From now on, Norway is registering only plug-in vehicles

robertmo wrote on 2021-09-03, 14:59:

From now on, Norway is registering only plug-in vehicles

Leading the way for the rest of us 😍

Interestingly Norway fuels the worldwide climate change heavily by pumping oil in large amounts while it internally opts for a greenwashing agenda with EV first strategy.

it's about breathing and hydro power

Yeh I'm in no rush to go electric as a daily.
Soon enough EV will become the default choice and I'm ok with that
But I know I'll become nostalgic for a car with a "real engine" so may as well enjoy it while I can!

"Real engine" cars are not going away in our lifetimes.

Munx wrote on 2021-09-06, 14:54:

"Real engine" cars are not going away in our lifetimes.

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, likely within the next two decades, or even quicker. They will be relegated to niche old-timers.

For an apt comparison: with the exception of us nostalgics in the retro scene, who buys CRT-based monitors and TVs these days?

Disruptive change such as the electrification of cars tends to happen faster than you think.

blurks wrote on 2021-09-05, 19:24:

Interestingly Norway fuels the worldwide climate change heavily by pumping oil in large amounts while it internally opts for a greenwashing agenda with EV first strategy.

Yeah, that's the cynical way to view it. At least they're spending their oil riches on making the transition. If there's any country in the world that is a good example of how to manage the proceeds from its natural resources for the proper benefit of its people, it's Norway. My country could have learned a thing or two from them. (We didn't spend our natural gas revenues very wisely here in the Netherlands.)

It will be interesting when all these battery power/part powered cars/vehicals need replacement batteries and the cost there of.

In my mind it is just not as black and white as currently claimed....There will have to by some rethinking on this in a decade or so.

robertmo wrote on 2021-09-06, 05:54:

it's about breathing and hydro power

Plant anything natural that produces oxygen generally needs CO2 to produce it.

Hydro power is just one of the many options available to us. All need to be maintained to keep them running. Including vehicles to supply the necessary parts as well of the rest of the infrastructure to order, supply and build those parts. Also the excavation and supply of the raw materials to be generated to supply to the manufactures of those components.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-06, 19:26:

It will be interesting when all these battery power/part powered cars/vehicals need replacement batteries and the cost there of.

In my mind it is just not as black and white as currently claimed....There will have to by some rethinking on this in a decade or so.

It's an important point you bring up. Since mass market EVs have been around for about a decade now, it's been long enough at this point to get an idea of how well EV batteries hold up. And it turns out that, with the exception of some hotter regions such as Arizona and Gulf states and such, EV batteries (even the earlier generation ones) have been lasting longer than many have expected. The quickest degradation takes place within the first few years and only costs a few percentage points of effective range. After that, the rate of degradation tends to taper of, at least with proper use and care. At least, that's been the case with the battery in the earlier versions of the Tesla Model S.

Recycling infrastructure is also being built out. Also, battery technology is advancing at quite a rapid pace now. One innovation I like is the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) battery, since it contains no Nickel or Cobalt, making it free of conflict materials, while being more durable (supporting more charging cycles) and safer. It does come at the cost of a slightly lower energy density compared to more conventional Lithium Ion chemistries, but LFP technology has been catching up.

digger wrote on 2021-09-06, 19:51:

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-06, 19:26:

It will be interesting when all these battery power/part powered cars/vehicals need replacement batteries and the cost there of.

In my mind it is just not as black and white as currently claimed....There will have to by some rethinking on this in a decade or so.

It's an important point you bring up. Since mass market EVs have been around for about a decade now, it's been long enough at this point to get an idea of how well EV batteries hold up. And it turns out that, with the exception of some hotter regions such as Arizona and Gulf states and such, EV batteries (even the earlier generation ones) have been lasting longer than many have expected. The quickest degradation takes place within the first few years and only costs a few percentage points of effective range. After that, the rate of degradation tends to taper of, at least with proper use and care. At least, that's been the case with the battery in the earlier versions of the Tesla Model S.

Recycling infrastructure is also being built out. Also, battery technology is advancing with quite a rapid pace now. One innovation I like is the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) battery, since it contains no Nickel or Cobalt, making it free of conflict materials, while being more durable (with more charging cycles) and safer. It does come at the cost of a slightly lower energy density compared to more conventional Lithium Ion chemistries, but LFP technology has been catching up.

