win 10 is just okay. I use it because I play DX12 games. I've used a script to remove all the telemetry and useless programs, and it looks okay on the surface, but I have no clue if it actually did disable the tracking.

robertmo wrote:

I can boot into Win 7. Which I hate nowadays... because it needs drivers updates, Windows updates, etc... 😀

I have no idea how you were using Win7, but it was obviously wrong. There are far fewer updates coming into Win7 than Win10, be it drivers, or OS updates.

luckybob wrote:

I've used a script to remove all the telemetry and useless programs, and it looks okay on the surface, but I have no clue if it actually did disable the tracking.

I think there was far less tracking in the first place that some people thought. Telemetry ≠ tracking.

The major problems I have with Windows 10 are the updates. Even on the semi-annual update path, I get random stuff that just ceases to function. The latest was wired/wireless autoconfig services -- I actually had to do a full re-install of the OS to get DHCP to pull an IP address on wired networks, and be able to see wireless access points again. Then the next updates I installed killed it again. Even a system restore didn't repair the problem. I ended up uninstalling Windows 10 and then installing Windows 8.1 because it got so frustrating. (this happened on both my Z270 platform, and X99 platform)

The new OS has no respect for the user, IMHO; it doesnt even care to display a detailed error code. :-(
In the past, I had no trouble using any Windows version. I even kind of liked Vista and Me and saw their (few) positive aspects.

X (not even 8.x, which only was nasty but didn't feel like a threat yet) was the first one that triggered my conscience
and made me thoughtful about computer ethics, privacy an so on.
If SkyNet was real, X would be the ideal candidate through its radical, pervasive, dominating and cloudy nature.

(The only other system I know that widespread would be Minix, since it runs in Intel chipsets.
I can't imagine that it has the same criminal energy, though, ;) )

On the long run, though, there's no way around it, sadly. Even on Linux, you may need it in a cage (VM, as I do) in order to plain understand the
mass of other users (society) or because a given program you have to use is so badly coded that it won't work on WINE (a tax program, Office 365 ?)

Edit: No Offense, though. I tested that OS since the early beta releases were available and it ran most of my programs.
Personally, I think X surely is fine for gaming. Just be careful when using it and take care of you.

Edit: I apologize if my words were a bit to harsh sounding, I didn't mean to troll, though.
I just tried to express my feelings and thoughts honestly. I hope no one feels offended by this.
From what I know, X has (or rather had) the potential to almost divide the Windows community like no prior version before.
(In other forums, especially about games and computing, opinions are either extremely pro or contra.)

Are people really calling it "Windows X" now? Sheesh... I haven't seen Wintel Mac envy since the earliest days of Win 9x.

That said, Windows 10 was the reason I went full Apple. Well, to be fair, it started with a Lenovo laptop and their infamously terrible trackpad. I decided to buy a MacBook Pro just to have a decent computer, and figured I would TRY to use OS X, but would most likely wipe it and go with a Win 10 / Gentoo Linux dual-boot. After setting up Windows 10 for the first time, and having it fail miserably at being an OS, I decided I was just done. OS X, on the other hand, has been great. I have a Win 7 and Gentoo VM, which I use for very specific apps, but 99.9% of everything I do is on OS X now, and I don't miss the BS of Windows Update, and half-baked UIs that constantly rearrange all the control panels...

Just for fun, I tracked down a G4 Cube and a Core 2 Duo Mac Mini, and now have the full OS X line from 10.0 Beta to 10.14. You know how you change the Ethernet settings in 10.0? Apple menu > System Preferences > Network. You know how you change it in 10.14? Apple menu > System Preferences > Network. Now compare the Control Panel from Windows 98 to Windows 10.... But I think the thing I like the best is that, the thing just works. I close the lid and it sleeps. I open the lid and it wakes up. No drama. I don't even think I've rebooted since a week after I installed Sierra. There have been two point releases to the OS since then.

SirNickity wrote:

Are people really calling it "Windows X" now?

No, I think just the OP does.

SirNickity wrote:

That said, Windows 10 was the reason I went full Apple. Well, to be fair, it started with a Lenovo laptop and their infamously terrible trackpad.

Infamously terrible? Which Lenovo laptop was that? I really dig the trackpad on some of the new Thinkpads (Thinkpad 25 / X1 Carbon) - so much that I actually started using it along with the trackpoint (on all my previous laptops shutting the trackpad off in the BIOS was the first thing I did).

