From the EULA:

7. Downgrade Rights. If you acquired a device from a manufacturer or installer with a Professional version of Windows preinstalled on it, you may use either a Windows 8.1 Pro or Windows 7 Professional version, but only for so long as Microsoft provides support for that earlier version as set forth in (aka.ms/windowslifecycle). This agreement applies to your use of the earlier versions. If the earlier version includes different components, any terms for those components in the agreement that comes with the earlier version apply to your use of such components. Neither the manufacturer or installer, nor Microsoft, is obligated to supply earlier versions to you. You must obtain the earlier version separately, for which you may be charged a fee. At any time, you may replace an earlier version with the version you originally acquired.

There are references around indicating a 30 day window to revert after upgrading, but these are not mentioned in the EULA.

I think that is a different kind of 'downgrade': Namely, if you buy a PC with Windows 10 Pro preinstalled, you may downgrade it to an older version (even though technically you do not have a license for that version). This is mainly a courtesy for professional users (they may not have their infrastructure ready for the new Windows yet, so they need new machines to be running Win7 still. But you can't buy Windows 7 keys and installation media anymore).
That is different from upgrading a Windows 7 installation to Windows 10, since you actually own a Windows 7 license. It says nothing about invalidating that license. I don't think Microsoft would even be allowed to invalidate licenses like that.

Also, I wonder if we should even take this passage at face value: "You may use... but only for so long as Microsoft provides support for that earlier version as set forth in (aka.ms/windowslifecycle)."
That implies that you may no longer use a version of Windows after its lifecycle has ended. I'm pretty sure that is not the case. You are no longer entitled to any updates or upgrades, but afaik it's not illegal to continue using old versions of Windows after their lifecycle.

If your particular EULA says you may not use the older version past its life-cycle, then I guess you're technically not allowed to (or at least it could be interpreted that way, in the unlikely case that somebody cared)... even if nothing's really preventing you from doing that.
Adobe has been offering older versions of their CS suite for download free of charge, with no activation required, however the small print still requires you to own a valid license for the older version to be entitled to install and use it; although I suppose that case is a bit more cut-and-dry...

The EULA would certainly be superseded by existing national and state laws. For this reason, some EULAs may have a questionable legal basis and in fact be illegal.

Has there ever been a instance where a EULA is actually legally binding at all?

DracoNihil wrote:

Has there ever been a instance where a EULA is actually legally binding at all?

The only known case where AT&T changes their EULA to bars their users to do the class-action lawsuit against AT&T.
Users can still do lawsuit by him/herself but can not employing a more influential and wider ranging class-action lawsuit.
That have been uphold by Supreme Court's decision in 2011.

After learning that estabilished precedent/facts, many companies began including the similar clauses regarding the ban on class-action lawsuit in their EULAs.

Next step would be "Windows 365" 😲

Well, at least in Germany (were I life atm) is it when you buy software you may use it till you die. Something different is a time bases license like that 365 or Antivirus software.

Roman78 wrote:

Next step would be "Windows 365" 😲

Well, at least in Germany (were I life atm) is it when you buy software you may use it till you die. Something different is a time bases license like that 365 or Antivirus software.

Nice...an OS I'd have to rent 🤣
Terrible idea 😵

But this might actually happen, I can even see that name being used 🤣

So... today I got that GWX on 2 machines in a domain. Even through a WSUS were the 3035583 update is disabled. Strange is that on the first machine it was installed in 11 November 2015 and the second on on 17 December 2015 (don't know how) and today both popped up on the taskbar.

I smell trouble....

This is someone who actually took a step, and I applaud her for that:
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/microsoft_fi … ed_upgrade.html

More effective than what I did, complaining on some comment spaces. 😜

No surprise there, they already got sued by one lady for $10000. If people will actually realize that there is easy money to be made Microsoft will go bankrupt. People are actually already interested a class action lawsuit. So it's more to come. Upgrade 10 Class Action LawSuit

archsan wrote:

This is someone who actually took a step, and I applaud her for that:
http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/microsoft_fi … ed_upgrade.html

More effective than what I did, complaining on some comment spaces. 😜

Dreamer_of_the_past wrote:

No surprise there, they already got sued by one lady for $10000. If people will actually realize that there is easy money to be made Microsoft will go bankrupt. People are actually already interested a class action lawsuit. So it's more to come. Upgrade 10 Class Action LawSuit

I do hope so. If anything, it would discourage software giants from shoving unwanted software into their consumer's throats. I hope the flood gate would open soon, which is a good thing.

