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Reply 460 of 468, by wiretap

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digger wrote on 2020-10-18, 12:43:
Hmmm, I checked on-line, and I'll admit that there are indeed quite a few more hydrogen stations in for instance Germany at this […]
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robertmo wrote on 2020-10-18, 12:26:
Germany has quite a lot. Japan has even more than superchargers. South Korea has quite a few too. Many western and northern Euro […]
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digger wrote on 2020-10-18, 11:25:

where are all the hydrogen stations?

Germany has quite a lot.
Japan has even more than superchargers.
South Korea has quite a few too.
Many western and northern European cities have them too.

Hmmm, I checked on-line, and I'll admit that there are indeed quite a few more hydrogen stations in for instance Germany at this point than I had expected.

I remain skeptical, though. Most hydrogen is still produced as a by-product from fossil fuel production, and there are still only a handful of FCEV models available to choose from. Also, you can't charge them at home or at a destination charger, so you'd be completely dependent on those (still relatively rare) hydrogen stations to keep them fuelled.

By the way, a hydrogen station is still considerably more expensive to build than an EV fast charging station.

Cost per station is comparable for material and installation costs when starting from scratch. For a customer building like you see at standard gas stations (1500-3000sq.ft), plus 8 charging/fueling stalls, it will run you a little over $1M-$1.5M on commercial property on average in the US. The only difference between hydrogen and BEV is the infrastructure required. With hydrogen you would need trucks to refill the main tank (easy, cheap).. with a charging station, you need to have the electricity available on your leg of the grid - if you're already at capacity it get very expensive. But of course an 8-bay fast charging setup is only about $300k installed for the parts/labor, not including grid interconnect costs. For a hydrogen filling station and 8-bay setup, it is about $500k but would use the same style truck-fill that stations are already used to and don't have to up front the grid issues and costs which will easily exceed $200k if you need a new 22kV feed (and the corresponding 480V xfmrs) run from a 120kV leg. (highly likely across most of the US at least)

As more and more charging stations pop up, this becomes a problem since it is like every animal (charging station) in the jungle (city/town) trying to fight for the same watering hole (grid) that's drying up. It would be awesome to have fast chargers as prevalent as gas stations, but it isn't feasible from both an infrastructure standpoint and a cost standpoint anytime soon. The majority of people will need to supplement with slow chargers in their home, unless they get a direct 480VAC feed to their house if they are lucky enough to have a 22kV feed in their back yard - but once they see the cost to install it they will quickly say no. (had a 480V xfmr installed at my grandfather's house for some of his sword making machinery, and the electric company also charges you with a power factor multiplier - $40k installed)

Maybe it is just the difference in our countries, but we drive a lot and need tons of fuel stations.. sometimes multiple gas stations on every major intersection. We already fight for gas pumps and have lines to get into stations at rush hour. Converting all this for electrical needs is an immense challenge that far exceeds a liquid fuel. We would need even more charging stations than gas stations since the wait to charge exceeds a 5 minute 100% fill for liquid.

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Reply 461 of 468, by Almoststew1990

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After picked up my car from storage for 2 years, it's had £2,000 of work on it to make it safe/ road worthy

New disks and pads
New handbrake shoes
New wheel hubs and ABS sensors x3 which were swollen egg shaped and causing the traction control to lock up
Fixed the central locking (which stopped the fuel filler cap opening and was a huge pain in the ass all the time)
New thermostat (old one was stuck open).
Major service.

It's now fairly driveable but I still have a long list of annoyances and niggles:

The front driver side tyre leaks air - 13psi in two weeks (only 50 miles driven!) and backs leak 6psi in the same time (always have done). Going to get a wheel refurb place to have a look. They definitely need a refurb but if a refurb won't fix the leak I might have to dive into aftermarket wheels (none of which I like so far).

Front wings are awful for rust and rattle can paint jobs. Going to get £35 non-oem eBay specials and a proper place to respray - going to be far from perfect as a full front end respray and blend is needed but much better than what it is like currently!

Parking sensors don't work, nor the dipping passenger side mirror (which was very useful)
If I end up with a spare £200 maybe a new gearknob and steering wheel retrim

7x8K5VJh.jpg

9jPiHYZh.jpg

Still a nice place to sit
f8EWgihh.jpg

Ryzen 3700X | 16GB 3600MHz RAM | Nvidia GeForce 1070ti | 1Tb NVME SSD | Windows 10
Athlon 3200+ @ 3800+ (Venice) | Some Ram | Nvidia GeForce GTX645 / 7950GT
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Reply 462 of 468, by martinot

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robertmo wrote on 2020-10-18, 12:26:
Germany has quite a lot. Japan has even more than superchargers. South Korea has quite a few too. Many western and northern Euro […]
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digger wrote on 2020-10-18, 11:25:

where are all the hydrogen stations?

