Isn't it the same as with other things though? Like with cars or guitars for example... Stuff from a certain era is sought-after, because it is unique, different, historically relevant etc.

In my view, PCs from the 478/775 era are just the same as the ones we use today, just a bit slower. I don't think they will become sought-after unless modern PCs will change significantly.

Pentiums and earlier are interesting because they come from the era of DOS and early software-rendered Windows games. And possibly 3DFX and such early 3D accelerators, because they are different from today's standard OpenGL/D3D stuff, and therefore historically significant (not to mention that some DOS games only have 3d acceleration with specific hardware).

For me personally the 'era' of a certain system is interesting. I am mostly interested in retro-computing because of programming. I want to learn how specific early computers worked, what their limitations are, and how programmers can work around them.
This makes me interested in C64, Amiga, and early DOS PCs. Stuff I grew up with, before I could program at a decent level. I have met quite a few other people (mostly demosceners) who are interested in similar things.

Every generation has its "Retro period". I find playing with Windows 98 and Windows XP just as exciting as playing with DOS. I like working with old and new and really don't mind.

On the other hand there are periods that are past being retro so to speak like old computers that use hole punch cards, magnetic tapes and took up an entire room. Just as fascinating but what happened to that generation?

The time of PIII and P4 is fascinating. Performance exploding from year to year with resolutions climbing and games looking better and better. Far Cry, Doom 3, F.E.A.R., Chaos Theory, Bioshock. While I wasn't a kid anymore it was another special period in my life, first job, first time I could afford what I wanted so I'm also re-living this time through my hobby 😀

I think I mentioned in last year that you should start buying S478 gear as it will be the next big thing in retro world. And AMD gear as well although that's already gone up in price as there is always much less AMD gear in circulation due to small market size.

I'm already working on Windows XP projects and people look funny why I think this is retro 🤣

Directx versions and incompatibility crap is one reason to run older machines, for some of us it has become a greater reason for extra rigs than running DOS games on original hardware.

I dumped all my Mac stuff once apple moved to Intel, because I did not want to deal with a second stream [DOS/Windows PCs being the first] of multiple-hardware-platforms to cover Apple software. In a similar way, the desire to maintain glide/pvr/directx has meant I rarely have a DOS machine put together for long. Other priorities, can't do everything and don't want to.

I wonder if Windows 8 [...onwards] might be forming a rift between old and new Windows computing, much as OS X and iOS did for Macs. XP feels retro now but it was my main OS at home and work until the middle of last year.

I'll say it depends on the era the individual grew up in and the general usability.

Imagine someone who grew up in the mobile phone and broadband internet era and owns an i3/i5/i7 system. Dialling back ~10 years to own a computer in the S478 era is definitely going to feel retro. But compare that to someone who grew up in the era before Pentium came about. A P4 might not seem so retro anymore.

A part of S478/S775/S939 not feeling THAT old is due to their usability for general tasks. As long as something remains usable/relevant, their age can be ignored to a certain extent (even though they're >5 years old). But let's face it, look at how many own an i3/i5/i7 system as seen in the -Post your 'current' PC- thread 🤣 .

Zenn wrote:

Dialling back ~10 years to own a computer in the S478 era is definitely going to feel retro.

Well, I'm not sure about that... Especially if you just run Windows 7 on it or such. Then it'd just feel exactly the same as a new machine, only slower.
If you missed out on Windows XP, then perhaps running XP on such a box will be somewhat 'retro'... Then again, you probably can still run it on a modern machine as well (there's even XP-mode built into Windows 7).
Even so, XP is not all that different from a modern Windows.
You'd really have to go back to MS-DOS or such to get a totally different experience, and that real 'retro' feel of something from a bygone era. And an S478 machine is too new/too fast for MS-DOS (probably won't run most software correctly, and you won't have proper SB compatibility and such).
So to me, an S478 machine is still from the current era of computing, and there's no different 'experience' from using it. It's the same, just slower.

1: Vogons is a relatively small community. There are not that many active users really.
2: Vogons has a strong focus on Pentium II / III / 4 and Glide.
3: On other leading forums (Vintage-Computer.com, DOSFORUM.DE, Classic-Computing.org, AmiBay.com and so on) early 1980s to mid 1990s remains the emphasis.
4: Based on eBay sales / values most $ is still with early 1980s to mid 1990s.

IMO there is no need for an emphasis on > Pentium 1.

Scali wrote:

Well, I'm not sure about that... Especially if you just run Windows 7 on it or such. Then it'd just feel exactly the same as a n […]
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Zenn wrote:

Dialling back ~10 years to own a computer in the S478 era is definitely going to feel retro.

Well, I'm not sure about that... Especially if you just run Windows 7 on it or such. Then it'd just feel exactly the same as a new machine, only slower.
If you missed out on Windows XP, then perhaps running XP on such a box will be somewhat 'retro'... Then again, you probably can still run it on a modern machine as well (there's even XP-mode built into Windows 7).
Even so, XP is not all that different from a modern Windows.
You'd really have to go back to MS-DOS or such to get a totally different experience, and that real 'retro' feel of something from a bygone era. And an S478 machine is too new/too fast for MS-DOS (probably won't run most software correctly, and you won't have proper SB compatibility and such).
So to me, an S478 machine is still from the current era of computing, and there's no different 'experience' from using it. It's the same, just slower.