In my case, T440p. Lenovo laptops are fairly popular in the enterprise space, so I often run into people who have them as an assigned work laptop. I tend to be curious about hardware and user experiences with it, so I always ask people how they like what they have. Apple people, Surface people, Lenovo people. Anyone, really. What I hear most of the time is, "I really like my Lenovo." So I ask, "Really? I used to have one -- decent machine, but the trackpad was terrible." And almost without exception I hear, "oh.. yeah, the trackpad is insufferable garbage. I just use a mouse. But otherwise it's great!" These days I've gotten into the habit of just asking "has the trackpad gotten any better in recent models?" Usually: "No, it's still terrible."

I know this probably comes across as bias, but I really hope to hear some day that the PC world gets something that is not just good, but on-par with (or, heck, even better than!) Apple's trackpad. I ask everyone I see using a trackpad -- especially multi-touch ones -- how they like it, hoping that there's FINALLY a good touch input device for Windows. I talked to a Surface user the other day who was docked at his desk with what looked like a Microsoft equivalent to the Magic Pad or whatever Apple calls it. So I asked them, "hey cool, is it as good as Apple's?" He said "no way, not even close." *sigh* OK, I guess I'll keep waiting.

On my desk, right now, I have a Lenovo with Windows 7, my MBP, and a Dell with Gentoo. All good tools, and I like having them all. But man, the PC hardware scene could really use a Steve Jobs. I like the variety in PC land, but sometimes you just want something that was designed by a UX fanatic, and I feel like that's lacking.

Good updates for the average joe is being dropped for Win7 next year. And every time I have to use Win10, I get really mad at the UI. No, wait... I get pissed at the UI. I have no idea what is wrong with it. Everything just seems to blend in with each other and I have to really think about how to use it, instead of just using it. It is the first UI that I have ever struggeled this much with, in my entire life. Not even learning Dos, back in the 1980's have been such a PITA.

Hence I use Xubuntu exclusively now. At least here I can see what is what and nothing blends in with each other. And I do not have to think about were to click in order to access something. Like the freaking printer settings.

SirNickity wrote:

In my case, T440p. Lenovo laptops are fairly popular in the enterprise space, so I often run into people who have them as an assigned work laptop. I tend to be curious about hardware and user experiences with it, so I always ask people how they like what they have. Apple people, Surface people, Lenovo people. Anyone, really. What I hear most of the time is, "I really like my Lenovo." So I ask, "Really? I used to have one -- decent machine, but the trackpad was terrible." And almost without exception I hear, "oh.. yeah, the trackpad is insufferable garbage. I just use a mouse. But otherwise it's great!" These days I've gotten into the habit of just asking "has the trackpad gotten any better in recent models?" Usually: "No, it's still terrible."

Lenovo Thinkpads (formerly IBM Thinkpads) are the ones still common in corporate space. On Thinkpads the preferred method of input has always bean the trackpoint; they did not get touchpads until ~2002, and it was almost an afterthought. Many Thinkpads users find the trackpoint to be preferrable to any touchpad, no matter how good (myself among them). If someone uses a Thinkpad and tells you 'the trackpad is garbage; I just use a mouse', then that users just does not know how to use his Thinkpad. It's the trackpoint you are supposed to use. 😀

The T440 generation was actually the worst in terms of pointing devices, since Lenovo integrated the trackpoint buttons into the pad, which worked horribly, both for trackpoint users and touchpad users. It was so horrible that it took them exactly one generation to undo it and bring back the old design.

SirNickity wrote:

I know this probably comes across as bias, but I really hope to hear some day that the PC world gets something that is not just good, but on-par with (or, heck, even better than!) Apple's trackpad. I ask everyone I see using a trackpad -- especially multi-touch ones -- how they like it, hoping that there's FINALLY a good touch input device for Windows. I talked to a Surface user the other day who was docked at his desk with what looked like a Microsoft equivalent to the Magic Pad or whatever Apple calls it. So I asked them, "hey cool, is it as good as Apple's?" He said "no way, not even close." *sigh* OK, I guess I'll keep waiting.

It seems like to you the quality of the trackpad is the most important thing in a laptop. Well, in this case, Apple is still ahead of the pack, however the gap, as far as I can judge, is closing. As I said, the simple fact that I am still using the trackpad on my newest Thinkpads, rather than automatically disabling it, is a testimony to its quality. I don't know who you've been asking, and which laptops they had, but anyone telling you, for instance, that the pad on the latest X1 Carbon is 'insufferable garbage' or that it's not superior to that of old Thinkpads - simply has no clue.

SirNickity wrote:

On my desk, right now, I have a Lenovo with Windows 7, my MBP, and a Dell with Gentoo. All good tools, and I like having them all. But man, the PC hardware scene could really use a Steve Jobs. I like the variety in PC land, but sometimes you just want something that was designed by a UX fanatic, and I feel like that's lacking.

