Consumer level? I would agree that VM stuff is fairly limited in usefulness.

Commercial level however... well, consider that major businesses tend to use their own custom-built software, and sometimes that software will run into glitches trying to be run on more modern operating systems, so virtual machines are necessary to keep that software running the way it's supposed to, as it would be far more expensive for the company to modify the existing software and then propagate it through their networks. Plus, they know their current software works, and if attempting to fix it to work on modern OSes causes even MORE issues, that's more money lost trying to get the system working again.

This is also part of the reason why the DOSBox authors state to only use DOSBox for games, even though for the most part DOSBox works fine with applications. I actually had an eMail and phone exchange with someone over a year ago who wanted to adapt DOSBox to run his business software. Even some of the fast food restaurants in the area still have text-mode displays for their order systems and many of the call centres out there still have UNIX terminal displays feeding people their lines.

Virtual Machine software is mostly intended for business and enterprise software, not consumer software, which is why they're not really tweaked to do the kinds of things you would need for gaming purposes and why stuff like DOSBox even exists. Not to say consumer software doesn't run in VM software, but as you pointed out, most of it works fine between operating systems and typically millions of dollars aren't riding on if the software is working 100% or not. :P

Gemini000 wrote:

Virtual Machine software is mostly intended for business and enterprise software, not consumer software, which is why they're not really tweaked to do the kinds of things you would need for gaming purposes and why stuff like DOSBox even exists. Not to say consumer software doesn't run in VM software, but as you pointed out, most of it works fine between operating systems and typically millions of dollars aren't riding on if the software is working 100% or not. 😜

Thanks for the explanation.

It seems like there would be a market for a VM that could run an old Windows environment well enough that older games would run on it.

"Frustrated by the fact that your old Windows games no longer work? Itching to play your favorite game again, but don't have a system that can run it? Virtual Games Machine to the rescue! Just install VGM, install a copy of Windows 95 or 98, install the included graphics and sound drivers and your old games will think they're running on an old system!"

I mean, look at all the work that's been put into DOSBox just to be able to play old DOS games. It's even being used commercially by companies like GOG. An emulator to run old Win9x games would probably be pretty popular.

There is the ReactOS project, which intends to replicate Windows NT tech...
http://www.reactos.org/
...but unfortunately it seems to have a long way to go before wide compatibility is addressed. I think their test suite hits ~60% compatibility now. It's not a virtualized solution by itself, but it will run under most of the current VM software.

The retro / vintage market is very small really and except a few most people in the market have little $ to spend (or do not want to spend it). I do not believe there is a viable market really.

It sucks that I have a pile of software that has problems or just doesn't work properly either because I need an older version of Windows, or because it doesn't like newer systems.

At the moment I don't have the space to keep old systems setup just to play older games. And what do you do when the old systems stop working?

Virtual machines exist for commercial software and business products. Win9x gaming is still best experienced with real hardware, especially for 3D accelerated graphics and sound.

Rekrul wrote:

And what do you do when the old systems stop working?

1.) Revive if possible (replace parts)
2.) Go to the spare parts warehouse, er, storage/closet and build one anew? 😉

The part I don't get is that productivity software is usually the least problematic to run under newer versions of Windows.

Virtualisation for productivity software is for creating a chain of accountability.

If a vendor specifically only supports their application on Windows XP, they can refuse to give you tech support if you run it on Windows 7 x64 and have problems.

Whereas, run VMWare on your Win7 desktop (supported by VMWare), run Windows XP in your VM (supported by VMWare), run your app in Windows XP (supported by vendor), and everything's hunky dory. You're not running your vendor software in an unsupported environment, for the purposes of getting support or liability when something screws up.

Because even though your app may appear to run "just fine" in newer versions of Windows, problems may occur under the surface that e.g. cause your calculations program to give wrong results. Wrong results that may not become apparent until it's too late. The exact kind of reason why DOSBox is not for running your non-gaming business applications.

As everyone else said, virtual machines are mostly for businesses to use for their older software, but in the gaming realm I found that they are perfect for old Windows FMV games that hate modern operating systems. On my end at least, it's the only way I can get Myst: Masterpiece Edition to work on my modern system at all.

I also use virtual machines for running certain DOS compilers where DOSBox can't really support due to the LFN requirement.

I've come across a rather large hospitality group in Sydney who's reservation system couldn't run on anything above Windows 2000
A Small manufacturing company who's router software (woodwork not network device) only ran in Win9x
Although the best one I know about is a work mate used to support some gambling company that had some custom built probability calculator that would only work in NT4
Not only would it cost a fortune to get someone to program it in something that ran on newer systems but the server had to sit out of the EU for "legal" reasons.
A restaurant system who only officially support Windows 2003, but we are dragging them kicking and screaming to run their software on 2008

That's in 10 years doing IT outsourcing for a number of companys. So the demand is low but out there. This is VMwares best selling point as the 2003 servers are installed ontop of VMware dispute only having 1 server running on each physical server as driver support for 2003 is becoming a major hassle these days.

I think it's just a matter of time until games become workable again.
The beggining of 2000 I couldn't run ms-dos games anylonger, after a while that got solved with dosbox.
Al lot of 3dfx games that were problematic can now be run with glidewrappers.
Other games are ressurerected or kept alive by fanpatches.
So I think one day there will be some compatibility program that lets you run most old windows games, or just make fan patches yourself. =P

I have to be honest...it was the pile of software I've never been able to throw away that led me to seek out the "retro" culture thing. Although it's not where I would love it to be...and I totally understand the niche challenges supporters face...I'm happy with what I've been able to get working so far. I'll love it even more when the particular holdouts (like my original Myst that won't behave), or any of the titles I had when I had a 3DFX Voodoo3 AGP card, have a solution.

I wish I was a brainy developer guy...