faster 386 or a P1/K6 system.

I tried loading up F117A Nighthawk on my P3 system under DOS 7 last night and it froze during on the installation screen. I was able to install Gunship 2000 though and it seems to work just fine. Honestly, I'm kinda leaning toward a 486 based system. Badmojo, my partial built 486 system now is a Acer based board and case, both of which I'm not very fond of. I suppose I should look into it more along with other socket 3 boards I have and see what is the best fit. I do plan on putting a SB and GUS in the built as well, either a SB16 or a SBP2.0. I have two GUS classics, one of which I wanted to put into my p3 system as well.

I'm a little torn right now. I know what I want to play but am lost as to what is the best system to build. As it is right now, I have 3 systems: A P3 Win98SE box, a Core2Duo for XP 32bit stuff and my main box with a i7. I was planning on building a AthlonXP box with Win98 on it (for fassstttt W9X gaming) and another system for purely 'older' DOS games (nothing really pre 91'). I've never owned a P1 system, so that is a little tempting to build too. Also, I may drop down my P3 to a P2 based CPU -- isn't there a bug with some games that don't like <500mhz?

Lastly, does anyone know anything about Mechwarrior 2 3DFX on V2 sli? I'd really like to get this bug figured out where I get a black screen when the engine initializes...

Hudson187 wrote:

I apologize, I meant a P1, 66mhz. Obviously, I screwed that up since P1 didn't come in a 66mhz... 🤣.

Pentium did come as 66mhz, with Socket 4 systems. I own one of these myself and I'm quite happy with it.

Hudson187 wrote:

Lastly, does anyone know anything about Mechwarrior 2 3DFX on V2 sli? I'd really like to get this bug figured out where I get a black screen when the engine initializes...

Is this with the Fastvoodoo drivers and non-matched cards in SLI?

vetz wrote:

Pentium did come as 66mhz, with Socket 4 systems. I own one of these myself and I'm quite happy with it. […]
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Hudson187 wrote:

I apologize, I meant a P1, 66mhz. Obviously, I screwed that up since P1 didn't come in a 66mhz... 🤣.

Pentium did come as 66mhz, with Socket 4 systems. I own one of these myself and I'm quite happy with it.

Hudson187 wrote:

Lastly, does anyone know anything about Mechwarrior 2 3DFX on V2 sli? I'd really like to get this bug figured out where I get a black screen when the engine initializes...

Is this with the Fastvoodoo drivers and non-matched cards in SLI?

P1 did come in 66?? No kidding!

I am using the Fast Voodoo drivers, however my cards are a matched pair. I've also tried running with SLI disabled and the reference 3DFX driver set.

Still not sure what the fear of disabling caches is. One reason the 486 is faster because it has L1 cache.

Here are some videos on the topic which you might find interesting:

One PC does it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzxnB2CD6aw

Building the ultimate time-machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0WtduA2XI

Mobile K6 performance investigation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rPhi9-ILHw

A P3 is wayyyy to fast.

Mau1wurf1977 wrote:

Still not sure what the fear of disabling caches is. One reason the 486 is faster because it has L1 cache. […]
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Still not sure what the fear of disabling caches is. One reason the 486 is faster because it has L1 cache.

Here are some videos on the topic which you might find interesting:

One PC does it all: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzxnB2CD6aw

Building the ultimate time-machine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ur0WtduA2XI

Mobile K6 performance investigation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rPhi9-ILHw

A P3 is wayyyy to fast.

Mau1wurf977 -- you may have convinced me yet again! If I were to build a S7 system, it would 1) give me the option to put in a V1 card 2) allow me to run games from older DOS to 'newer', late DOS/W95 games 3) Allow me to play Mech2 with a actual V1 card.

What would your recommend for a S7 build? What CPU is your choice? I saw one of your vids that has a boot menu for different memory types; have anything like that for software disabling of caches?

Yes there is software to disable L1 cache. But L2 cache has to be set in the BIOS.

A pentium 133 is a good start. With all caches disabled it behaves like a 386DX 25 MHz. Turn L2 on and it behaves like a 486DX. Turn on both caches and it will handle Doom, Descent and many other games.

The FSB and speed of your RAM does influence performance a little so I would just test a board you have, try a few games and see if you are happy.

If you want to use the mobile K6 CPU then it is all about finding a board that supports it.

In general you can go with AT Socket 7 boards to build an authentic looking old machine or ATX Super Socket 7 boards which will give you the convenience of using ATX cases, ATX PSUs...

Sounds good -- I went ahead and procured a 133 P1 -- turns out the slowest I had was a 166 mmx. Going to do this build on Thursday.... can't wait!

Hudson187 wrote:

I am using the Fast Voodoo drivers, however my cards are a matched pair. I've also tried running with SLI disabled and the reference 3DFX driver set.

The Fastvoodoo drivers do not work. Try this method:

1. Install this driver from 3DFX (3.03): http://bit.ly/RM62kJ
2. Copy Glide.dll and ss1init.dll from the driver to the game installation directory.
3. Make a .bat file using notepad with the following: Re: MechWarrior 2 | 3D card conversion files

vetz wrote:

The Fastvoodoo drivers do not work. Try this method: […]
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Hudson187 wrote:

I am using the Fast Voodoo drivers, however my cards are a matched pair. I've also tried running with SLI disabled and the reference 3DFX driver set.

The Fastvoodoo drivers do not work. Try this method:

1. Install this driver from 3DFX (3.03): http://bit.ly/RM62kJ
2. Copy Glide.dll and ss1init.dll from the driver to the game installation directory.
3. Make a .bat file using notepad with the following: Re: MechWarrior 2 | 3D card conversion files

Does not work -- I still get a black screen upon engine initialization. 🙁