FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby cde » 2019-10-16 @ 09:28

CBM wrote:this is why I only buy games on GOG now, plus they are DRM free!

I still have a crazy amount of steam games, and the ones that I can not get on GOG I will play on steam until such time they decide it is okay to rip me off by removing one or more paid games!


Absolutely, I now also buy my games on GOG and use their offline installers.

Regarding Steam games, I use this to backup and play them:

* install Steam on a removable disk
* shift+click to select and install all games
* move the steamapps folder and *.acf outside of the Steam folder, uninstall Steam
* for each game in steamapps:
- optionally remove the Steam DRM with Steamless (available on github)
- create a steam_appid.txt with the help of the game's acf file (containing just the id)
- replace the steam_api dll with Goldberg emulator (also on github)
- optionally create steam_interfaces.txt files for games before 2016


This has worked very well for pretty much all the games I've tried. Only game that failed to launch is Celeste.

EDIT: Celeste just needed the XNA redist installed.
Last edited by cde on 2019-10-18 @ 11:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby realnc » 2019-10-16 @ 11:39

Scali wrote:The catch is in the part of "paid for".
You didn't pay for ownership of the games, you paid for a license to use it. That license, by its terms, is not indefinite.

According to Valve's defense in the lawsuit they lost in France about being able to resell Steam games, they do sell non-expiring licenses to games. Which is what "buying a game" means to begin with. When you buy, say, a game on CD, you don't own the game now. You only own a perpetual license to use that copy of the game.

It seems Valve wants to have its cake and eat it too.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Scali » 2019-10-16 @ 11:46

realnc wrote:"buying a game"


That's the thing...
Do you buy a game, or do you buy a license to a game?

I'm pretty sure that the latter is easy to defend in court.
The former would imply that you buy "the game" in the broad sense of the word: you obtain all rights to the game, including copyright, intellectual property etc. That is clearly not what Valve is selling.
You always buy a license to use 1 (one) copy of the game.

In theory that license may be non-expiring, but in practice it can expire because of various reasons, eg:
1) Steam no longer works after some OS update
2) The game no longer works after an OS/driver/hardware/whatver update
3) The game no longer works after a game update
4) Steam servers are shut down
5) The game is no longer hosted on the Steam servers, and you do not have a local copy, so you canot obtain a copy of the game, even though the license is still valid

Etc.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby realnc » 2019-10-16 @ 14:03

Scali wrote:That's the thing...
Do you buy a game, or do you buy a license to a game?

I'm pretty sure that the latter is easy to defend in court.

This is what caused Valve to lose the lawsuit. They stated "we don't sell games, we sell licenses". The judge then basically said "well, that's what selling a game is" and ruled against Valve. It's the same with everything that constitutes intellectual property, really. A music album on CD is a digital good (binary information stored on a piece of plastic.) When you buy a CD, you buy a license to use a single copy of the music. Common sense would even tell you that, you don't have to be a lawyer. Valve tried to disagree and lost. For now, at least - don't forget Valve has infinite money and political lobbying power.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Rekrul » 2019-10-16 @ 16:58

Scali wrote:
Rekrul wrote:Even if there is such a clause in the EULA, I don't see how it can be legal.


I do.
The catch is in the part of "paid for".
You didn't pay for ownership of the games, you paid for a license to use it. That license, by its terms, is not indefinite.

So there's a clause in the EULA that says that they can terminate your right to play the games at any time for any reason, even if you've done nothing wrong?

I don't see how that can be legal either. How can you make a contract where one side can just decide to break it for no valid reason?

"For one lump sum, Planet Fitness will provide you with a membership to our facilities. Said membership will last until we decide to no longer honor it, at which point, we will kick you out, even though you haven't done anything wrong."

Somehow I don't think that would fly.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Scali » 2019-10-16 @ 17:21

Rekrul wrote:So there's a clause in the EULA that says that they can terminate your right to play the games at any time for any reason, even if you've done nothing wrong?


