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Reply 500 of 617, by feipoa

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Acer Magic S23A
sold March 2022
$130 USD

$130? Wow! Are these cards any good? I pulled one out of a PC Chips system recently but figured it was junk. The S23A comes with these sound chips:
CX4237B
CS9233-CX
CS4112-CS

The regular Acer Magic S23 (no A suffix) also contains the CX423X, but instead of the second two Crystal chips, it contains a genuine Yamaha OPL3 chip.

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Reply 503 of 617, by Shreddoc

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feipoa wrote on 2022-05-18, 11:27:
Acer Magic S23A sold March 2022 $130 USD […]
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Acer Magic S23A
sold March 2022
$130 USD

$130? Wow! Are these cards any good? I pulled one out of a PC Chips system recently but figured it was junk. The S23A comes with these sound chips:
CX4237B
CS9233-CX
CS4112-CS

The regular Acer Magic S23 (no A suffix) also contains the CX423X, but instead of the second two Crystal chips, it contains a genuine Yamaha OPL3 chip.

Sentiment tended to evolve greatly over the decades!

2000: "generic legacy soundcard with annoying + limiting proprietary drivers, and potentially no+or compromised DOS operation. sometimes randomly found in cheap secondhand systems e.g. obviously, Acers.". Score, 3/10, Price, $1.

2022: "it's well built, good chipsets, and holy crap it might have an OPL, and/or wavetable, oh and it's a branded ISA soundcard omg!". Score, 8/10, Price, $130.

EDIT TO ADD: I'm not saying the sentiments are incorrect - at either time. They both reflect the reality of their respective presents.

Last edited by Shreddoc on 2022-05-19, 05:16. Edited 1 time in total.

Reply 504 of 617, by zyzzle

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The above post is a ridiculous testament to people who have way, way too much money on their hands and are ruining the hobby, playing like putty into evil scalpers' free enterprise insanity.

"Read it and weep" doesn't even begin to convey the absurdity of the spectacle.

Many to most hobbies are no longer viable now, thanks to scalpers and "free enterprise."

Collecting books, for example? 20 years ago you had your pick of any number of exceptional library sales. Now you can't get through the doors of such sales, since the scalpers, those greedy vultures, are mobbing those sales with their scanners and scoop up all the good stuff within 30 seconds of opening, only to resell for profit online.

Old collecting of DOS computers equipment is just more of the same: people hustling for profit... in today's expensive world.

As I've said before, I have been 'collecting' and *using* this stuff for almost 50 years now. I still use it, and enjoy it greatly, in the spirit in which it's intended. Provides much joy, and reminiscence to me. The day a scalper gets hold of my 50 years of treasures is the day that I shoot someone. I'd rather destroy it or give it away all for free to someone who will really use it and enjoy it, not resell it for profit.

Reply 505 of 617, by Shreddoc

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zyzzle wrote on 2022-05-19, 01:32:

The above post is a ridiculous testament to people who have way, way too much money on their hands and are ruining the hobby, playing like putty into evil scalpers' free enterprise insanity.

I should clarify.

The 2000 quote was how I felt about that soundcard, when I had one at that time - and cared for it not at all.

The 2022 quote, is how other people feel (and post) about it now.

I was highlighting how drastically the public sentiment has changed over that time.

zyzzle wrote on 2022-05-19, 01:32:

I'd rather destroy it or give it away all for free to someone who will really use it and enjoy it, not resell it for profit.

You say ^

But the ability to give things away for free is a luxury - a luxury which is strictly limited to those who, as you say:

zyzzle wrote on 2022-05-19, 01:32:

have way, way too much money on their hands

Much of the world is just trying to put food on the table, and pay the bills, and get a little bit ahead. NOT that I personally, am a hardware trader. Never have been. But I get it. The world's a lot bigger than that tiny minority who have boxes of old computer equipment and wish they had more.

Reply 506 of 617, by TheMobRules

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I think zyzzle is talking specifically about scalpers, who usually have enough money to buy all the stock they can find of a certain product until it's not available anywhere else and then they resell it at overinflated prices. So I definitely sympathize with him on that, since these scumbags are not there trying to "put food on the table", they don't add any value and do nothing but disrupt the market. And I bet those are the ones that have all their listings sponsored so eBay bombards you with them and they can also afford to hold on to an item for extended periods of time, relisting it indefinitely at a ridiculous price until some desperate dumbass pays $300 for their "Retro Vintage Generic IDE Controller".

A completely different situation is someone that has a few old components and sells them to make some money to pay the bills, or someone that saves stuff from being recycled and puts the effort to research about the items, and maybe even repairing/refurbishing before selling them.

