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First post, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Well, what would you expect from modern music anyway, let alone game music? As my friend obobskivich has put, most modern music are mono anyway, with nothing but occasional panning here and there. However, sometimes you find an unexpectedly good song. And in my case, it is Just Do It Up from Command & Conquer by Frank Klepacki.

I listened to the song using my garage system --a pair of JBL L20T's driven by Sansui A40. Of course it's not Conrad-Johnson, but it's a pretty decent setup, and I listened nearfield, so I get a pretty accurate picture of the sound.

fXCG7jG.jpg
The setup.

Yes, just like most modern music, it is mostly mono, but when you hear it with good pair of speakers, you could hear the correct stereo imaging --that your hear the sound from the empty space between the speakers, instead of the speakers themselves. But what surprises me is when the phrase "just do it up" comes to play. The words "just do" comes from the right, while the remaining "it up" comes from the left, with pretty good panning effect. Of course, the panning is not in the same league with Singing Birds, Crying Beasts from Santana, where the guitar riff between the minute 0:42 to 0:50 pans significantly smoother from right to left. In Singing Birds, Crying Beasts, you could hear a moment when the guitar sound coming from the empty space between left and right speakers at it pans from right to left, while in Just Do It Up, the panning goes swiftly from extreme to extreme without "in-between" moment. However, for a game soundtrack, Just Do It Up is pretty impressive. I say Frank Klepacki did his homework pretty well.

Also, starting from the minute 1:20 of the song Just Do It Up, you could hear various phrases; two of them are "must get back to equal justice" (female vocal) and "repeat" (male vocal). Here Frank Klepacki obviously played with stereo imaging when composing the song, as the first phrase ("must get back to equal justice") comes far from the left and slightly below, while the second phrase ("repeat") comes slightly from the left and above. Well my JBL L20T's are not exactly Wilson Alexandria, but the L20T's are basically the same speakers as JBL 4406 nearfield monitors, and I listened from nearfield position as intended, so I could recognize the small nuances, and what I heard impresses me. I mean, it's just game soundtrack, but Klepacki took time and effort to master his songs more than adequately.

Another song which also impresses me is Blow It Up from Red Alert 2, composed by the same Frank Klepacki. Starting from the minute 2:00 you could hear some serious deep bass instead of exaggerated mid-bass typical of game soundtracks. I first recognized it when listening the song using my primary system --a pair of JBL 120Ti's driven by Sansui AU-7900. The JBL 120Ti's have 12 inch woofers, so it was pretty much different experience than, say, listening with Logitech Z-5500 gaming speakers.

But while I admire the composer's effort, I couldn't help but having this lingering question: why bother? Many gamers use typical gaming speakers anyway, with small sats and small "sub" that exaggerates midbass to cover up its lack of depth. And with such overemphasis on midbass, most gaming speakers sacrifices much details in other frequency spectrum (probably like the Logitech Z-5500 in my review). So why bother making stereo imaging tricks and other nice things when most listeners would fail to discern anyway?

Anyway, have you ever stumbled upon similar songs? Please share your experience.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 2 of 21, by xjas

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^^ No surprise at your choices, Frank Klepacki isn't a good "game musician", he's a good musician. Some of the C&C tracks could have easily slotted right into top-40 radio play when they came out, while others couldn't precisely because they were too wonderfully creative to fit into a pop genre. All from the same guy for the same OST that manages to remain cohesive & enhance the tongue-in-cheek nature of the games. Frank knows his stuff.

Off the top of my head, Forsaken also has a great soundtrack that was well-produced for the time. It was done by a well-known UK(?) DnB act but fits the action perfectly. I've slotted one of its tracks into my DJ sets a few times. 😜

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Reply 3 of 21, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Procyon wrote:

Not really a soundtrack but Terranova's use of Qsound in the cutscenes, especially the opening one always awed me.

Never heard it before, but you got me intrigued.

xjas wrote:

^^ No surprise at your choices, Frank Klepacki isn't a good "game musician", he's a good musician. Some of the C&C tracks could have easily slotted right into top-40 radio play when they came out, while others couldn't precisely because they were too wonderfully creative to fit into a pop genre. All from the same guy for the same OST that manages to remain cohesive & enhance the tongue-in-cheek nature of the games. Frank knows his stuff.

Off the top of my head, Forsaken also has a great soundtrack that was well-produced for the time. It was done by a well-known UK(?) DnB act but fits the action perfectly. I've slotted one of its tracks into my DJ sets a few times. 😜

Indeed, Klepacki rocks.