A lady here in NZ bought a second hand EV with dying batteries. It was going to cost her for the batteries than the total cost of the car which was in very good condition other than the batteries.

Caluser2000 wrote on 2021-09-06, 19:56:

A lady here in NZ bought a second hand EV with dying batteries. It was going to cost her for the batteries than the total cost of the car which was in very good condition other than the batteries.

Yeah, that's shameful, both of the seller and of the car manufacturer.

When buying a used EV, it's a good idea to bring an OBD-II Bluetooth dongle and a phone app to read the battery health, but it's not fair to expect average buyers to be so savvy.

I'm hoping (and expecting) that an aftermarket battery replacement industry will pop up to meet this demand. Not just to offer affordable replacement batteries, but also upgrades that increase the range beyond what the car was initially sold with. A matter of time, I think. EVs have lower maintenance requirements due to having less parts, so auto mechanics will have to start offering solutions like this if they want to stay in business. In addition to aftermarket battery upgrades, EV conversion service for the many ICE vehicles still out there might offer car repair shops an economic lifeline as well.

digger wrote on 2021-09-06, 18:18:

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, lik […]
Show full quote

Munx wrote on 2021-09-06, 14:54:

"Real engine" cars are not going away in our lifetimes.

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, likely within the next two decades, or even quicker. They will be relegated to niche old-timers.

For an apt comparison: with the exception of us nostalgics in the retro scene, who buys CRT-based monitors and TVs these days?

Disruptive change such as the electrification of cars tends to happen faster than you think.

This is what I belive as well, at least in Europe.
Here in the UK once a car is over 10 years old it looses just about all it's value and you almost never see 20 year old cars unless the owner is making a real effort to keep them on the road.
For the average person though repair costs outwiegh the cars value so they will just trade it in for scrap even though the car has a good few years life in it. So really I don't see battery life been a big problem in the future as cars are already been scrapped around this time anyway.

In the last 5 years EV's have become comon here especailly in London where EV's are congestion charge exempt, some councils give discounts for on street parking, plus any goverment cashback scheme that may be happining.

On the flipside my car (or anyone whos diesel isnt Euro6) will be charged £12.50 any time you drive into outter London starting from end of October, or in other words alot of pre 2015 diesel 's are about to be scrapped as supply will massivle outwiegh demand.

All this helps speed up the common use of ICE

chinny22 wrote on 2021-09-07, 07:59:

This is what I belive as well, at least in Europe. Here in the UK once a car is over 10 years old it looses just about all it's […]
Show full quote

digger wrote on 2021-09-06, 18:18:

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, lik […]
Show full quote

Munx wrote on 2021-09-06, 14:54:

"Real engine" cars are not going away in our lifetimes.

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, likely within the next two decades, or even quicker. They will be relegated to niche old-timers.

For an apt comparison: with the exception of us nostalgics in the retro scene, who buys CRT-based monitors and TVs these days?

Disruptive change such as the electrification of cars tends to happen faster than you think.

This is what I belive as well, at least in Europe.
Here in the UK once a car is over 10 years old it looses just about all it's value and you almost never see 20 year old cars unless the owner is making a real effort to keep them on the road.
For the average person though repair costs outwiegh the cars value so they will just trade it in for scrap even though the car has a good few years life in it. So really I don't see battery life been a big problem in the future as cars are already been scrapped around this time anyway.

In the last 5 years EV's have become comon here especailly in London where EV's are congestion charge exempt, some councils give discounts for on street parking, plus any goverment cashback scheme that may be happining.

On the flipside my car (or anyone whos diesel isnt Euro6) will be charged £12.50 any time you drive into outter London starting from end of October, or in other words alot of pre 2015 diesel 's are about to be scrapped as supply will massivle outwiegh demand.

All this helps speed up the common use of ICE

I was thinking the opposite - you see loads of 15 to 20 year old cars on the road in the UK! I however don't live in London.

The flip side of a car "losing all it's value" is that in the UK these cars are very cheap compared to a lot of the world. You can buy yourself an old car that costs say £750-£1000 that will give you a few years of cheap motoring, or you can spend £250 a month on an EV lease.

The main thing stopping me going electric is the very principal of spending hundreds a month on a car. I bought a 2003 BMW 330ci 8 years ago for £3,000 and it still runs fine now. 230hp, electric leather memory heated seats, auto wipers, auto lights. It's got stuff that's basic spec today (high spec back then). The value proposition of a new car is, well, crap. I pay cheap insurance because I don't crash, high road tax, and a £40 MOT roadworthy check every year.

And if I'd leased I would have had 3 to 4 new vehicles in that time. More stuff out the ground, more plastic, more computer chips, more shipping from the other side of the world. I don't know what is going to be worse for the environment - burning petrol for 8 years or 4 new cars and all that entails.

Anyway it's this bottom end market which I would suggest is surprisingly large (outside London). There are 328 cars for sale within 50 miles of me on the paid for advertising website autotrader. A lot of the UK still buys in this arena, that EV and leasing / Hire purchase can't touch right now and I'm not sure how it can.

Almoststew1990 wrote on 2021-09-07, 16:01:

chinny22 wrote on 2021-09-07, 07:59:

This is what I belive as well, at least in Europe. Here in the UK once a car is over 10 years old it looses just about all it's […]
Show full quote

digger wrote on 2021-09-06, 18:18:

Not entirely perhaps, but I believe most of us will live to see the sale of the last newly produced mass market ICE vehicle, likely within the next two decades, or even quicker. They will be relegated to niche old-timers.

For an apt comparison: with the exception of us nostalgics in the retro scene, who buys CRT-based monitors and TVs these days?

Disruptive change such as the electrification of cars tends to happen faster than you think.

This is what I belive as well, at least in Europe.
Here in the UK once a car is over 10 years old it looses just about all it's value and you almost never see 20 year old cars unless the owner is making a real effort to keep them on the road.
For the average person though repair costs outwiegh the cars value so they will just trade it in for scrap even though the car has a good few years life in it. So really I don't see battery life been a big problem in the future as cars are already been scrapped around this time anyway.

In the last 5 years EV's have become comon here especailly in London where EV's are congestion charge exempt, some councils give discounts for on street parking, plus any goverment cashback scheme that may be happining.

On the flipside my car (or anyone whos diesel isnt Euro6) will be charged £12.50 any time you drive into outter London starting from end of October, or in other words alot of pre 2015 diesel 's are about to be scrapped as supply will massivle outwiegh demand.

All this helps speed up the common use of ICE

I was thinking the opposite - you see loads of 15 to 20 year old cars on the road in the UK! I however don't live in London.

The flip side of a car "losing all it's value" is that in the UK these cars are very cheap compared to a lot of the world. You can buy yourself an old car that costs say £750-£1000 that will give you a few years of cheap motoring, or you can spend £250 a month on an EV lease.

maybe that's a capital city v smaller towns thing, reflecting differences in income and maybe importance of status, prevalence of company cars and so on

i'm not sure on the equation of an old car continuing for 5 more years being worse than buy an all new EV (in terms of environment)

also, about older cars being cheap - there's limited competition with public transport. a friend once bought a very cheap car specifically in place of a train ticket, drove all day to the destination, sold the car and the net result was a small saving, ie it was cheaper to buy the car and sell it again, despite gas etc

there is something about an older car not unlike a vintage PC - the top of the line PC we may have wanted but couldn't afford back then can be had now, well so can many cars that once were considered top of the line, almost unattainable and whose equivalents now would still be too expensive, the joy of used cars!

Almoststew1990 wrote on 2021-09-07, 16:01:

The flip side of a car "losing all it's value" is that in the UK these cars are very cheap compared to a lot of the world. You can buy yourself an old car that costs say £750-£1000 that will give you a few years of cheap motoring, or you can spend £250 a month on an EV lease.

Leasing, That's a good point I hadn't thought of. Yeh I can imagine that happens much more in London and larger cities.
And don't get me wrong I think it's crazy how much a car deprecates simply because it turns 10 and more then happy to grab a deal.

Growing up in Oz, typically your first car was 5-10 years older then you, over here 30 year old car as a daily is unthinkable but rust does kill a lot more cars here and that may have changed with cheap cars from Asia right on Australia's doorstep.

updated

Tesla Launches First Supercharging Stations In Africa.

How about a tunnel too 😉

https://youtu.be/A3I8BISQfWc?t=41
https://youtu.be/Jl_5NHTvDAI?t=155
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIHxTt3Wbso
https://youtu.be/jyQC6lR3v0E?t=11

I just picked up the blandest car out there - a Corolla CE, silver. Not gonna bother taking pics, just stand outside having a smoke (or the duration of a fill up) and you'll spot 4.

It'll make a great winter commuting car.