badmojo wrote:

Agreed, it was the wild west and any advancement was hard fought so even inter-company compatibility was a burden that could break a project. The C128 was compatible with the 64 but from what I've read that was no easy thing - it's basically just 2 computers in the one box.

3 computers in one.... 😉

rasz_pl wrote:

$1K for ~386DX25 performance in 1992, still no HD floppy, emulated slow graphics. You paid full PC price (without monitor) for worse system, what a deal! 😀

Well... Lets calculate...

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/ 1000 in 1992 would be some 1811,85 today.
https://www.valutakurser.dk/ 1811,85 US Dollars today is some 12.126,17 Danish Kroners.

Yes. It was a bit steep, yet you had access to playing doom (not avaliable in 1992), and the complete Amiga software library.
Well... You get the point regarding horsepower. 😉 You got superiour build quality in the Amiga, compared to cheap clones of 1992.
What would an IBM slc2 cost you back then? Unisys? Compaq? And can they do any other platform with a bridge card?

I would say that if you were in a position, in were you wanted the best for home use in 1992, and you wanted
to have access to business software like lotus or word perfect and Windows 3.0 if you wanted to do work from home.
Well... Then buying a bridge board might be the best solution at that time. That if you wanted the most at the highest quality.
Except not wanting two computers. Like if the wife had said no to more than one or you had no room for two or other reasons.

Nobody really wanted two machines, nor had the space for two big box machines.
If you remember that scene from back to the future, were his uncle said "Two television sets! You must be rich".
Well that was how people viewed computers back then.

brostenen wrote:

rasz_pl wrote:

$1K for ~386DX25 performance in 1992, still no HD floppy, emulated slow graphics. You paid full PC price (without monitor) for worse system, what a deal! 😀

Yes. It was a bit steep, yet you had access to playing doom (not avaliable in 1992)

Silently watching doom slideshow at 2-5fps. That 10 fps gameplay from your YT link is with late 1993 US$149 TI 486SXLC 50 and additional ISA VGA card (+ $50? in 1993), all in all delivering average <$1K ~386DX40 speed.

At that point $1300 got you 486SX25, 4MB ram, LB IDE, LB 1MB SVGA, 80MB hdd, actual real HD floppy drive, 14 color monitor and bundled dos/Win3.1 https://books.google.pl/books?id=XNt4ttAFAiwC … ompuadd+centura
add ~$250 if you want same system with DEC/Compaq brand name sticker.

brostenen wrote:

I would say that if you were in a position, in were you wanted the best for home use in 1992, and you wanted
to have access to business software like lotus or word perfect and Windows 3.0 if you wanted to do work from home.
Well... Then buying a bridge board might be the best solution at that time. That if you wanted the most at the highest quality.

nothing says highest quality like shipping computers with capacitors soldered wrong way

brostenen wrote:

Except not wanting two computers. Like if the wife had said no to more than one or you had no room for two or other reasons.

Nobody really wanted two machines, nor had the space for two big box machines.

nobody, except everyone on this forum, people with kids, people who want to work while partner plays on the other one, nobody 😜

brostenen wrote:

If you remember that scene from back to the future, were his uncle said "Two television sets! You must be rich".

that scene was set in the fifties :]

brostenen wrote:

Well that was how people viewed computers back then.

in nineties every well-off teen had own phone, tv and computer/gaming console in his room (US). Owning Amiga 3000 (YT clip) puts you in nice suburbs in 2 car household, that computer cost ~1/3 of brand new Toyota Camry in 1990.

Jo22 wrote:

I think the problem, among others, was, that the price for RAM was still high. At least for the amount required for a proper frame buffer (in colour).

Not only the amount of ram, but also the type of RAM and the speed.
One advantage of the PC architecture of using specific video memory, is that you can use fast/expensive/dualported memory for the video circuit only. System memory can be simpler and cheaper.
However, when your architecture uses shared memory, then all memory has to be the same spec.

Jo22 wrote:

The Atari ST's hi-res mode was monochrome, too.

Yes, and it required a different monitor. That isn't possible in the concept of the MacIntosh, where the monitor is integrated in the system.
Mind you, Apple was mainly inspired by the Xerox Parc system, and they were also high-res B/W, mainly because it suits the idea WYSIWYG on paper. So it could be that Apple didn't even consciously think about b/w vs colour, but just copied what Xerox did.

Jo22 wrote:

But that would have been very stressing for the computer's main processor on the other hand. By going the monochrome route,
it was at least possible to design proper GUIs and do actual work.