What rather disappoints me is Warcraft II soundtrack, like Human 1 theme. Make no mistake; it is a wonderful song, but the mastering doesn't sound quite good. Stereo imaging is vague and blurred, and most of the sounds are clumped together in the center. Dynamics feel compressed, even in this song, whose trumpet intro should make more impact. Ambience sounds artificial, but it is understandable since the song is created using MIDI instead of recorded from live orchestra. Warcraft II songs should sound grand and epic, but the sound stage doesn't sound very wide. I expected such epic song should be mastered better, yet I was mistaken.

Or maybe because I listen from the wrong position? Maybe because I listen from nearfield position? Perhaps Warcraft II soundtrack should be heard with sufficient distance from the speakers, to appreciate the 'big sound'?

Too bad the primary system in my bedroom/mancave is still under construction; once I found a matching pair of surround speakers (either JBL 4410 or JBL 4412), I'll definitely give Warcraft II soundtrack a second chance, using my Dynaco QD-2 ambience extractor and a proper 5.1 speaker setup.

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The Dynaco QD-2 ambience extractor.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 4 of 21, by Logistics

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I don't tend to mention anything Frank Klepacki did, in this sort of context because he is a professional, anyway. Just as Trent Reznor did an amazing job with the Quake 1 soundtrack, but he's a pro, and a prodigy of sorts who spearheaded his area of music. Still worth mention, but it's no surprise that it's well done. One I am trying to rediscover is a copy of Silent Thunder (2? I think).A10 Tank Killer as it has a great soundtrack that you might not want to play in your car due to funny looks, but it's good for critical listening, and spans several genres of music.

Reply 5 of 21, by maximus

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I can think of a few standouts:

  • Diablo II soundtrack by Matt Uelmen
  • Age of Mythology soundtrack by Stephen Rippy
  • anything Rom di Prisco did for the Need for Speed series

PCGames9505

Reply 8 of 21, by chinny22

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The guitar in town for Diablo or Act I in Diablo 2 I seem to remember panning from left to right.
LOD was recorded with an actual orchestra so would expect that to be pretty decent.

Guess its no coincidence that the only 3 game series whose music is in my proper music collection is mentioned here
Original C&C/RA
Diablo's
NFS SE, 3 and HS

Although I think NFS are just good songs, rather then anything special mastering wise.

PS
fun fact everyone probably already knows, Frank Klepacki is the voice of the commando in C&C

Reply 9 of 21, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Logistics wrote:

Silent Thunder (2? I think).A10 Tank Killer as it has a great soundtrack

Wait, it seems I still have the CD.

chinny22 wrote:

The guitar in town for Diablo or Act I in Diablo 2 I seem to remember panning from left to right.
LOD was recorded with an actual orchestra so would expect that to be pretty decent.

Now I remember it too. I also noticed that Diablo I town theme song has a lot of ambience. I wonder what would it sound with Dynaco QD-I.

chinny22 wrote:

Although I think NFS are just good songs, rather then anything special mastering wise.

This is my most favorite NFS 1 song (especially starting from the minute 2:02). The mastering is pretty decent, actually. Not worse than that of many similar songs of the same genre.

chinny22 wrote:

PS
fun fact everyone probably already knows, Frank Klepacki is the voice of the commando in C&C

He is???

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 10 of 21, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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And here's another game song with surprisingly good mastering. If your speakers have good stereo imaging, you might notice the direction of the 'water dripping sound effect' between the minute 0:15 and 0:17. Yes, the effects come from the space between your speakers, alternating between slightly to the left and slightly to the right.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 11 of 21, by xjas

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^^ As much as I love the music from Starcon II (a lot!!), I wouldn't call that 'good mastering.' The songs are Amiga/Protracker MOD files and aren't "mastered" at all (the term has a specific meaning in music production and by definition isn't really something you can do to tracker music being played in its native format.)

The way Amiga sound works is two channels are panned hard left & two are panned hard right, with no ability to vary it. That restriction persisted in the MOD format even as it spread to other platforms which allowed panning in software. It's been used to very good creative effect by many artists (like here), but it's more an example of working against the limitations of an odd format rather than something added to the production.

twitch.tv/oldskooljay - playing the obscure, forgotten & weird - most Tuesdays & Thursdays @ 6:30 PM PDT. Bonus streams elsewhen!

Reply 12 of 21, by Malik

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Some MIDI tracks in Heretic over SC-55 had great panning of sounds from one speaker to the other. I'm quite impressed with Heretic using my SC-55 MKII. But I'm not sure this would satisfy this thread's discussion.

In terms of Redbook Audio, I like the CD audio in Entomorph: Plague of the Darkfall.

Tristram soundtrack from Diablo 1 is very memorable.

5476332566_7480a12517_t.jpgSB Dos Drivers

Reply 13 of 21, by Jade Falcon

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The soundtrack for mechwarrior2 by Gregory Alper & Jeehun Hwang was a pretty big game changer if you ask me.
Still stands out today as being far better then most games.

Reply 14 of 21, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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Malik wrote:

Some MIDI tracks in Heretic over SC-55 had great panning of sounds from one speaker to the other. I'm quite impressed with Heretic using my SC-55 MKII. But I'm not sure this would satisfy this thread's discussion.

Yes it is. As long as the mastering is good, then it falls into the thread's category. 😀

xjas wrote:

^^ As much as I love the music from Starcon II (a lot!!), I wouldn't call that 'good mastering.' The songs are Amiga/Protracker MOD files and aren't "mastered" at all (the term has a specific meaning in music production and by definition isn't really something you can do to tracker music being played in its native format.)

The way Amiga sound works is two channels are panned hard left & two are panned hard right, with no ability to vary it. That restriction persisted in the MOD format even as it spread to other platforms which allowed panning in software. It's been used to very good creative effect by many artists (like here), but it's more an example of working against the limitations of an odd format rather than something added to the production.

The video doesn't seem to come from DOS or Amiga version; it's probably 3DO version, or probably The Ur-Quan Master remake. Please note the dripping water-like sound effects between the minute 0:15 and 0:17; it comes from the empty space between your speakers instead of being hard-panned left or right, and such thing never happened in the original, DOS version of Star Control 2.

I remember when tinkering with MODEDIT.EXE in early 1993 --the same time I played Star Control 2. I didn't find any flag to direct the stereo panning of a specific track/instrument, so I thought MOD was mono. But when I play my test song using MPPRO.COM, I noticed panning of some sort... It seems the player arbitrarily pans the track according to their number. For example, track #1 (which appears on the left-most side of the editor) is panned hard left, while track #4 (the right-most side) is panned hard right, while track #2 and #3 is mono. On the other hand, the DOS version of Star Control 2 sounds like mono.

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 15 of 21, by xjas

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Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman wrote:

The video doesn't seem to come from DOS or Amiga version; it's probably 3DO version, or probably The Ur-Quan Master remake. Please note the dripping water-like sound effects between the minute 0:15 and 0:17; it comes from the empty space between your speakers instead of being hard-panned left or right, and such thing never happened in the original, DOS version of Star Control 2.

I remember when tinkering with MODEDIT.EXE in early 1993 --the same time I played Star Control 2. I didn't find any flag to direct the stereo panning of a specific track/instrument, so I thought MOD was mono. But when I play my test song using MPPRO.COM, I noticed panning of some sort... It seems the player arbitrarily pans the track according to their number. For example, track #1 (which appears on the left-most side of the editor) is panned hard left, while track #4 (the right-most side) is panned hard right, while track #2 and #3 is mono. On the other hand, the DOS version of Star Control 2 sounds like mono.

That's how Amiga modules work, channels 1-4 are always L-R-R-L (in that order) because they're the hardware channels on the Paula sound chip, which had no concept of 'panning.' DOS-based MOD players may pan them arbitrarily, but most respected the Amiga convention. There is no panning information encoded into the module because it's useless on Amiga where the format was developed (unlike later DOS-originated formats like S3M or IT.)

Note that you can pan things into the middle on Amiga by playing the same note simultaneously on a left & right channel and adjusting the balance by changing the volume of one side or the other. That eats two of your precious sound channels though.

I don't remember if Starcon 2 had a stereo sound driver or not, it may have been SB1.x/2.0 only. It certainly didn't support SB16-type stereo.

The video you posted is of the 3DO version, it got (rather good) remixes of some of the tracks but not all of them. The Umgah theme isn't one of those. The way the track plays in that vid matches the original MOD file but it sounds like the channels are panned at more like 50% than 100% hard left/right.

The effect is achieved by playing the sample on a left channel, then immediately after on a right channel at lower volume. It's a useful trick. Here's what it looks like in a tracker:

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Channel 1 is left, channel 2 is right, sample 06 is the drip sound and note the volume on channel 2 is lowered to 32/16 and the pitch is also changed when they play simultaneously.

Again, this isn't "mastering", but extremely clever composition. 😀

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Reply 16 of 21, by xjas

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Note: if you want to get super-pedantic about it, the Amiga hardware channels actually had no "pan" at all, you got two separate RCA outputs comprised of channels 1&4 mixed together on one and 2&3 on the other one. Most people plugged these into a stereo amplifier or 1084 monitor though, making them into the left & right parts of a stereo pair.

twitch.tv/oldskooljay - playing the obscure, forgotten & weird - most Tuesdays & Thursdays @ 6:30 PM PDT. Bonus streams elsewhen!

Reply 17 of 21, by Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman

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xjas wrote:

That's how Amiga modules work, channels 1-4 are always L-R-R-L (in that order) because they're the hardware channels on the Paula sound chip, which had no concept of 'panning.' DOS-based MOD players may pan them arbitrarily, but most respected the Amiga convention. There is no panning information encoded into the module because it's useless on Amiga where the format was developed (unlike later DOS-originated formats like S3M or IT.)

Ah indeed, I remember again now. Yes, during highschool, I was dying to find the right parameters to pan the samples, to no avail. Then a buddy of mine told me that MOD panning is based on track. I didn't quite remember if it's LRRL or LLRR though.

xjas wrote:
Note that you can pan things into the middle on Amiga by playing the same note simultaneously on a left & right channel and adj […]
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Note that you can pan things into the middle on Amiga by playing the same note simultaneously on a left & right channel and adjusting the balance by changing the volume of one side or the other. That eats two of your precious sound channels though.

I don't remember if Starcon 2 had a stereo sound driver or not, it may have been SB1.x/2.0 only. It certainly didn't support SB16-type stereo.

The video you posted is of the 3DO version, it got (rather good) remixes of some of the tracks but not all of them. The Umgah theme isn't one of those. The way the track plays in that vid matches the original MOD file but it sounds like the channels are panned at more like 50% than 100% hard left/right.

The effect is achieved by playing the sample on a left channel, then immediately after on a right channel at lower volume. It's a useful trick. Here's what it looks like in a tracker:

Screen Shot 2017-06-30 at 2.10.20 am.png

Channel 1 is left, channel 2 is right, sample 06 is the drip sound and note the volume on channel 2 is lowered to 32/16 and the pitch is also changed when they play simultaneously.

Again, this isn't "mastering", but extremely clever composition. 😀

A clever trick indeed. A for effort. It's probably not what you call 'mastering' in a traditional sense, but it earns my admiration that someone would take such effort for computer game music, and the result is indeed ear-catching.

Anyone else spotted such unexpectedly good game songs?

Never thought this thread would be that long, but now, for something different.....
Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman.

Reply 18 of 21, by alexsydneynsw

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The following is my opinion based on my experience as a 90s electronic music aficionado and amateur sound producer. I have no formal education and stopped playing with audio software in early 2000s.

I don't think the effect you describe is related to mastering which is more like artistic frequency separation (compression) and equalization no?

As a guy who played with many pirated VSTI plugins in the 90s I can say that this panoramic effect is automated in many cases with plugins similar but not limited to these: Wave Arts Panorama 3-D and Parallax Audio Virtual Sound Stage

It happens so in mid 90s a LOT of panoramic VST plugins popped out of nowhere - you can connect them to whatever sound software you use, they are universal.

Popular 90s acts like Chemical Brothers and Fat Boy Slim had a lot of experimentation going on with regards to creative sound panoramas with very pronounced panoramic effect, they also wrote tunes similar to the C&C one using artificial guitars. Popularity of pronounced panoramic effects died off with time after novelty of panoramic VST plugins weared off. The effect still exists throughout because it gives you a lot of artistic freedom, but artists stopped pushing it too far.

Unfortunately I don't remember the name of the actual Chemical Brothers album, but I fondly remember how panoramic effect of a skateboard rolling back and forth from speaker to speaker (and I could swear I heard rolling up and down) blew my socks away.

EDIT: everything I just said should probably be shifted forward 5-7 years. My memory is playing tricks with me. Jeez, time flies.

Reply 19 of 21, by senrew

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The soundtrack for Burn:Cycle by Simon Boswell gets regular play in my playlist rotation.

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