Yeah, I can understand you; choice matters. In PC scene you don't anything UX-oriented like a Mac world, and in the Mac world you are locked in to one design.

brostenen wrote:

Good updates for the average joe is being dropped for Win7 next year. And every time I have to use Win10, I get really mad at the UI. No, wait... I get pissed at the UI. I have no idea what is wrong with it. Everything just seems to blend in with each other and I have to really think about how to use it, instead of just using it. It is the first UI that I have ever struggeled this much with, in my entire life. Not even learning Dos, back in the 1980's have been such a PITA.

I think that one of the reasons I am not so bothered by the Win10 UI, is because I'm accustomed to using keyboard shortcuts and administrator commands, which have not been changed (only augmented) since Win2K really. E.g., no matter how the start menu looks, Win+R brings the 'Run' box, and no matter where the network adapters screen has been buried, ncpa.cpl brings it up immediately; etc.

why aren't y'all using windows 95?!!!!

oeuvre wrote:

why aren't y'all using windows 95?!!!!

Duh! Because Win95 does not have ncpa.cpl or mstsc or netplwiz, or dozens of other self-explanatory commands with names that are impossible to forget!

Why aren't you all installing Classic Start Menu?

Network Connections, Printers and Run are in the default start menu configuration for that.

ZellSF wrote:

Why aren't you all installing Classic Start Menu? Network Connections, Printers and Run are in the default start menu configuration for that.

As a 13-year-old, I would've scoffed at my current self and said "hey, get with the times -- things change, it's not that hard!" As an adult heavily trenched in the IT industry, I can say for sure that teenager-me has no idea what he's talking about. For one, I spent a couple years on a help desk. I'm still a little shocked at how the mere presence of a computer can mystify an otherwise intelligent person, but that is neither here nor there. Many people can't tell you with certainty which version of Windows they're using. (This, coming from an age where the likely answer could be Win98, Win ME, Win 2000, or even Win XP.) I would ask, and get answers like "I'm not sure -- I think it's the new one." I would then ask questions like, "what does it look like while it's loading? Are there clouds, or a white background with squares, or a black background with a bright flag on it?" Still too much to ask. Apparently, people turn on their computer, and immediately go for refreshments. I would imagine things are a little better now with the ubiquity of remote access tools -- but that's assuming the user HAS a connection to the Internet, which as a helpdesk tech for an ISP, was not always the case. (That's why they were calling.) So, those insignificant changes in the path from Desktop to Network control panel translate to very real barricades to getting someone back online quickly and without frustrating either or both people involved. That's just one guy at one helpdesk for one ISP. Multiply that by EVERY service provider, and tack on corporate help desks and public services and everything else. That's a lot of real-world cost to satisfy some punk's urge to shuffle icons around for no benefit whatsoever. It hasn't gotten any easier. No better at all. So what was the point?

I suppose I could hack MY computer to put things back to where I like them, but most of the time when I care -- it's not my computer. Now that I've pretty much skipped the whole Windows 10 thing, I have no idea where things are in the UI. They're not where they used to be, so I can't tell someone what to do based on my experience with Windows 7. I have to fumble through it and figure out where they hid it. It's just ridiculous.

The other things that really bothers me is probably a little more an affront against good taste rather than a practical issue. Both MS and Apple have decided they need to merge the desktop and mobile landscape. OK, well enough. Microsoft did it the worst way possible and everyone hated it. OTOH, Apple has been slowly incorporating the better design elements of their mobile platform into the desktop OS, and it has been a pleasure to have those features added. For e.g., I can pinch, swipe, etc. Changed the way I use a graphical interface. I really miss the multi-finger swipes on other systems -- to change desktops, or get to a page of app icons, or whatever. Does anyone miss Metro? Look, now my Start menu looks like Times Square without the hookers. No, wait, it shows you email previews, so that's covered too.

I don't like being a pretentious Apple guy, but you do start to lose patience for total blunder-bus over in Redmond.

SirNickity wrote:

Many people can't tell you with certainty which version of Windows they're using. (This, coming from an age where the likely answer could be Win98, Win ME, Win 2000, or even Win XP.) I would ask, and get answers like "I'm not sure -- I think it's the new one." I would then ask questions like, "what does it look like while it's loading? Are there clouds, or a white background with squares, or a black background with a bright flag on it?" Still too much to ask.

