The way I see it, old games like Doom and Duke3D have reached the end of their commercial lives. The original devs have long moved on, and any money the copyright holders make at this point is a bonus and ultimately insignificant. (Computer Chronicles host Stewart Cheifet expressed a similar view in a recent interview.)

Even Luddites like me who absolutely MUST own everything on physical media don't help things, as most of the games I buy are used and long out of print. I'm not a fan of piracy myself, but there's a point at which keeping the game "alive," so to say, outweighs the importance of keeping its owners happy. Maybe this was Archive.org's reasoning.

There are more important things to worry about in life IMO.

There are reasons why I don't link to archive.org for legitimate software when I can't find any other place online that has something, and this is one of them. It's really not a good idea for me to link people to sites that make it easy to pirate software. Don't get me wrong though, these sites can be extremely helpful when I'm trying to get a particular game working in DOSBox and the copy protection gets in the way, but it's just too easy to abuse the power to download free stuff.

That said, I have noted that the scruples of people on the internet have been improving overall. There was a time when ALL of this stuff was illegit, but now there's legit alternatives like GOG and such and people do indeed use them.

Really, I just approach it the way I feel is appropriate and leave everyone else to flex their own morals and ethics regarding it. People who want to pay for legit software will pay for legit software, and people who want to pirate it will pirate it. There's little you can do to change that and I don't go around judging people on this point alone. (Besides, I've also noticed a lot of the people who pirate stuff only watch/use about 5% of the stuff they download, so really... what is even the point? :P )

I'll admit, I've discovered a lot of my favorite PC games through "abandonware" downloads, but whenever I have the option, I usually prefer getting games through services like GoG or Steam. Abandonware copies of old DOS games tend to have a fair number of problems, whether they be dodgy cracks that cause unintended bugs and compatibility problems, or missing music and cutscenes, in the case of CD rips.

It doesn't really bother me when people pirate games that are either out of print or have reached the "end" of their commercial lives, though it does kinda bother me when people pirate all of the games they play, including new releases, and not give a single penny to developers. They are the reason why we have bullshit like paid DLC, restrictive DRM, microtransactions, and free2play pay2win games. Ironically, a lot of people pirate games purely out of spite for these things, and I can't blame them, though these things wouldn't have become a problem in the first place if people just paid for their games.

I have made my point on my position when it comes to abandonware much to the dismay of the moderators. But any site which offers any program for free without permission is a warez site in my opinion. I, also, think that such sites that offer the manuals for the games are warez sites. Remember that manuals, quick reference cards, and maps are copyrighted materials. In my opinion this site by its policy shouldn't support warez sites whether its games or manuals. We shouldn't help people who downloaded those games or refer them to sites where they can get the manuals either. Thats why I support telling people who downloaded those games to get their help from the sites from where they downloaded it from. Any decent abandoware site has forums and those people who downloaded these games should use them I, also, support those sites like GOG to keep these old games alive legitimately. We seem to want to keep this topic open even when its says that this site supports no abandonware. We must be pretty bored to keep beating this dead horse.

I don't buy the blanket argument that any unauthorized use of software - however technically insignificant - is illegitimate.

By that logic, anyone using a pirated copy of Microsoft Windows 1.0 is stealing (Assuming MS still considers it commercial).

If an old piece of software is still being maintained by its developer, then I wholeheartedly agree that that piece of software should be paid for.

Also, equating the illegal use of commerical software produced by multinationals with that of software produced by small companies is illogical. Multinationals are subsidized by governments, so if you use a copy of Windows 7 without paying for it, the argument could be made that the software was paid for through taxes that were later transferred as subsidies to said company.

The issue of disposable income these days also comes to mind when considering piracy. America was a different place in the 80s and 90s, and people had the money to dish out for a boxed piece of software. Piracy was commonplace, but was done quite often for fun rather than out of necessity, as it is today.

Wow, this is quite a polarizing thread. Ok, Catcherguns i semi-agree. I agree that downloading copyrighted software is illegal, unless otherwise stated by the owner of the IP or the company. As for manuals I disagree, I think that if you own the game but need reference material, unless in the grey zone where the manual has the code, or the code wheel or the passcode then its eh...but I mean for reading purposes I download manuals of games I own. Also, mr_bigmouth_502 I am sorta in the same boat before I realised that "wow all these games, on the internet just for free? Abandonware is great!" Yeahhh...until I realised that was illegal. Yet it opened my eyes to awesome games that I have since bought. Also, LGR (Lazy Game Reviews), or Clint, opened my eyes to awesome retro DOS games. I have always had an affinity to retro gaming, I remember the first video I watched was his Doom review, then depth dwellers. 😁

Manuals is sort of the same boat... but a little less treacherous since, If you own a game, you should have access to its documentation, but then if you don't own a game... why would you even need the documentation in the first place?

Yeah, it's still a violation of copyright, but companies aren't typically going to pursue copyright claims against the manuals to consumer products for the simple fact that it would be extremely difficult to prove copying the manual damages the company's ability to profit from their products. Granted, it would be different if the company actively sold replacement manuals for high end software and someone else came along and tried to sell knockoffs for cheaper, but not every company did the whole replacement manual thing and extremely few companies do now.

Actually, on the DRM side of things, something I recently learned is that, all the companies introducing DRM into their software KNOW that it doesn't really stop people from pirating their software and just makes it more likely people will. The trouble is that in order to satisfy the lawyers and the shareholders, they have to at least look like they're doing something to fight piracy, regardless of how great or stupid the effort is. :P

The thing is many old DOS games can only be purchased second hand. They aren't on Steam or GOG.com and nobody sells them new. Doesn't give you a lot of options.

GOG.com seems to have slowed down with DOS based games and focusing on newer games. Quite a shame because there are still so many DOS games out there.

With big titles such as Sierra games, yes you can get the Steam or GOG.com version of popular games such as Space Quest but you can't get other games such as Black Cauldron for example. Also you don't always get the version you want. For example Space Quest 4 is the CD version. You legally cannot purchase the floppy version new.

Another argument is that often the pirated game is not only free, but the better product! E.g. GOG.com games often miss INSTALL.EXE to change sound cards. CD Audio tracks are ogg files. You don't get the installation image.

I look at what they are doing is more of a service, I mean personally I'm pretty sick of buying the white album aren't you? I mean I own tons of physical copies but I refuse to pay for digital copies of games (Unless they are indie titles or brand new games by new games I mean games that are less than 10 years old).
I agree that people who pirate everything are plain old thieves but where the heck am I going to get an old version of Autocad 3 or a good copy of Microsoft Office 97 without getting scalped on ebay? Seriously when it comes to out of print software it really shouldn't even be considered pirating.
Also as Phil said gog often screws up their "fixes" and horribly breaks the original games yet continue to sell them, one perfect example would be the Windows XP "fixed" version of Earth 2140 which is a super rare game to find a physical copy of anyhow but their version is so horribly broken that they have removed multiplayer AND the single player AI does absolutely nothing. So basically the opponents army is lead by a sea cucumber, it's horrible.

Also like mr bigmouth said, I too have discovered TONS of great games thanks to these websites like Abandonia that distribute these old games. Now this was mainly due to the fact that up until 2008 my main computer for doing everything was a Pentium 2 otherwise I would probably have been playing more modern games. Personally I think these sites are great and Legal or not they help keep interest in DOSbox and DOS gaming in general alive.

I say if your going to bitch about pirating old dos games get a life.

wow, so much hostility....has this community changed since I last left? I'm not "bitching" I ah simply stating that I, my own personal opinion, believes that pirating old software, or any software at that fact, is morally wrong.

As for office, maybe I am of the minority but I thought getting a hold of old copies of office was easy. I have copies of office 95, 97, 2000, 2003, 2007.

Uh actually the cheapest boxed copy of Office 97 on ebay atm is 20+ USD. 😒

Saying "It makes me sick" and "makes my blood boil" isn't really a good way to convey that you are completely aloof and simply stating your opinion. It seems more like you were looking for someone to back you up on your belief. Besides what is so morally wrong about pirating software that is out of print? Who exactly does it hurt? I mean WHY is it morally wrong?

Doom, I have been on a doom binge lately and ID/Bethesda/Softworks still makes money off it. So to see people go "doom/doom2/wolfenstien is abandonware lulz winxp is old swag swag how do I boot dos on win7.." http://steamcommunity.com/app/2280/discussion … 39199321328880/

Well it certainly doesn't hurt ID. I mean think about it, I own a boxed copy of Ultimate Doom from 1996 I found it at the local goodwill for 2$. That 2$ didn't go to ID software right?

Now granted down the line someone did pay full retail for it, but I'm probably the second or third owner of this copy so by no means am I the original purchaser. That means at least one person (me) is enjoying a real copy of doom without paying ID Software or Bethesda or whoever.

Besides paying 5$ for a digital download of a game that came out in 1995 seems a tad ridiculous doesn't it? It's just a money making scheme where they get to cash in on the name. 😒

I mean I remember getting the Doom compilation for Xmas once sometime in the 2000's and it probably cost like 15$ but you actually got a cardboard box and a manual and an actual fold out booklet for REAL CD-ROM discs. (I don't have this anymore darn, my younger self didn't take care of things very well. 😜 )

Well yeah. I found doom, doom II ultimate doom and master levels all for 50c at a thrift shop. Plus quake.

Both, Doom and Wolfenstein 3D, are available through Steam and GOG.com and are actually very good releases. Doom might be missing the program to change the sound card though, but I can't remember.

And id as a company is also still around.

Maybe I'm just living in the past too much. *sips Crystal Pepsi*