Germany has quite a lot.
Japan has even more than superchargers.
South Korea has quite a few too.
Many western and northern European cities have them too.

Ver few here in Europe. Also had some really bad experiences here. Here is one explosion in my neighbour country Norway last year:

https://www.electrive.com/2019/06/11/norway-e … illing-station/

I am very glad we do not have too much of those stations in Europe!

Reply 463 of 468, by martinot

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wiretap wrote on 2020-10-17, 14:41:

The DoE initiative for nuclear powered hydrogen production is on par with electrical battery charging as far as cost goes. It uses off-peak electricity to produce hydrogen, in which the power plant sells for a profit at the same rate electricity is sold at.

I charge my car off-peak in the night during hours when it is very low cost. Works very well.

Reply 464 of 468, by martinot

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wiretap wrote on 2020-10-18, 14:02:

The majority of people will need to supplement with slow chargers in their home, unless they get a direct 480VAC feed to their house if they are lucky enough to have a 22kV feed in their back yard - but once they see the cost to install it they will quickly say no. (had a 480V xfmr installed at my grandfather's house for some of his sword making machinery, and the electric company also charges you with a power factor multiplier - $40k installed)

I agree that being able to charge at home (or work) is really the key to owning an EV. I see public quick charging, like the 250 kW Tesla SuC, as just a complement while being on long trips from home.

In most countries of Europe you have three-phase connections (3 x 400VAC) to all residential homes as the normal standard.

Reply 465 of 468, by wiretap

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martinot wrote on 2020-10-22, 23:49:
wiretap wrote on 2020-10-18, 14:02:

The majority of people will need to supplement with slow chargers in their home, unless they get a direct 480VAC feed to their house if they are lucky enough to have a 22kV feed in their back yard - but once they see the cost to install it they will quickly say no. (had a 480V xfmr installed at my grandfather's house for some of his sword making machinery, and the electric company also charges you with a power factor multiplier - $40k installed)

I agree that being able to charge at home (or work) is really the key to owning an EV. I see public quick charging, like the 250 kW Tesla SuC, as just a complement while being on long trips from home.

In most countries of Europe you have three-phase connections (3 x 400V) to all residential homes as the normal standard.

Yea I've seen some countries that do that. How many amp service is it typically? I thought they just split the phases at the breaker so you had 230V service in the home wiring.

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Reply 467 of 468, by martinot

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wiretap wrote on 2020-10-22, 23:59:
martinot wrote on 2020-10-22, 23:49:
wiretap wrote on 2020-10-18, 14:02:

The majority of people will need to supplement with slow chargers in their home, unless they get a direct 480VAC feed to their house if they are lucky enough to have a 22kV feed in their back yard - but once they see the cost to install it they will quickly say no. (had a 480V xfmr installed at my grandfather's house for some of his sword making machinery, and the electric company also charges you with a power factor multiplier - $40k installed)

I agree that being able to charge at home (or work) is really the key to owning an EV. I see public quick charging, like the 250 kW Tesla SuC, as just a complement while being on long trips from home.

In most countries of Europe you have three-phase connections (3 x 400V) to all residential homes as the normal standard.

Yea I've seen some countries that do that. How many amp service is it typically? I thought they just split the phases at the breaker so you had 230V service in the home wiring.

We have a service connection with 25A per phase to our house (25A x 3 x 400V), which I think is very typical.

20A is also common for smaller houses, and 35A for large houses with high consumption. 16A is minimum and typical for smaller cabins, summer houses, etc.

Normal outlets in the house is 1-phase 230V just like you say:

180595-44-1848186-Elko-Vgguttag_mmMqzW.jpg

You typically only use three phase connections for bigger appliances in the house like the central heating, warm water heater, oven, stove, pool, etc. Most are permanent connections (outdoor swimmingpool/SPA, central heating, etc), and some have indoor three phase outlets (oven, stove, etc.):

180125-44-perilexinflltuttag_KHrnbJ.jpg

It is also common to have some three phase outlets on the outside of the house, in the garage, basement, tool schack, etc. for some bigger power tools (larger air compressors, etc):

image.jpg?x=400&y=400

And now three phase connections is also used for electrical car charging, with typically 3 x 400V x 16A (this is what we use for 11 kW charging for our Tesla Model 3 and very common for most electrical cars), but some also have 3 x 400V x 32A (for a total of 22 kW charging , for some Tesla Model S versions, Renault Zoe, etc.):

type2-720x405.jpg

The connector is good for up to 3 x 400V x 64A (44 kW), but I do not now of any electrical cars with such large onboard chargers, and it would probably be too high effect for normal homes.