In any case, I don't really understand what constitutes a "collectable item" these days. Take that sound card from feipoa's post: what's collectable about that? Just seems like a generic-ass card that could be useful on a retro build. But for collecting/displaying? I don't really understand what's unique about it to command a premium price.

Reply 507 of 617, by Meatball

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I was thinking Artex was mistaken for not posting here (in this thread at least) anymore; not letting us share in his latest finding, but now I'm thinking I am the one who is mistaken.

2080Ti
TitanXp/980Ti/260/7950GT-GX2/6800U/6200/5950U/4200/GF3-2/TNT1-2
3dfx 58-55-49-45-35-3-2K/100/2/Fusion/Rush/1/X-24/200SBi/100DB
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GLoria Synergy/I/II

Reply 508 of 617, by badmojo

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Meatball wrote on 2022-05-19, 03:33:

I was thinking Artex was mistaken for not posting here (in this thread at least) anymore; not letting us share in his latest finding, but now I'm thinking I am the one who is mistaken.

+1

Hysterical responses from those who feel entitled to cheap hardware "because that's how it was and always should be" have really taken the fun out of sharing here.

Life? Don't talk to me about life.

Reply 509 of 617, by Plasma

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zyzzle wrote on 2022-05-19, 01:32:
The above post is a ridiculous testament to people who have way, way too much money on their hands and are ruining the hobby, pl […]
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The above post is a ridiculous testament to people who have way, way too much money on their hands and are ruining the hobby, playing like putty into evil scalpers' free enterprise insanity.

"Read it and weep" doesn't even begin to convey the absurdity of the spectacle.

Many to most hobbies are no longer viable now, thanks to scalpers and "free enterprise."

Collecting books, for example? 20 years ago you had your pick of any number of exceptional library sales. Now you can't get through the doors of such sales, since the scalpers, those greedy vultures, are mobbing those sales with their scanners and scoop up all the good stuff within 30 seconds of opening, only to resell for profit online.

Old collecting of DOS computers equipment is just more of the same: people hustling for profit... in today's expensive world.

As I've said before, I have been 'collecting' and *using* this stuff for almost 50 years now. I still use it, and enjoy it greatly, in the spirit in which it's intended. Provides much joy, and reminiscence to me. The day a scalper gets hold of my 50 years of treasures is the day that I shoot someone. I'd rather destroy it or give it away all for free to someone who will really use it and enjoy it, not resell it for profit.

I disagree with most of this. The problem with collecting anything "vintage" is that supply can only decrease. If the hobby becomes popular and demand increases, then the problem is compounded. This is where we are at with retrocomputing/retrogaming. Most "scalpers" are just sellers filling a demand created by aging enthusiasts with disposable income who want something that is continually decreasing in quantity.

I wish we could still get all this stuff dirt cheap but that's not how economics works. It's easy to blame the sellers, but anything that contributes to the popularity of the hobby is increasing item demand, which results in price increases. That includes this forum, youtube channels, etc. Somebody does a retro video card benchmark and now there is more demand for the card at the top. There are only so many in existence. Average price on ebay increases.

Now if your hobby isn't collecting old crap, you're not affected by this. Nobody is scalping paint or hiking boots. So I wouldn't say most hobbies aren't viable. Even retrocomputing can still be very affordable, if you aren't trying to collect popular/rare stuff. You don't need to have a boxed copy of Doom to play Doom.

When we die, all this stuff is either going to end up in the trash or in the hands of a "scalper." Even if you give it all away to a friend, and he gives it all away, and he gives it away...eventually somebody will be selling it for market value, if it's worth anything.

Reply 510 of 617, by Shreddoc

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For the cost of one ordinary (modern) computer, you can put together a modest retro hoard. I'm not sure that state of affairs really warrants much complaining about.

As for the economics, I also don't see the problem. The exact same global economic rules which drive all markets, also drive the retro computing market. Economics 101 explains it all - no conspiracies necessary.

The mistake some people make is thinking that retro computing is some special isolated world where different rules apply.

Nonetheless, threads like this are always going to contain an element of price complaints, gouging conspiracies and other such guffery, so there's little point coming into such an explicitly named thread and going all roll-eye-y over others rants and quibbles. Containing all such guff in the one thread is the whole point.

Reply 511 of 617, by badmojo

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Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-19, 05:03:

...so there's little point coming into such an explicitly named thread and going all roll-eye-y over others rants and quibbles. Containing all such guff in the one thread is the whole point.

Good natured discussion around prices and rarity is fun - prices really have gone up a lot in recent years. But rabid ranting about "scalpers and youtubers and the cashed up fools who support them" is toxic and discourages quality forum members from sharing their retro adventures. Allow it in one thread and it'll spread to others.