No, not really.
Just that they don't have to do everything to make sure you can keep playing your game forever. See my post above.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Rekrul » 2019-10-16 @ 18:00

Scali wrote:In theory that license may be non-expiring, but in practice it can expire because of various reasons, eg:
1) Steam no longer works after some OS update
2) The game no longer works after an OS/driver/hardware/whatver update

Those wouldn't be Valve's fault. If you have a perpetual license to rent and drive a car, it's not their fault if you lose your eyesight and can no longer drive.

Scali wrote:3) The game no longer works after a game update

That would be the fault of whatever company created the game and the update.

Scali wrote:4) Steam servers are shut down

This one would be Valve's fault. If they're selling non-expiring licenses, they should have a plan in place for people to be able to play the single-player components of the games without Steam. And no, I don't trust the "promise" that Valve supposedly made that they would release some kind of a patch if Steam ever shuts down. I'd further argue that tying the multi-player component of these games to Steam isn't the best idea. There should be an option to play on other servers, or even make a direct connection to other players through an IP address. You know, how things used to be before Steam was universally declared the greatest thing to ever happen to games in the entire history of the universe.

Scali wrote:5) The game is no longer hosted on the Steam servers, and you do not have a local copy, so you canot obtain a copy of the game, even though the license is still valid

This would also be Valve's fault. Their agreements with the game developers/publishers/whatever should include a clause that they are allowed to provide copies of the game to verified purchasers, even if the game has been withdrawn from general sale on Steam. The fact they don't do this shows that they don't really care for their customers. Would some companies object to this and refuse to sell their games through Steam? Probably, but if Valve really cared about their users, they'd hold their ground.

Of course if Valve really cared about their customers, they'd get off their asses and make Half-Life 3 or even Episode 3. You know, the game that fans have been begging for, for over a decade now...
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby realnc » 2019-10-16 @ 18:24

Scali wrote:No, not really.
Just that they don't have to do everything to make sure you can keep playing your game forever. See my post above.

Same goes for games on disc, actually. I have Duke Nukem 3D in a box, but I don't think 3D Realms is responsible for keeping it working forever. I'm pretty sure that if I insert the CD in my Windows 10 machine and it doesn't work, I can't go sue 3D Realms.

But I guess Valve can't use that defense, since then they would have to admit that digital, online-only goods are more similar to physical ones than they want to admit :-D
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Scali » 2019-10-16 @ 18:49

realnc wrote:Same goes for games on disc, actually. I have Duke Nukem 3D in a box, but I don't think 3D Realms is responsible for keeping it working forever. I'm pretty sure that if I insert the CD in my Windows 10 machine and it doesn't work, I can't go sue 3D Realms.


Yea, but Steam goes a step further.
For example, my copy of Half Life used to play fine on my Pentium Pro with Windows 98.
But when I install it now, the first thing Steam does is download the latest version, which is not compatible with Windows 98.
So I can't get the game working anymore.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby schmatzler » 2019-10-16 @ 19:07

CBM wrote:I too was unable to run Fallout 3 on windows 10 using Steam... but when I decided to buy Fallout 3 on GOG, then it worked without any issues (the GOG version, the steam version has never worked on any of my systems)!


From the back of my head, I think the Steam version is completely unpatched and doesn't run with "high" amounts of RAM (>4GB). There's also a mod that catches some engine faults and reduces crashes, which is not implemented in the Steam version.

GOG has all of that. It's very sad that a lot of Steam games are mostly unpatched.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Rekrul » 2019-10-16 @ 19:42

Scali wrote:Yea, but Steam goes a step further.
For example, my copy of Half Life used to play fine on my Pentium Pro with Windows 98.
But when I install it now, the first thing Steam does is download the latest version, which is not compatible with Windows 98.
So I can't get the game working anymore.