The alternative was what the Commodore Amiga did: use custom hardware that can accelerate line drawing, moving content around the screen and such.
But that required a lot of specialized knowledge, which Apple simply didn't have. Their Mac basically had a 'dumb' framebuffer, and rendering was done on the CPU.
Atari did have the knowledge, but the ST was rushed to market, so it didn't receive a blitter and hardware linedrawing until later, in the STe model. Even then its chipset was not as advanced as the Amiga though.
PCs also went the way of hardware blitting and linedrawing in the era of SVGA and 'Windows accelerator' hardware. Without it, they would never have been able to render high-res GUIs at interactive speeds.

rasz_pl wrote:

Silently watching doom slideshow at 2-5fps. That 10 fps gameplay from your YT link is with late 1993 US$149 TI 486SXLC 50 and ad […]
Show full quote

brostenen wrote:

rasz_pl wrote:

$1K for ~386DX25 performance in 1992, still no HD floppy, emulated slow graphics. You paid full PC price (without monitor) for worse system, what a deal! 😀

Yes. It was a bit steep, yet you had access to playing doom (not avaliable in 1992)

Silently watching doom slideshow at 2-5fps. That 10 fps gameplay from your YT link is with late 1993 US$149 TI 486SXLC 50 and additional ISA VGA card (+ $50? in 1993), all in all delivering average <$1K ~386DX40 speed.

At that point $1300 got you 486SX25, 4MB ram, LB IDE, LB 1MB SVGA, 80MB hdd, actual real HD floppy drive, 14 color monitor and bundled dos/Win3.1 https://books.google.pl/books?id=XNt4ttAFAiwC … ompuadd+centura
add ~$250 if you want same system with DEC/Compaq brand name sticker.

brostenen wrote:

I would say that if you were in a position, in were you wanted the best for home use in 1992, and you wanted
to have access to business software like lotus or word perfect and Windows 3.0 if you wanted to do work from home.
Well... Then buying a bridge board might be the best solution at that time. That if you wanted the most at the highest quality.

nothing says highest quality like shipping computers with capacitors soldered wrong way

brostenen wrote:

Except not wanting two computers. Like if the wife had said no to more than one or you had no room for two or other reasons.

Nobody really wanted two machines, nor had the space for two big box machines.

nobody, except everyone on this forum, people with kids, people who want to work while partner plays on the other one, nobody 😜

brostenen wrote:

If you remember that scene from back to the future, were his uncle said "Two television sets! You must be rich".

that scene was set in the fifties :]

brostenen wrote:

Well that was how people viewed computers back then.

in nineties every well-off teen had own phone, tv and computer/gaming console in his room (US). Owning Amiga 3000 (YT clip) puts you in nice suburbs in 2 car household, that computer cost ~1/3 of brand new Toyota Camry in 1990.

It was not untill around 2000 that the masses began to own cell phones, before that it was a status symbol. And it was not until around 2004/05 that people began to have their own personal computer here in Denmark. Before that, it was one computer for each house hold. IF you had the money and interest in owning a computer that is. Only a select few households had computers here in 1992/94 and owning TWO computers? Well... If you bought a computer, then you used it untill it was worn out and owning two? Then you were extremely wealthy. Consoles were not a thing, except for those households, that kids were spoiled and the parents did not have an interest in using a computer at all. You only saw computers and consoles in a household on extreme rare cases.

I guess it was different on other continents.

Now. What about that thing of Denmark/Sweden/Norway/Germany being Amiga countries in the late 80's and early 90's someone might ask. Well it is true that we were Amiga users and not that much of x86/Dos users back than. The thing is, that teenagers that were interested in computers, wanted to buy one for the money they earned from the paper route or other job's. And you got money when you were confirmated in the christian fate (that religious thing at the age of 13/14), so you bought an Amiga. Because... 1: Your parents did not allow you to have both a console and a computer, it was only one. 2: You bought something that had multiple uses.

Most of the times, you did not buy anything computerised, as your parents did not want you to become a secluded wierdo that ended up killing people or you getting other type of mental issues (yes, that was a thing parents feared back then) so you bought a bicycle, skateboard or a stereo-system instead, while secretly wanted that computer.

brostenen wrote:

Now. What about that thing of Denmark/Sweden/Norway/Germany being Amiga countries in the late 80's and early 90's someone might ask. Well it is true that we were Amiga users and not that much of x86/Dos users back than.

This is exactly what is reflected in the demoscene, which also mostly concentrated itself around Western Europe.
It started mainly on the C64 in the early to mid 80s, as a spinoff from the cracking scene, which itself was most active on the C64, since it was the most popular home computer.
From around 1988, the focus in the demoscene shifted from C64 to Amiga (a result of the introduction of the Amiga 500, which teenagers could now afford, although the first crack/demo releases for Amiga date from 1986).
From around 1992 you saw a shift from Amiga to PC.

brostenen wrote:

It was not untill around 2000 that the masses began to own cell phones, before that it was a status symbol.

or a work tool, agreed. But I never mentioned a cellphone??!?

brostenen wrote:

Only a select few households had computers here in 1992/94 and owning TWO computers? Well... If you bought a computer, then you used it untill it was worn out and owning two? Then you were extremely wealthy.

What is the difference, other than loss of utility, between owning two $1K computers (A2000 + 386DX40) versus owning one that cost you >$2000 and is slower?

brostenen wrote:

The thing is, that teenagers that were interested in computers, wanted to buy one for the money they earned from the paper route or other job's. And you got money when you were confirmated in the christian fate (that religious thing at the age of 13/14), so you bought an Amiga.