Strange, I would expect someone working at support to know that there are several easy and documented ways to get the Windows version that work on every release starting from Win95, without asking silly questions about clouds or 'background with squares': hit Win+Pause, or right click 'My Computer' --> Properties, or Start->Run->winver. Take your pick. Of course that does not help if it gets stuck during boot, but then there are also documented ways of bringing up the boot menu / safe mode, whatever.

SirNickity wrote:

So, those insignificant changes in the path from Desktop to Network control panel translate to very real barricades to getting someone back online quickly and without frustrating either or both people involved.

Again, I'd expect support techs to actually know the advanced shortcuts that work on every version of Windows, so that it shouldn't take them (the support techs) any longer to diagnose problems.

SirNickity wrote:

That's a lot of real-world cost to satisfy some punk's urge to shuffle icons around for no benefit whatsoever. It hasn't gotten any easier. No better at all. So what was the point?

Some workflows are easier. You gotta understand that a lot of this is done for the benefit of new users, not existing ones. Someone being first introduced to computing now would, without a doubt, get used to the current way of doing things, and if you put him on a PC running an old OS, he would not find anything, and would have the same complaints as you.

So it's not really that the 13-year old you had no clue. It's just that as we get older, we get entrenched in doing things the way we are used to, and less open to change. It's a natural process for all of us pretty much.

SirNickity wrote:

The other things that really bothers me is probably a little more an affront against good taste rather than a practical issue. Both MS and Apple have decided they need to merge the desktop and mobile landscape. OK, well enough. Microsoft did it the worst way possible and everyone hated it

On that, I probably agree.

SirNickity wrote:

OTOH, Apple has been slowly incorporating the better design elements of their mobile platform into the desktop OS, and it has been a pleasure to have those features added. For e.g., I can pinch, swipe, etc. Changed the way I use a graphical interface. I really miss the multi-finger swipes on other systems -- to change desktops, or get to a page of app icons, or whatever.

Many (most?) of these touch gestures are available in Windows 10. Did you not know? Guess not.

SirNicktity wrote:

Stuff

I asked technical people why they weren't using a solution available to them, at no point did I imply I was talking about the experience of doing tech support, nor do I see the relevance of it.

That said, I find tech support for Windows 10 much easier due to "Reset This PC".

dr_st wrote:

Strange, I would expect someone working at support to know that there are several easy and documented ways to get the Windows version that work on every release starting from Win95, without asking silly questions about clouds or 'background with squares': hit Win+Pause, or right click 'My Computer' --> Properties, or Start->Run->winver. Take your pick. Of course that does not help if it gets stuck during boot, but then there are also documented ways of bringing up the boot menu / safe mode, whatever.

Don't be pretentious, dude. Work a day in tech support and see how each of those suggestions goes over. You're not wrong, there are shortcuts, and sometimes those work. But... sometimes you're working with someone who is visual, so you need to meet them where they're comfortable. The biggest skill in tech support is not your technical knowledge, it's knowing how to communicate with people - particularly those with very little technical knowledge. You start to learn which tactics yield results, and adjust your methods accordingly. It doesn't always work out, because people are different - their experiences are different, their attitudes, their language skills, their perceptions -- all different.

There are a lot of people out there... a LOT... who will not understand what you're saying if you say "right-click My Computer." It sounds ridiculous, but for one, you have to explain to SOME folks what it means to click with the right mouse button. Others, you have to clarify that "My Computer" is an icon that is (potentially) on their desktop. Oh, the Desktop is the screen you see when there aren't any windows open. A window is a screen like your mail or browser or a game.

I used to have to make sure, when helping someone set up their POP3 accounts, that when spelling "mail dot yourisp dot com" we are referring to correspondence, not anatomy.

dr_st wrote:

Again, I'd expect support techs to actually know the advanced shortcuts that work on every version of Windows, so that it shouldn't take them (the support techs) any longer to diagnose problems.

All well and good, and many of us did. But, then you have to know things like, in Windows 98 you will often have to remove all the protocols in the networking panel and add them back because certain programs will botch registry settings to the point that a correctly configured stack just won't work. In XP, the best way was to use netsh to reset it, which... oh boy was that fun. Some people start to panic when you have them type at a CLI. Others just barge ahead and press enter every time you pause. At any rate, there's no Windows-key + NETSH shortcut there. You have to know which OS you're on, its quirks, and how to fix them.

dr_st wrote:

So it's not really that the 13-year old you had no clue. It's just that as we get older, we get entrenched in doing things the way we are used to, and less open to change. It's a natural process for all of us pretty much.