Yeah, interesting to see how that continues even after the free upgrade period ended (or especially afterwards, let's not forget too fast).

My biggest complaints about Windows 10 (not even about the ads or telemetry):

* Flash built-in -- yes, you can brute force REMOVE it using a script or manually delete several folders with the help of Unlocker to make things easier -- don't forget its DISM package entries in the registry too to prevent future Flash-related updates. You'll have to do it again after a reinstall of upgrade, unless you can create a custom install image (Enterprise maybe) -- Flash-related updates are some of the most frequent (and therefore annoying if you have to restart more often just because of this OBSOLETE stuff)

* Updates, forced -- forcing to restart, waking from sleep (all amendable, but still a hassle) -- do yourself a favor, go see UpdateOrchestrator in task scheduler, disable "Reboot" and then OWN the file, leave no special permissions -- also check group policy editor, update-related options if you are on Pro (I think you should be at least on Pro)

* This whole heavy-handed upgrade fiasco

Other than that, I know it's the most efficient Windows ever. Substantial audio stack improvement using native WDM drivers (+ more to come).

And just like OS X-->MacOS, it's not like you'll have any other options if you're going to use Windows.

archsan wrote:

Flash built-in -- yes, you can brute force REMOVE it using a script or manually delete several folders with the help of Unlocker to make things easier -- don't forget its DISM package entries in the registry too to prevent future Flash-related updates. You'll have to do it again after a reinstall of upgrade, unless you can create a custom install image (Enterprise maybe) -- Flash-related updates are some of the most frequent (and therefore annoying if you have to restart more often just because of this OBSOLETE stuff)

Flash, unfortunately, is far from obsolete, and while its updates are annoying, I don't think they actually force you to restart, ever. However, they sometimes do break things, so I try to stick with their ESR when possible.

^ YES Flash IS obsolete unless you're playing/making casual games or watching live streams, in which case the provider should move to HTML5 anyway.

YES, your computer will eventually auto-reboot when you're not using it, even if you're logged on, unless you change its default behavior. I've experienced losing my unsaved files due to that.

If you shut down your computer every night like most home users do, it's probably not a problem. But then who's to say about what I should do? There are others who also keep their machines logged on for weeks or more at a time. With Linux it's not a problem at all.

archsan wrote:

^ YES Flash IS obsolete unless you're playing/making casual games or watching live streams, in which case the provider should move to HTML5 anyway.

You just explained why it's not obsolete.

The provider should move (says you, at least), but as you know many of them have not moved.

BTW, many HTML5 implementations (e.g., Youtube), have issues of their own and are not necessarily better than Flash. I prefer to use Flash with Youtube still. Fewer strange problems and better compatibility. Even seems a little lighter on the CPU.

And what's wrong with playing casual games? Is this forbidden? 😉

archsan wrote:

YES, your computer will eventually auto-reboot when you're not using it, even if you're logged on, unless you change its default behavior. I've experienced losing my unsaved files due to that.

I have never experienced an auto-reboot, and not even a manual reboot request due to a Flash update. "Never" may be wrong, but definitely as long as I can remember (several years at least). Are you sure it's because of flash, and not some other update?

archsan wrote:

There are others who also keep their machines logged on for weeks or more at a time. With Linux it's not a problem at all.

I also keep my machines logged on for weeks or more at a time. With Windows it is also not a problem at all, if you disabled automatic updates. Granted, I understand that Windows 10 is problematic in this regard, but I don't think that Flash is to blame.

That is, unless the way Flash integrates with Windows 10 makes it require reboots. If that's the case, then it's very very bad indeed.

Well, OK, I'd use another laptop that's not mine to watch F1 livestream every once in a while. 😜 But if it's a paid service, I'll forward to them the message. It's happening. Others have already started to demand it as well. (search "flash is obsolete", or "occupyflash" and you'll see it)

I've experienced having a machine without flash since at least nine months and it's already very doable. Youtube and others, I've experienced not a single problem due to HTML5. Regarding CPU use, well, I can't/won't comment further on that, but Flash have been some of the worst memory hogs along with some adblockers in my experience (I use Opera now btw, it's always smooth & responsive unlike Firefox, even if the latter's already a "64-bit" build; and I think it's quite a bit lighter/meaner than Chrome as well).