Same tradition in Poland, 14 and whole family drops $. Either in small gifts or In 1990ties often into one pile for fancy bike/watch/computer.

brostenen wrote:

Because... 1: Your parents did not allow you to have both a console and a computer, it was only one.

was that on religious grounds? 😉

brostenen wrote:

You bought something that had multiple uses.

like a real PC if you could afford it 😜, Amigas were picked mainly due to A500 price point. A500 cost the same as used PC XT/no hdd/hercules monitor in ~1989-1992, while being immensely more graphically capable. Things looked different if you had a big/generous family and managed to collect enough for two A500, now we are talking brand new 386SX money!
Still I lost the plot, what difference does it make while talking about $1K A2000/3000 bridgeboard delivering <$1K PC performance when plugged into $1-3K Amiga?

rasz_pl wrote:

What is the difference, other than loss of utility, between owning two $1K computers (A2000 + 386DX40) versus owning one that cost you >$2000 and is slower?

I don't know. Eventually people kept on to what they had, and then moved on to a totally new machine. And in this case, it was an x86 Dos based and not Amiga. Most people only bought an a500 anyway between 1988 and 1991. Then briefly an 1200 if they had the money. Else people ditched Amiga's completely in 1994, because they thought that the platform was dead when Commodore died. And is true to an extend. This way people never bought a bridgeboard anyway.

rasz_pl wrote:

Same tradition in Poland, 14 and whole family drops $. Either in small gifts or In 1990ties often into one pile for fancy bike/watch/computer.

I bought a Philips MIDI stereo in 1990 for the money I got. It was with CD-Player and turntable. Double casette deck.

rasz_pl wrote:

was that on religious grounds? 😉

Nope. People did not put any religion into any everyday activity or pattern of thinking. Danes have been living like atheists since the 1960's. More or less. Like I have never had an religeous upbringing at all, and church was just something we went to, when there was something to go to church for. Like december the 24'th, wedding, babtising or confirmation. A lot of people get married at the city hall these days, and that is without a priest. It is like we have reverted back to the time of the end of the Viking era. Were people attended the christian service, just because it is a thing to do. Not because people believe in it. To us, christianity is like taking the overall guideline and nothing else. That is to behave and be nice to each other and nothing more than that. Actually... Churches are mostly empty at sunday these days, and so the priest is holding a service for aprox 5 people in a town of 25000 and sometimes there are no people on sunday. Most danes say that they believe that there most likely is something spiritual, yet it is not the christian view that are what's out there.

It was just a general fear of technology. Violent games makes you a psycho murder. Television gives you square eyes. And so on. It have always been like that. As an example, then in the 1930's, then parents thought that all those chrime radio-play and other tales they aired in the radio, would make children violent and make killers out of them. The same when book's became cheap. Parents have always been like this with any new technology or media or whatever that was "the new thing".

brostenen wrote:

rasz_pl wrote:

It was just a general fear of technology. Violent games makes you a psycho murder.

Must've been a danish thing. Me an my friends played Death Wish 3, Persian Gulf Inferno, Strip Poker and Doom like no other games existed! Usually we got bored and went outside before our parents complained about our playing habbits. Nobody cared what type of bloodfest kids played back then, there were no age limits in games back then and most games were copies from friends anyway. My parents were quite happy for me being a homely nerd in high school and not running around drinking with my buddies. Which I actually did, but managed to stay home that one time when I overheard my parents talking about me going out every weekend. 🤣

There have always been a deep fear of new things in Denmark. Like credit cards. People thought that the ATM would eat the card or steal the money, when the credit cards first arrived. And computers were no different. The same with VHS and so on.

In my experience, PCs entered the homes through two trajectories, which were somewhat 'unfair' to the other platforms:
1) PC compatibles were often used in organizations, because of the killer apps available, such as WordPerfect, dBase, Lotus 1-2-3 and such. Since PC hardware developed quickly, companies would generally upgrade their machines every few years. Many companies allowed their employees to buy their own old computers. Many of my friends got their first PC at home this way: a surplus business machine. Usually an XT-class machine with Hercules or CGA, good enough to play early PC games on (usually with SIMCGA).
2) At least in the Netherlands, there was a project known as "PC-Privé", which was supported by the government. It was some kind of loan/lease construction for buying a PC at home. Because you bought it via your employer, you got a big tax reduction. Also, you could benefit from price reductions and things that the employer got from the hardware supplier (because your employer would buy in bulk, and would have good relations with the suppliers). This meant that buying a PC compatible machine was more attractive than buying a home computer. Even though the PC may be more expensive in the end, you didn't pay full price, and you didn't have to pay it directly, you could pay it monthly, where the payments could just be taken out of your salary, so you didn't notice as much.

Yes, there was a flood of decommissioned office PCs in the late 1980s and early 90s. Although old, they could be got much cheaper than new machines, or even for free. Many people got their first introduction to the platform this way.

Most of the times, you did not buy anything computerised, as your parents did not want you to become a secluded wierdo

So exploitable...