You've taken my words out of context... I meant that it differs from person to person and I was referring to one who hasn't experienced the pre-Pentium era (just my opinion, may not be true for all). Of course, the software part is up for debate as well but I'm not here to argue. Just sharing a view, like as the other posters.

I find VOGONS is a very friendly community and new users feel welcome. Maybe that's why there are more younger users who have an interest for Pentium II / III / Glide?

I know that in DOSForum there was a vote about adding Windows 9x threads to the site. That alone speaks volumes 😀

Vintage Computing Forum also doesn't allow / has no dedicated threads for anything more recent.

Younger people typically also have less $ to spend so it makes it less relevant from a market perspective. Young people are also more likely to ditch a hobby once they move into adolescence/adulthood.

DOSForum.de is also a relatively small community and so far they have not opened a 9*/XP category to my knowledge (http://www.dosforum.de/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8835&start=60).

Other communities are also very welcoming. So that is not the main reason. The main reason is probably that young people grew up with 9* more recently and not as much with DOS so their emotional attachment to > Pentium is stronger. < Pentium II is typically also harder from an availability perspective.

Personally, I tend to focus more on stuff like Pentium and Pentium II machines, since that's what I mainly grew up with, either in my own house or throughout middle school and early high school. 486 machines are also pretty interesting to me, since, technically, the first comp I ever laid hands on was my dad's 486 system. I don't have as much an interest in systems earlier than 486 or later than PII (unless it's something like a Tualatin or an Athlon XP). >PIII isn't really that "vintage" in my eyes.

i wouldn't consider Pentium 4 and up "retro" or collectable in any way. These platforms don't have much going for them, a modern Core i7 machine with 32-bit Windows XP installed can do just about anything a Pentium 4 can, only faster.

Calling 440BX (Pentium 2/3) collectable may still be frowned upon by some, but I consider this the best "in-between" platform. You'll have "modern" features like PS/2 ports, AGP, USB 1, LBA drive access etc, but still with perfect DOS compatibility, PnP ISA slots with DMA, and a huge range of processor speeds to choose from.

Anything up to socket 7 will forever have a special place in my heart 😀 After that, I never felt quite the same connection to any of my PCs.

jwt27 wrote:

but still with perfect DOS compatibility, PnP ISA slots with DMA

I disagree there.
Because the CPU is so fast, there's quite a bit of software that fails.
Not all ISA devices will work for that reason either, even in Windows.
I had trouble with a real Sound Blaster Pro 2.0 card in my Pentium II 350. An ESS clone works better, probably because it responds much quicker to DSP commands than the real SBs do. Most software just uses simple delay loops where they send a command to the DSP and then loop N times, reading the DSP status to see if an SB is there.
On a fast CPU, you have looped N times before the SB has responded, so it is not detected properly.

Likewise, there's a lot of software that crashes because things go too fast, and get divison-by-zero or other crazy things.
I think you shouldn't go higher than a 486 or early Pentium for the best DOS compatibility. Faster Pentiums would already start to have trouble with some software... but a PII... well, as I say, you can't even use real SB cards anymore, only clones. There's probably tons of other hardware that fails for similar reasons.

You could just slow down the CPU and/or disable cache to slow the system down.

Super Socket 7 is, in my opinion, the best "in-between" platform 😀

Pentium 4s using S478 (i875 or below) and ISA/ AGP slots are not very common, but they are very versatile. For example, disabling L1/L2 caches gets you a very fast 486, and ISA gets you SB compatibility. Further tweaking can get you 286/386 speeds with appropriate VGA cards. And at the other extreme, you can run DX9 games with an AGP 8x GPU, too.

Going back to the OP's original point [or question] - is it time to add new sub-forums for 'emerging retro' platforms - I'd say it's really not necessary. VOGONS goes with the flow for the most part and I find that threads on all manner of non-current machines sort themselves out smoothly in practice. There is always friendly jostling along the perimeter - just what constitutes 'retro' is an enduring and evolving theme on VOGONS. So my answer would be the forum structure is fine 😀

I agree, the forum structure is fine.

Lately I am having fun tinkering with XP era hardware I could not afford back when the stuff was new, now it can be found in dumpsters.
This stuff is not really retro yet but it will be, sooner than we know everything will be gadgets and "load more".

While Windows Vista v1.0, v1.1 and v1.2 can run most games with some tweaking and updating surprisingly many XP era games fail to run when installed from old discs.
I think Windows XP will have a bright future as retro gaming OS but it will take some more time until XP truly feels retro.

XP already feels retro for me. Occasionally when I come across a XP box it just feels weird. I'm so used to being able to type something in my start screen and pressing enter that it's become part of my daily workflow. If I had to use XP as a main OS again I would take forever to get used to it.

But for retro gaming it's OK. Would prefer RTM though, because I think it's much faster than SP3, which isn't really needed on a box that won't see the internet.