carlostex wrote on 2020-07-21, 15:35:

I think it sounds beautiful, of course the main melody line is missing because of the 3 voice limitation. I often wonder if a "smarter" driver could eventually make that limitation less obvious but it seems something very complicated to do.

If Innovation SSI support ever happens for Planet X3 it would be the best sounding game with SID for DOS for sure.

Yep - music which is composed with the channel-limitation in mind will always sound better than a conversion. Something composed specifically for the SID would be even better, of course.

My impression is that sourcing a soundtrack for the SID would not even be the biggest problem.
I'm sure that someone out there would happily take care of a manual conversion, should the need arise.
The biggest obstacle, however, would remain: It's disk space.

There's the General MIDI soundtrack, the MT-32 soundtrack and the intro sequence with pictures and text, that all already exist, but didn't make it onto the disk.
The many video modes are only possible, because they make excessive use of load-time reformatting, table look-ups etc. to make the most of what's already there.
Maybe it's possible to derive the CGA composite artwork from the Tandy artwork at load-time, as well. That would free up approximately 40 kilobytes.
One could also try to merge the GM and MT-32 soundtracks and to take care of the differences at load-time or even during playback.

Another sensible space saving measure would be a unified binary for all video modes.
The thing is that all the different variants of the code base (CGA, VGA, EGA, ATI-GS) have to be reintegrated, anyway, because their separate existence has rendered the code base almost unmaintainable.
There's currently exploration work in that field.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-21, 17:46:

Maybe it's possible to derive the CGA composite artwork from the Tandy artwork at load-time, as well. That would free up approximately 40 kilobytes.

If a 1:1 mapping of the colors would work, then that should be an easy win. Although I'd do it the other way around, i.e. make Tandy mode use the CGA composite artwork, and just rearrange the 16-color Tandy palette as required... no time-consuming data conversions needed.

There's no exact 1:1 mapping, because the Tandy artwork has apparently been derived from the CGA composite artwork, manually.
But with a bit of luck a 1:1 mapping might not look significantly worse.
I'd rather derive the composite artwork from the Tandy artwork, because the four different color carrier phase offsets found in CGA clone cards would make a LUT necessary, anyway.

It's also a pity that everything but CGA has been added as an afterthought.
The various variants of the code base combined contain support for virtually every kind video memory layout:

• 1, 2, 4 and 8 bits per pixel
• bit planes (EGA), packed bits (Tandy) and a mixture (Plantronics)
• linear buffer (VGA) and 2x (CGA), 3x (tweaked Hercules) and 4x (ATI GS) interleaving
• 8, 16 or 32 columns per tile
• 16 or 24 rows per tile

If the code base allowed for arbitrary combinations of the above, Planet X3 could easily support almost every odd video mode under the sun.
The reintegration of the different engine variants into a unified executable might be an important step in that direction, though.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-21, 17:46:

My impression is that sourcing a soundtrack for the SID would not even be the biggest problem.
I'm sure that someone out there would happily take care of a manual conversion, should the need arise.
The biggest obstacle, however, would remain: It's disk space.

Hi, I think you're right. When I used to play SID files on PC using SIDPlay, I noticed that some files were rather large.

That makes me wonder, if there is a non-standard floppy format with more capacity that could be used.
XDF is supported by IBM DOS 7, but not DOS 2.11 or whatever the Tandy 1000 uses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Extended_Density_Format

Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-21, 22:07:

That makes me wonder, if there is a non-standard floppy format with more capacity that could be used.
XDF is supported by IBM DOS 7, but not DOS 2.11 or whatever the Tandy 1000 uses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Extended_Density_Format

XDF appears to extend High Density disk formats, only. If we had HD disks, space wouldn't be much of an issue.
The compatibility requirements limit us to DD disks, though. That means that we have to make do with 720KiB and 360KiB disks.
Additional audio hardware support would therefore most likely have to rely on automated conversion either at load-time or during playback.
Even the MIDI data would probably have to be supplied on an extra disk (or rather an extra disk image).

The most viable options would be:

• 360KiB disk with most CGA artwork, the three basic soundtracks and a unified executable (ditching CGA composite would free space for the missing maps, VGA artwork would require a second 360KiB disk, no MIDI files, no intro)
• 720KiB disk with most stuff, secondary disk with additional goodies like MIDI and intro graphics
• 1440KiB disk with the full package

The above blindly assumes that there will be a unified executable. Whether that assumption ever comes true depends on how much time I or other people can invest in the necessary refactoring.
It would certainly be desirable, because it would make a whole bunch of additional video modes possible, but a lot of work would have to be done to get there.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-22, 11:26:

XDF appears to extend High Density disk formats, only. If we had HD disks, space wouldn't be much of an issue. The compatibility […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-21, 22:07:

That makes me wonder, if there is a non-standard floppy format with more capacity that could be used.
XDF is supported by IBM DOS 7, but not DOS 2.11 or whatever the Tandy 1000 uses.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Extended_Density_Format

XDF appears to extend High Density disk formats, only. If we had HD disks, space wouldn't be much of an issue.
The compatibility requirements limit us to DD disks, though. That means that we have to make do with 720KiB and 360KiB disks.
Additional audio hardware support would therefore most likely have to rely on automated conversion either at load-time or during playback.
Even the MIDI data would probably have to be supplied on an extra disk (or rather an extra disk image).

Hi, thanks for your reply, Benedikt! 😀
What I wrote was just an idea (I was thinking out loud)..
So maybe the other programs, like FDFORMAT/2M *could* be used once disk space gets very critical (in case the game itself evolves/becomes larger).
An article at Wikipedia has a chart that hints that FDFORMAT 1.8 can make 820KB available on a 3.5" DD disk, and even more so with that 2MGUI software..
However, especially the latter uses tricks (sector sliding, disk boost etc) that likely requie an AT style floppy controller (due to higher bandwith etc),
so Tandy 1000 and USB floppy drives will be out. Which is bad and contradicts the whole idea. 🙁
Again, I was just thinking out loud again. 😅 It's no feature request.
The addons/extended feature requests that had been discussed surely would need a few hundreds KBs/a few MBs anyway, I'm afraid.
So it would be perhaps better not to squeeze a few more KBs out of the DD disk (speaking under correction).

Edit: Your idea #2 (an addon disk) would perhaps be the most friendly idea, since Tandy 1000 or XT users can't read HD disks.
Anyway, it's just my current opinion. Maybe I forgot something vital also (Edit: Having no 5.25" disks included would be sad). 😅

VileR wrote on 2020-07-10, 00:30:

I don't know - the Amstrad PC1512 was much more common and less exotic than Plantronics video. Although I suspect that their re […]
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Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-07, 12:28:

So except for exotic video modes, such as Amstrad/Schneider PC1512, Olivetti M24, BBC Master 512, Sanyo MBC 555 , IBM PGC, 8514/A, TIGA and Mindset graphics
the game virtually covers all types of old video hardware.

I don't know - the Amstrad PC1512 was much more common and less exotic than Plantronics video. Although I suspect that their respective graphics modes were almost equally under-used, except in things like GEM, paint packages, and such.

Machines like the Master 512, the Sanyo MBC-555, or the Mindset were only semi-compatible with the PC... so the game would probably need more extensive rewrites than just graphics code to run on those things.
If you're already including that sort of stuff, then why not ACT Apricots, FM-Towns, NEC APC III / PC-9801, Philips :YES, Tandy 2000, and so on 😉

But even in the "100% compatible" world, there's still a much much longer list of exotic hardware that one could theoretically support... Cordata (Corona Data System's) early monochrome 640x300 and 640x400 modes, the Sperry HT/PC's "super hi-res" 640x400 graphics, the Tecmar Graphics Master, Quadram's QuadColor I/II, various virtually-unused "super EGA" card-specific modes, and even IBM's own XGA/XGA-2, 'Image Adapter/A', or the Japanese PS/55.
So covering all types of old video hardware is an impossible mission - even Moraffware barely scratched the surface with their infamous start-up menus. 😁

The reason behind the inclusion of Plantronics rather than PC1512 support is trivial: A Plantronics compatible system is sitting on my desk!

Otherwise, adding support for the PC1512's 640x200x16 mode would be really easy, because it is technologically half way between 640x200x2 CGA and 640x200x16 EGA, both of which are supported.
The main obstacle is that the code base does not currently support selecting video memory layouts or drawing routines at run-time, which means that every new combination of a video memory layout and certain drawing code results in a fork of the code base.
Right now, three such forks – and therefore four branches – exist and this situation has made the code borderline unmaintainable.
As soon as that situation is resolved, nothing really blocks the inclusion of that mode.

Conveniently, the 640x200x16 mode of the Olivetti M24 (with graphics expansion board) has exactly the same memory layout and would merely need different bitplane switching code.
The same applies to the 640x200x16 mode of the Sigma Designs Color 400.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-23, 15:38:

Conveniently, the 640x200x16 mode of the Olivetti M24 (with graphics expansion board) has exactly the same memory layout and would merely need different bitplane switching code.
The same applies to the 640x200x16 mode of the Sigma Designs Color 400.

That's cool, I didn't know that. So far, I've only tinkered with 640x400x1 mode,
since it is an available mode in Quick Basic and supported by PCem..
The memory layout is very simple also.
Re: Olivetti/Logabax/AT&T/Toshiba 640x400 hi-res graphics mode

That being said, I haven't really tried it on real hardware, though. 😅
Still have to get my hands on one of these old Toshiba laptops with CGA or an Atari with PC emulator board.
Or a real M24, so I could also test 640x200x16 in all its glory. ^^

Jo22 wrote on 2020-07-24, 23:01:

Or a real M24, so I could also test 640x200x16 in all its glory. ^^

Provided that you get your hands on one of those ultra rare expansion boards, as well. I believe MobyGamer managed to snatch one of them, so there would be a chance to test it on real hardware.
I, personally, have never even seen an M24 – or a PC1512 for that matter – in real life.

I have a PC1512.
The PC1512 was my first PC.
Mobygamer also just got an M24.

I'm aware of your PC 1512. You showed it off in a bunch of videos, didn't you?

Incidentally, this thread might also be a good place to announce the release of Planet X3's latest package of updated executables:

The August 2020 update pack "PX3AUG20.ZIP" contains accumulated bug fixes from the past 15 months, support for the TNDLPT audio device, an alternative grayscale CGA mode and for the first time a beta version of the combined ATI Graphics Solution + medium-resolution Tandy engine.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-23, 15:38:

Conveniently, the 640x200x16 mode of the Olivetti M24 (with graphics expansion board) has exactly the same memory layout and would merely need different bitplane switching code.

Ah yes, the mythical Display Enhancement Board (DEB). That thing has always been Unobtainium to me. I've been looking for that card for a long time.

I'm curious - how hard would it be to create an "unlicensed" clone of the board? 😉
Does the board contain some custom chips, GALs/PALs etc?

digger wrote on 2020-08-30, 15:38:

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-23, 15:38:

Conveniently, the 640x200x16 mode of the Olivetti M24 (with graphics expansion board) has exactly the same memory layout and would merely need different bitplane switching code.

Ah yes, the mythical Display Enhancement Board (DEB). That thing has always been Unobtainium to me. I've been looking for that card for a long time.

Taking pictures and cloning the board would be an option. I'd be surprised if there is considerably more than RAM, ROM and standard logic on there. (And the CRTC, obviously!)
Planet X3 in the 620x200 16-color video mode – if/when support gets added – should run just fast enough.
It would be nice to know whether the hardware supports a 320x200 16-color mode, too, because it would run twice as fast.
The 320x200 16-color mode of the aforementioned Sigma Color 400 looks quite similar to Plantronics mode.

(More info on the DEB on vcfed)

Benedikt wrote on 2020-08-30, 19:30:

Taking pictures and cloning the board would be an option. I'd be surprised if there is considerably more than RAM, ROM and stand […]
Show full quote

digger wrote on 2020-08-30, 15:38:

Benedikt wrote on 2020-07-23, 15:38:

Conveniently, the 640x200x16 mode of the Olivetti M24 (with graphics expansion board) has exactly the same memory layout and would merely need different bitplane switching code.

Ah yes, the mythical Display Enhancement Board (DEB). That thing has always been Unobtainium to me. I've been looking for that card for a long time.

Taking pictures and cloning the board would be an option. I'd be surprised if there is considerably more than RAM, ROM and standard logic on there. (And the CRTC, obviously!)
Planet X3 in the 620x200 16-color video mode – if/when support gets added – should run just fast enough.
It would be nice to know whether the hardware supports a 320x200 16-color mode, too, because it would run twice as fast.
The 320x200 16-color mode of the aforementioned Sigma Color 400 looks quite similar to Plantronics mode.

(More info on the DEB on vcfed)

Interesting! I never knew that the DEB had its own video output connector.

And yeah, it would be really cool if somebody could clone one, but that is way beyond my expertise, I'm afraid. I'd definitely buy one though, if the price of such reproductions wouldn't be too crazy. 🙂

digger wrote on 2020-08-31, 16:15:

Interesting! I never knew that the DEB had its own video output connector.

And yeah, it would be really cool if somebody could clone one, but that is way beyond my expertise, I'm afraid. I'd definitely buy one though, if the price of such reproductions wouldn't be too crazy. 🙂

That would only be feasible with an X-ray of the board and images of all the different PALs and the ROM. (And obviously only for someone who has an M24/6300.)
I'd also limit potential support in Planet X3 to the basic 640x200 mode without fancy extras, i.e. a PC1512 port with different bank switching, because everything else is just not worth the effort.
After all, we only know about one such board.

Herne Maxi Disk will format a 360kb Fisk to around 400k and it’s fully doscompatible

A custom disk format for the 5¼ inch disks would actually be a feasible option, because the 5¼ inch disks cannot and therefore do not have to work with USB drives.
However, a two-disk solution with some sort of fail-over mechanism in the file loader would be even more pragmatic, because it would work with the full distribution without anything stripped out.
Production is no longer a problem, because this is all aftermarket, anyway.

Benedikt wrote on 2020-08-31, 16:55:

That would only be feasible with an X-ray of the board and images of all the different PALs and the ROM. (And obviously only for […]
Show full quote

digger wrote on 2020-08-31, 16:15:

Interesting! I never knew that the DEB had its own video output connector.

And yeah, it would be really cool if somebody could clone one, but that is way beyond my expertise, I'm afraid. I'd definitely buy one though, if the price of such reproductions wouldn't be too crazy. 🙂

That would only be feasible with an X-ray of the board and images of all the different PALs and the ROM. (And obviously only for someone who has an M24/6300.)
I'd also limit potential support in Planet X3 to the basic 640x200 mode without fancy extras, i.e. a PC1512 port with different bank switching, because everything else is just not worth the effort.
After all, we only know about one such board.

Yeah, I admit that this has veered a bit off-topic. I agree that the DEB is way too obscure a device to be adding support for in a game like Planet X3. It'd be awesome to get my hands on a working DEB and get it to run in an M24, let alone having it run DOS games that support its graphics capabilities natively. Perhaps some day. 😊

It's exciting enough that Planet X3 actually is adding out-of-the-box support for these 16-color CGA+ cards that never saw any support back in the DOS gaming era. It's nice to finally seem them be utilized to their fullest potential in a game.