True, but what change? Changes to a UI that don't improve things are unnecessary. OK, I'm a techie, I can adapt. What about the accountant, though? S/he's just trying to put numbers in Excel. Why do THEY have to learn a new UI? What does it do for them that the previous one didn't? How is it making their life better? Nobody reinvents the hammer every three years. It's a refined tool that works well at what it does, and you aren't going to improve it by re-releasing it with the peen hidden behind a slip-down visor.

dr_st wrote:

Many (most?) of these touch gestures are available in Windows 10. Did you not know? Guess not.

I know a lot of them are available now, yes. (Although, this goes back to how I still haven't met a PC trackpad that works as well as Apple's. I'm assuming it's only a matter of time though.) That actually wasn't meant to be a dig at Windows. E.g., I use KDE 5 on a docked laptop with KB and mouse, and when I start coding or I'm logged into a bunch of network equipment and have half a dozen SSH windows open, I miss the gestures I use on OS X. Maybe some day I'll give Unity a shot and see if I'm missing anything.

ZellSF wrote:

I asked technical people why they weren't using a solution available to them, at no point did I imply I was talking about the experience of doing tech support, nor do I see the relevance of it.

Sorry, that was not meant to belittle a perfectly valid suggestion. It doesn't work for me because often when I'm trying to re-acquaint myself with Windows, it's not my computer. That's all I'm saying. Well, that and I don't know why it's necessary to hack the OS back to something usable. The tech support bit is an illustration of why pointless change is not harmless.

SirNickity wrote:

There are a lot of people out there... a LOT... who will not understand what you're saying if you say "right-click My Computer." It sounds ridiculous, but for one, you have to explain to SOME folks what it means to click with the right mouse button. Others, you have to clarify that "My Computer" is an icon that is (potentially) on their desktop. Oh, the Desktop is the screen you see when there aren't any windows open. A window is a screen like your mail or browser or a game.

Oh, for sure! However, these basic skills are something you'll have to teach them anyways if there is any chance of you helping them via the phone; otherwise it's just a lost cause (which sometimes happens). The point was that asking them about their background or the way the boot progress bar looks is not really useful, no matter who you're dealing with.

SirNickity wrote:

At any rate, there's no Windows-key + NETSH shortcut there. You have to know which OS you're on, its quirks, and how to fix them.

True. And here is another nice thing introduced in Windows 8 - the "Win+X / right-click on start" administrator menu. A lot of the useful things (device manager, system, run, command prompt) available right there.

SirNickity wrote:

True, but what change? Changes to a UI that don't improve things are unnecessary. OK, I'm a techie, I can adapt. What about the accountant, though? S/he's just trying to put numbers in Excel. Why do THEY have to learn a new UI? What does it do for them that the previous one didn't? How is it making their life better? Nobody reinvents the hammer every three years. It's a refined tool that works well at what it does, and you aren't going to improve it by re-releasing it with the peen hidden behind a slip-down visor.

The one extreme is to reinvent the hammer every 3 years; the other would be to say that we should all still use hammers from the stone age because they work. Has Microsoft often been too close to the 'every 3 years' extreme? You bet. Is it fair to say that none of their UI changes ever improved things? No way.

I'll give you one well-known example - the ribbon interface that was introduced in Word/Excel/Porerpoint 2007, and slowly crept all over the Office apps as well as core OS UI - there was a lot of backlash from old tech-savvy users that were so used to the menu system that they knew it by heart, and now had to re-learn the interface. But guess what - a lot of the things, especially the commonly needed ones, in the new UI are much more accessible than they used to be with the old one. So, for a new user learning Windows/Office from scratch now - the new way is almost certainly better. As I said - the changes are often to attract new users, not so much as to improve something for existing ones, although I agree that ideally, it should be both because a good UI is good UI; however, I disagree that just because you once made something sub-optimal, you should never be allowed to change/improve it, since people are used to it.

SirNickity wrote:

I know a lot of them are available now, yes. (Although, this goes back to how I still haven't met a PC trackpad that works as well as Apple's. I'm assuming it's only a matter of time though.) That actually wasn't meant to be a dig at Windows.

OK, fair; however, you did bring this up as part of a larger discussion about Microsoft's versus Apple's approaches to UI changes. All I wanted to say is that, as fun and "hip" as it is to bash "the brainless oafs in Redmond" compared to the "geniuses in Cupertino", Microsoft does, from time to time, incorporate good UI in their products.

http://hackles.org/cgi-bin/archives.pl?request=333

dr_st wrote:

The one extreme is to reinvent the hammer every 3 years; the other would be to say that we should all still use hammers from the stone age because they work. Has Microsoft often been too close to the 'every 3 years' extreme? You bet. Is it fair to say that none of their UI changes ever improved things? No way.

I'm reminded of this image: