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First post, by snorg

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What age would you allow your kids unfettered/unsupervised access to the internet?

I had dial-up access from maybe 14 on, but was limited to BBSs and didn't have access to the wider internet until 18 or so (when I went off to college). I think I first stumbled across Goatse when I was 20, and while I've heard of "lemon party", "blue waffles" and the infamous "2 girls 1 cup" I have absolutely no desire to see something I cannot unsee. Goatse was enough, thanks.

I don't currently have kids but if and when I have them I don't want to wrap them in bubble wrap. Depending on how mature they are, I think unsupervised access would be appropriate about the time they could get into an R rated film on their own. Maybe that is too late, maybe driving age would be better. But seeing some of the things that end up on the internet, I really would like to limit their exposure to the nastier side of the net. It goes without saying that I see no reason to give them a webcam with all the creepers that install RATs on people's systems. But I think if you're old enough to drive, have a job or get shot at you're old enough to handle stumbling across Mr. Goatse.

Regardless of what my households rules are, I realize there is going to be that one neighborhood kid who is being raised by wolves that has 2 terabytes of hardcore XXX porn and god knows what else, but I see no reason to allow a child to have a conduit to that. Maybe I'm being paranoid, I don't know. I do think there is a dark side to the technology we enjoy, though.

Last edited by snorg on 2014-02-10, 04:29. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 1 of 24, by luckybob

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The internet has changed a LOT since I was a fresh faced youth. I was the kid raised by wolves. I always had unlimited access to porn. I also had parents that would sit me down, explain things to me like an adult. If I wanted a playboy, they would get it for me.

that said, with cameras are what I would be concerned about.

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Reply 3 of 24, by snorg

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luckybob wrote:

The internet has changed a LOT since I was a fresh faced youth. I was the kid raised by wolves. I always had unlimited access to porn. I also had parents that would sit me down, explain things to me like an adult. If I wanted a playboy, they would get it for me.

that said, with cameras are what I would be concerned about.

Well, Playboy is pretty tame, but I don't want to have to explain group sex to a 12 year old. I honestly wouldn't care if I stumbled across a smuggled Playboy or two, but it isn't like it was 25-30 years ago when that or maybe a Penthouse was the hardest thing you'd see, unless your dad had a porn collection (mine didn't, or if he did he was all Batman about it and it was craftily hidden). Generally that was all you had access to, a skin mag or two and catching unscrambled Cinemax or something.

And yes on the no cams, that is just asking for trouble.

I'd probably let them have a personal computer, assuming they were of an age where it made sense, but no internet access. Although I don't know how you'd manage that unless you glued all the USB and network ports closed. I would want to keep the PC with internet somewhere I could monitor what they were doing, like the family room or something.

Reply 5 of 24, by sliderider

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No unsupervised access until they turn 18. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone spamming me or anyone I know with naked selfies of any kid of mine because they trusted the wrong people online.

Reply 6 of 24, by Skyscraper

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I bought my first modem in the early 90s when I was 12 or 13.

Altought the porn is of better quality today I dare to say that there were more really nasty stuff on BBSes and early Internet porn sites back in the mid to late 90s.
The Internet as a whole is more polished today. Back then you did never really know what to expect when clicking a link.

I would not restrict Internet access at all as soon as the kids start school. They will see it all anyhow.

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Reply 8 of 24, by RacoonRider

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I would restrict internet access until the age of 16. By that time I'd assume my child has a head of his own.

I might be the only one here to say this, and this might be the first time I confess at all. I first saw porn at the age of 8. It had a huge impact on my life, so huge I still remember all the people's faces. The VHS tape included random group scenes. I felt dirty, I felt guilty, and I wish I could relive the moment when I found it and never take it in the first place.

The thing is, as children, we believe in stuff easily. If you ask me now, at the age of 22, what porn is, I'll say "It's a series of video scenes specifically designed to stimulate special zones of human brain and a huge industry formed around it". But 8-year old me would say "It's what people do when they love each other". No wonder 8-year old me found mankind disgusting.

Reply 9 of 24, by Skyscraper

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RacoonRider wrote:

I would restrict internet access until the age of 16. By that time I'd assume my child has a head of his own.

I might be the only one here to say this, and this might be the first time I confess at all. I first saw porn at the age of 8. It had a huge impact on my life, so huge I still remember all the people's faces. The VHS tape included random group scenes. I felt dirty, I felt guilty, and I wish I could relive the moment when I found it and never take it in the first place.

The thing is, as children, we believe in stuff easily. If you ask me now, at the age of 22, what porn is, I'll say "It's a series of video scenes specifically designed to stimulate special zones of human brain and a huge industry formed around it". But 8-year old me would say "It's what people do when they love each other". No wonder 8-year old me found mankind disgusting.

The thing is that most children will find porn around that age if they are not home schooled.
Even more so today than when we were kids.
I dont really see that it is possible to shield them from it.

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Reply 10 of 24, by luckybob

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That was my parents point. They would rather us have correct information too early, than 2nd hand or wrong information. End result? During the ages of 9 to around 14, I was the one to goto about sex. I got in trouble often when I would shatter some kids illusion about "the stork" or Jesus.

It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes.

Reply 11 of 24, by Dominus

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If you are too strict you will only manage to get exactly the opposite result.
And mind that even RIGHT NOW kids are sharing porn at school via non-smartphone mobiles, not to mention that at a certain age you can't limit them to a smartphone without internet access. Sooo, all your restrictions will fail. When you consider that you don't already have kids then imagine that the whole smartphone/other internet capable devices scene will look like in a few years...

AND when I think of my youth, there was no internet, I got porn via other friends and VCR tapes.

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Reply 12 of 24, by F2bnp

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Yeah I have to agree with luckybob and Dominus. Restricting will will probably get you nowhere. I was online since 7-8 years old and the only supervision I got was advice from my dad. Pretty much the same advice that I got everyday, not to open up to complete strangers and not to visit too weird places. No one ever checked my browser history AFAIK and I'm glad that my parents treated me like that.

I'm guessing there's concern not just about porn but also downright nasty stuff like 2 girls 1 cup and 3 guys 1 hammer and the fact that you can easily witness assassination and execution videos online. This is quite easy nowadays. You could block some such sites through the router interface. However, I believe that once a child has reached a certain age, say 13 years old, it may be beneficial to see such stuff. I know I did see some nasty stuff as a kid, like the execution of Saddam Hussein, and this I believe has made me a better human being. It was shocking, but it introduced me to the harsh side of the world.

Reply 13 of 24, by snorg

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F2bnp wrote:

Yeah I have to agree with luckybob and Dominus. Restricting will will probably get you nowhere. I was online since 7-8 years old and the only supervision I got was advice from my dad. Pretty much the same advice that I got everyday, not to open up to complete strangers and not to visit too weird places. No one ever checked my browser history AFAIK and I'm glad that my parents treated me like that.

I'm guessing there's concern not just about porn but also downright nasty stuff like 2 girls 1 cup and 3 guys 1 hammer and the fact that you can easily witness assassination and execution videos online. This is quite easy nowadays. You could block some such sites through the router interface. However, I believe that once a child has reached a certain age, say 13 years old, it may be beneficial to see such stuff. I know I did see some nasty stuff as a kid, like the execution of Saddam Hussein, and this I believe has made me a better human being. It was shocking, but it introduced me to the harsh side of the world.

Man I don't want to ask about what "1 hammer" is but I think I can imagine.
Anyway, I guess I have to ultimately throw in my lot with F2bnp, Dominus and Luckybob, too protective and you run the risk of having a "preacher's daughter". I am am going to try and preserve their innocence as much as possible until they hit 13, but after that there isn't much that can be done. I sure as hell am not going to go the other route and provide them complete unfettered access from an early age.

And I agree with Racoonrider as well, early porn viewing can be damaging. But with smartphones, etc (and who knows what 5 years from now...I hope to be married and have kids by then, if not I think I've reached my "use by" date).

I appreciate the answers from everyone.

Reply 14 of 24, by obobskivich

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I would say that it heavily depends on the child - they're people too, and they will develop differently and have different tolerances for what they can and cannot watch and still be able to separate fact from fiction. In other words, some kids even at 11-13 have a hard time watching "scary" movies like Jurassic Park or Daybreakers, but other kids at the same age have no problem with legitimate horror flicks like Event Horizon or Alien. Upbringing has a role on that, but it does also depend on the person (I know adults that can't actually make it through movies like Alien, it's just part of who they are). The ones that can separate fact from fiction are usually no worse off seeing something like Rotten.com than they are watching Doomsday. The easiest guideline for "when they're ready" in this respect is "can they watch it without nightmares?" - and some kids will probably never get to that point (again, example above). Those kids probably won't go looking out for shock images or other gnarly things though, and the best you can probably do for them is establish and open-door policy to talk about scary things they've seen (e.g. someone may send them a shock image to mess with them, or they might watch a scary movie at a party, etc - just because they know it scares them doesn't mean they have good judgment; they *are* tweens/teens after all).