Life? Don't talk to me about life.

Reply 512 of 617, by Shreddoc

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badmojo wrote on 2022-05-19, 06:03:
Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-19, 05:03:

...so there's little point coming into such an explicitly named thread and going all roll-eye-y over others rants and quibbles. Containing all such guff in the one thread is the whole point.

Good natured discussion around prices and rarity is fun - prices really have gone up a lot in recent years. But rabid ranting about "scalpers and youtubers and the cashed up fools who support them" is toxic and discourages quality forum members from sharing their retro adventures. Allow it in one thread and it'll spread to others.

Guess I was defending my own postings as opposed to anyone else's.

The scalpers/YT/fools narrative is but a small part of the scene, and not one I'm particularly fussed about. Advertising has always been Advertising. Fools have always been Fools. Retro Computing has no greater or lesser prevalence of either, than any other given area of interest.

If someone thinks a vastly changed market over 50 years is a travesty worthy of refusing to participate in the market, then they may have at it. I grant you, it's not something I particularly love to hear either - I don't agree with it. Because if it applies to R.C., then it applies to everything. Thus I look forward to abovedude giving away his house, car, and other possessions, on principle....

Reply 513 of 617, by gerry

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It's a global market now, more even than in 2000. Someone selling a voodoo card is not only holding something of increasing rarity, but also something featured on various youtube and other media - stoking interest - and is able (if patient) to hold out for that 1 buyer in the world willing to spend however many 100's or more on it

and i don't really care. Almost any experience worth having on a PC can be done with cheap components and any that are missed, well there is so much else to do and see i genuinely don't think I'm missing out

Reply 514 of 617, by badmojo

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Shreddoc wrote on 2022-05-19, 08:56:

Thus I look forward to abovedude giving away his house, car, and other possessions, on principle....

Ha indeed. And abovedude apparently has all of the hardware he could ever need because of his awesome cleverness at getting into the hobby 50 years ago so doesn't need to pay the absurd contemporary prices anyway, and yet is still outraged.

I guess some folks just like being outraged.

Life? Don't talk to me about life.

Reply 515 of 617, by maxtherabbit

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zyzzle wrote on 2022-05-19, 01:32:

I'd rather destroy it or give it away all for free to someone who will really use it and enjoy it, not resell it for profit.

>claims to be greatly invested in retro hardware being preserved and enjoyed
>would prefer its irrevocable destruction to allowing someone to make money on it

yeah ok bro

Reply 516 of 617, by libby

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I already made a lengthy series of posts shooting abovedude down on page 14 but I gotta say, I doubt almost anyone here is going to be onboard with the whole "I'd destroy it before I let it be sold" mentality

it's STUFF. you can't take it with you when you die. if it has sentimental value to you, that's okay, but that dies with you. to say you'd see it destroyed before seeing someone somehow make some money selling it, is just as greedy as someone in the hobby for no purpose other than to make money. it's not greed for profit, it's greed for control.

it's your stuff and you can obviously do whatever you want with it, but nobody's going to view you as a hero if your principle would be to destroy it - thus just increasing the scarcity of those items in the same way that would occur if someone unaware of their value or collectability ignorantly sent the whole lot to the dump to free up space.

Reply 517 of 617, by badmojo

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feipoa wrote on 2022-05-18, 11:27:

Acer Magic S23A
$130? Wow! Are these cards any good?

Yes these are good cards IMO. Well made, great sounding WSS / SB Pro and that onboard GM chipset rocks. If it had a decent OPL3 implementation it would be perfect.

Life? Don't talk to me about life.

Reply 518 of 617, by Joakim

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Most enthusiasts are just being too particular and want to buy cheap rare hardware online instead of looking at garage sales and things like that. With patience you can still find cool retro hardware.

Thing is, that you can build an ok DOS machine from a pentium 4 and a DOS compatible PCI sound card for a total <50$, no problem. And that machine is usable, but not a collectible (yet).

Reply 519 of 617, by TrashPanda

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Joakim wrote on 2022-05-21, 07:20:

Most enthusiasts are just being too particular and want to buy cheap rare hardware online instead of looking at garage sales and things like that. With patience you can still find cool retro hardware.

Thing is, that you can build an ok DOS machine from a pentium 4 and a DOS compatible PCI sound card for a total <50$, no problem. And that machine is usable, but not a collectible (yet).

There is a reason why I have a huge Socket 775/771 collection, a can see a few years from now it'll be all the rage in the retro arena and I wont have to buy any of it.

Oh noes, the cap let the shmooo out 😁