Casual games are fine, I play pool all the time on my cell and tablet, (but they don't NEED to be made with Flash!), and I think the only recent desktop game built on Flash I played was Machinarium. Hm, there has to be a Flash alternative/wrapper or something that's not so tightly integrated.

I took a quick look at some of the Flash update KBs (they're usually mixed together along with other security updates which require reboot anyway), and especially if some of the files are being used, then yes, you'll still have to restart. Of course you can delay for a couple days maybe. These Flash-related files are basically treated like system files, you'll have to take ownership to remove/modify them (which is why I suggested Unlocker if you're doing it manually).

Now daily built-in AV/antimalware definition/database updates don't require restart, and after a period of manually checking and accepting updates, I decided to put them on _automatic_ BUT also to never have my system restart unless I do it myself. Much more convenient that way. Trust me, I've been and am still seeing a LOT less updates annoyance compared to a machine with Flash still installed. 😀

One of the reasons I disabled automatic updates generally.

I don't understand why I have to install a language security update for Cyrillic or Traditional Chinese.

And than, while playing some games getting LAGs because some stupid update is downloading...

There are ways to prevent automatic downloading and installing of updates in Windows 10. There is a way to selectively opt-out of specific updates, such as video driver and sound driver installs, that are causing problems. You just have to know how to do it. I know how to do it, so Windows 10 doesn't bother me. I've also disabled all telemetry on my copies of Windows 10, so boo-hoo on the spyware crybabies. Just turn the telemetry off. It's not exactly hard to do. Hell, someone even wrote an app to do it all for you. A simple Google search will show you how.

But no, people would rather bitch and cry about it than actually get off their butts to DO something about it.

While I am personally not a fan of the lack of privacy controls in the home/pro versions of Windows 10, at the same time, I have also seen the effects of disabling all that telemetry.

Firefox "power users" all disable things like telemetry as soon as they install it.
Regular users leave telemetry enabled.

The result is that the telemetry is telling Mozilla that people don't use advanced features, and they are now being removed from the browser.
Of course you have the power users complaining about this, but it doesn't matter. Mozilla don't listen because their telemetry is telling them a different story.

So as much as I dislike the lack of an option to disable things like telemetry in Windows 10, I also don't want to see decisions made for the OS based on the average user, without any data at all from the "power users" contributing to it.

archsan wrote:

Flash built-in -- yes, you can brute force REMOVE it using a script or manually delete several folders with the help of Unlocker to make things easier -- don't forget its DISM package entries in the registry too to prevent future Flash-related updates. You'll have to do it again after a reinstall of upgrade, unless you can create a custom install image (Enterprise maybe) -- Flash-related updates are some of the most frequent (and therefore annoying if you have to restart more often just because of this OBSOLETE stuff)

Internet Explorer has Flash built in. The OS does not.
Personally I'm fine with this. 99% of the browsing I do does not require Flash, so I use Firefox for it.
If a site does need Flash, I can open it in IE without having to install it system-wide.

archsan wrote:

Updates, forced -- forcing to restart, waking from sleep (all amendable, but still a hassle) -- do yourself a favor, go see UpdateOrchestrator in task scheduler, disable "Reboot" and then OWN the file, leave no special permissions -- also check group policy editor, update-related options if you are on Pro (I think you should be at least on Pro)

I would definitely like better control over driver updates as a user of Windows 10 Pro.
I don't want crap like the Logitech Download Assistant and Razer Wizard installed on my system. I don't want you to keep replacing the latest Sound Blaster Z driver with an old Recon3D driver.

However for most people, it is a good thing that Windows forces updates on them.
Without Windows forcing updates on people, they wouldn't update at all.
I know a lot of people that avoid updates because they "heard it was bad" or similar stories. That's not a good thing.
I have family members that would be two or more OS versions behind on their mobile devices if it were not for me updating them when I see them.

FFXIhealer wrote:

I've also disabled all telemetry on my copies of Windows 10, so boo-hoo on the spyware crybabies. Just turn the telemetry off. It's not exactly hard to do. Hell, someone even wrote an app to do it all for you. A simple Google search will show you how.

Windows ignores the telemetry settings unless you're running an Enterprise build of the OS and bypasses the Hosts file. Doesn't matter what some app sets.