Porn is in a similar vein - are they able to understand and process that it's make-believe? If they're able to say "this is made up" or "this is fiction" - it goes a lot longer ways to them being able to endure, ignore, shrug off, etc the various stuff they'll find online. And again, the more sensitive souls out there probably aren't going to be looking for skin mags, let alone hardcore stuff. Also, how they were raised and taught about sex is another big factor - is it a forbidden fruit that they're unallowed to discuss, ask about, etc and that gets passed over with innuendo and giggles when its brought up? Or is it seriously discussed as just yet another activity that consenting adults can partake in, and explained as something that much like driving a car or drinking alcohol should be treated with respect and a safety-minded attitude? That makes a BIG difference. I'm not trying to argue the whole "abstinence vs protection" debate that gets brought into schools far too often - what I am saying is, even if your family rule is "no sex outside of marriage" they should still know what sex is, what function it serves, etc - just like for example I'm guessing you probably have a rule along the lines of "no going potty outside of the bathroom" but they still know about bodily functions and what function they serve. Where I'm going here is: kids (especially teens) are very curious about things like sex, drugs, etc; if they can't get the information they want from trusted authorities (mom, dad, preacher, teacher, etc - remember most of the non-mom-and-dad types can't even discuss a lot of this stuff anymore, at least in the US) they'll go looking for it on their own. But you can't expect them to have the research acumen or the discrimination capabilities of a collegiate - so who knows what they'll find, what they'll learn, etc. And that's where you get them trying to learn about the facts of life from 4chan or Erowoid or whatever else. Putting in parental controls on your PC or router just creates a challenge for them - so now it's not just about "what's beer like?" but it comes "why is this knowledge forbidden? what are they trying to hide from me???" Better to head that off at the source and just answer the question than go down the path of playing warden and thought-police.

Bottom line is: "when they're ready" is a good answer. Trying to shield them away from the world and everything potentially unpleasant within it just doesn't work in my experience - the kids I grew up with that were sheltered and hidden away from the world and then suddenly just handed "you're a man now" at 16 or 18 usually are the ones that have the hardest time with alcohol, pornography, etc - just like the kids who were never taught about money management, saving, etc are the ones you see drowning in credit card debt in college. Don't send them out unprepared or ill-equipped and expect them to magically make the best choices ("For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh").

This discussion also reminds me of a comic I've seen, I don't think I have the image, but it goes something like:

"Saying I can't teach you about safe sex is like saying I can't teach you about seatbelts and airbags because they'll encourage you to have a car accident." Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it; or as the Scouts say: be prepared.

Of course - everything above is "in my experience" and/or "in my opinion" - your mileage and kids will vary, and at the end of the day you're the parent and have to make the best possible choice you can make with the information and tools you have available.

Another issue that I'm surprised hasn't come up: cyber-bullying. I'd say this is a much more prevalent and insidious problem than sexting or Internet pornography; teaching kids that they don't have to be a victim and can just "walk away" or "log off" is a hard-won trait, but very worth it in my view.

Reply 15 of 24, by snorg

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Well the bullying/cyber bullying whatever you want to call it is a problem, you
mentioned 4chan and I just don't understand the mentality of a group that would torment parents that lost
a child to suicide (the whole "an hero" meme). Yeah I know it's a group of people and not everyone
would engage in that type of activity, but there are a lot of miserable people out there
that want to drag everyone down (crab in a pot mentality). While I can understand it to
a certain degree, I certainly can't condone that kind of behavior. I went through my own
"angry at the world" phase and while I still have my darker days, I do my best not to
take it out on other people. I get the sense in a lot of cases it is just causing chaos for chaos sake,
along with mob mentality. Combine that with pseudo anonymity and you get people being shitbags.

I also don't know how you would protect yourself from this type of thing, other than
not maintaining an online presence at all. Every day I read about some new
security vulnerability, and while there is common sense and best practices, it seems
like that only gets you so far. If someone is gunning for you, they will find a way.

It seems you'd have to be a security expert, and most parents don't have the skills
for that. Yes, unplugging is an option but what about phones? I understand
those can be rooted as well and if that's your only communication tool, how
can you be sure it is ever clean if it was compromised? I bring this up because
I had a female friend that was being stalked by an ex, and ultimately she had to
toss the device and get a new number because he kept popping up.

Last edited by snorg on 2014-02-09, 19:38. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 16 of 24, by Dominus

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Obob: good, in depth answer

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