I have the retail Half-Life GOTY edition which also includes Opposing Force and Counterstrike and I could be wrong, but I could swear that when I installed the game years ago, I blocked Steam from going online and the game still worked fine. In fact, I want to say that back then, Steam didn't even have to be running in order to play the single-player game, although I'm not 100% sure about that. I got the impression that Steam was something you only needed if you wanted to play online.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby DosFreak » 2019-10-16 @ 21:18

Steam Half-Life v1.1.2.2 b4554 June 15, 2009 and below works without Steam as long as you use the command line switch hl.exe -steam -game "folder"

Versions above require Steam and XP+ since they use SDL2. Only way around is to use a Steam emulator such as SmartSteamEmu and Blackwingcat patch for 2000 (or possibly the unofficial SDL 2.0.5 for 2000) or Kernelex for 98 and me.

Not much point in using the newer versions on less than XP though since there isn't much of a diff from b4454. When valve ported the games to Linux they dropped less than XP compatibility due to the switch to SDL2.

It's possible smartsteamemu can work on 98 and ME with kernelex as long as you don't use the GUI. The GUI requires .NET 4.0 so only 2000+.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Srandista » 2019-10-16 @ 21:20

Steam couldn't give a damn about WON version installed from CD. I have boxed version of HL (first edition, not even GOTY) and it's working perfectly on 98, and the game doesn't know anything about Steam whatsoever...

And also, Windows 98 is not supported by anyone at this point... Steam itself can't be run on 98 too, so moaning about non-existing Win 98 compatible HL on Steam is kinda weird... It's not like HL for 98 isn't available by other means...
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby sliderider » 2019-10-30 @ 12:58

realnc wrote:
Scali wrote:That's the thing...
Do you buy a game, or do you buy a license to a game?

I'm pretty sure that the latter is easy to defend in court.

This is what caused Valve to lose the lawsuit. They stated "we don't sell games, we sell licenses". The judge then basically said "well, that's what selling a game is" and ruled against Valve. It's the same with everything that constitutes intellectual property, really. A music album on CD is a digital good (binary information stored on a piece of plastic.) When you buy a CD, you buy a license to use a single copy of the music. Common sense would even tell you that, you don't have to be a lawyer. Valve tried to disagree and lost. For now, at least - don't forget Valve has infinite money and political lobbying power.



So does this mean if you buy a used, physical copy of a game that you can force Valve to let you register the key that comes with the game to your account?
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby Scali » 2019-10-30 @ 13:08

sliderider wrote:So does this mean if you buy a used, physical copy of a game that you can force Valve to let you register the key that comes with the game to your account?


No, because then a judge would first have to rule that the license is transferable. I don't think that has happened yet.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby sliderider » 2019-10-30 @ 13:21

Scali wrote:
sliderider wrote:So does this mean if you buy a used, physical copy of a game that you can force Valve to let you register the key that comes with the game to your account?


No, because then a judge would first have to rule that the license is transferable. I don't think that has happened yet.


It's happened in France.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190 ... ught.shtml

"According to the French gaming site Numerama, as well as UFC-Que Choisir itself, the High Court of Paris ruled in UFC-Que Choisir’s favor earlier this week. If Valve’s appeal fails, this ruling stands to have ramifications not just in France, but across the European Union. Specifically, the court didn’t find Valve’s defense that Steam is a subscription service compelling. As a result, the court declared that users should be allowed to resell Steam games."

This applies to digital games, but I don't see why physical copies of games sold with a Steam activation key wouldn't also be covered. Rulings from courts in other countries are frequently cited in US courts, so I don't see why someone might not bring a similar suit in the US/Canada or other jurisdictions using this ruling in support of their case.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby appiah4 » 2019-10-30 @ 14:09

Not very likely.
EU Courts: Consumer is always right.
US Courts: Fuck the consumer. Unless it's a big enough class action suit that has caused enough of a ruckuss to make us have to look like we give a shit.
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Re: FYI: Steam drops XP/Vista in 2019

Postby The Serpent Rider » 2019-12-04 @ 22:24

This applies to digital games, but I don't see why physical copies of games sold with a Steam activation key wouldn't also be covered.

It won't work this easy. For that to work, the original owner must have capabilities to deactivate retail (CD key) games from an account, similar to Windows retail deactivation. And there're more troubles with DLC and account/VAC/other bans.
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