My first laptop was a Toshiba Satellite Pro with a Pentium II CPU which cost an arm and a leg (even heavily used), weighed a ton and was as thick as a culinary book. I'd much rather have a "compromised" modern laptop which I can carry in my backpack without even noticing that it's there.

While I'm almost fully in the Apple camp now, I have a lot of respect for ThinkPads, and I think their keyboards are still decent even on modern offerings. They have rather poor displays though. Modern MacBooks on the other hand have amazing displays but I'm not a fan of the butterfly keyboard, even though it's passable.

I must also add that any laptop, no matter how well designed, is horrible in terms of ergonomics, and you should never use its built in display and keyboard for long periods of time if you care about your back, neck and wrists. When my laptop was my main computer, I used it docked both at home and in the office, and if I'm only using the built-in keyboard to write an occasional email, there's no point in making it any better and thicker thus compromising the mobility.

This applies to your other points as well: if you want desktop-like input devices, desktop-like connectivity, desktop-like upgradeability and desktop-like performance, you would be much better served by a desktop.

I'm pretty much in alignment with ShovelKnight. Switched to Apple mostly because I was sick of crap PC laptops and the constant cost-cutting, then decided to give OS X an honest try full time, and came to really like it. Mostly, I bought a 2016 MBP for the hardware. I expected good, but the screen is fantastic, and the touchpad is so good I don't care to pack a mouse anymore (which I always have, since my first Pentium 3 laptop), and even miss the gestures when back on a traditional desktop setup.

Everything's a compromise, but for me, the thinness and lightness are quite welcome after having traveled with a Dell Latitude and then a Lenovo for a while. (And then both.) The Lenovo's completely unusable trackpad being the final straw for PC laptops, but its awful screen was a close second. I've been a Windows user since 3.0, so it was a leap of faith to couple the hardware change with an OS switch too, but I won't go back now. The Metro interface actually deserves some credit for that... it wasn't JUST hardware. (Yes, I realize MS recovered from that, and while I'm not a big Windows 10 fan -- for what little I've used it -- if it had been the direct successor to Win 7, I might have stuck around. Probably not, though. OS X is really pretty great.)

I don't mind the butterfly keyboard on the 2016 MBP, but the later ones do seem to have taken the "thin" thing maybe just a liiiittle too far. I'll reserve judgment until I actually clock more than 30 seconds on one, though. I'm also not super excited about dropping SD, USB 2, analog audio, HDMI, Thunderbolt, and MagJack for 100% USB C, even though, I realize, this is the inevitable future. Apple is always ahead of the game. Sometimes uncomfortably so. This is one of those things I'll look back on and think, "wonder what I was so fussed about?" I'm just not there yet.

I'm 50/50 on aspect ratio. I think wide screens make a lot of sense for certain applications, while others the more square ratio is better. I guess you can't have it both ways, so one has to win. I'm OK with that being 16:9, as at least it matches the displays we use for entertainment, and since devices are so integrated these days (PCs are appliances, and appliances are PCs) that's probably for the best. I use my TV as a monitor at least half the time, so the more seamless that relationship is, the better. Aside from that, editing two code files side-by-side, or a firewall policy with a ton of columns... wide is definitely better.

Optical drives... I just don't care anymore. I want USB devices to remain available, of course, but an integrated CD/DVD/BD-ROM? ..... why? All my CDs are ripped to WAV+CUE and AAC, all my DVDs, HD-DVDs, and BDs are ripped to MKV, and all my software is ripped to MDS/MDF. I'm actively pursuing the goal of converting all my disc-based game consoles to solid-state. The ideal for me is to distribute media on disc, and consume it from memory. Why on earth would I want to restrict myself on-the-go to the handful of discs I thought to bring? Discs are best suited as read-once, and then kept for disaster-recovery.

A lot of my opinions are based on the fact that I rely on my laptop so heavily. I use it for EVERYthing. Work, coding, 3D modeling, wood-working plans, audio recording / mixing / composing, media consumption, everything. Ergo, it's with me almost always... so, more power in a smaller space, please. When I need to, I'll bring my own large display and full-size keyboard.

As far as upgrades, I see the lack of access bays less as an evil plot to lock me out of the innards (I can always get in there if I want to), and more as a consequence of miniaturization. There's no room for catches and screws and lids anymore. Of all the laptops I've ever owned, only one has had two batteries, and that's because it came to me that way. If my MBP's battery is any worse now than when I got it, I can't tell. Usually the batteries would start to fail when I was about ready to upgrade anyway. I have previously upgraded RAM within its lifespan, but only because I cheaped out up front. I've had to replace two HDDs, but with solid-state being so much more reliable than those laptop spinners, I don't expect that to be an issue anymore.

Apple does take advantage of the "now or never" thing at sale time by pricing the memory and flash options a bit higher than they probably should be, which makes it a little tougher to stomach the premium. I bought 16GB of RAM this time because I wanted to run VMs of Windows and Linux, possibly at the same time. Their flash is expensive, but I'm assuming they are at least hocking a reasonably up-market product compared to the bargains I see on Amazon. That might not completely settle the cost difference, but at the end of the day, this has truly been the best computer I've ever bought, so I'm happy to pay. (The VAIOs I used to buy were good, but not quite this good.) Contrary to the anti-Apple rhetoric thrown around by some, I'm quite aware there are cheaper options, and I don't feel at all that I'm being snowed or suckered. It has to work, and so far, it has exceeded my expectations.

Sorry, this ended up being a little bit more of an Apple vs. PC thing than just solely about laptops, but Apple does have an aggressively forward approach to hardware design and pushes the envelope on form factor, so having recently switched platforms couples those arguments pretty closely in my case. I still use PCs (mostly Linux, but some Windows as well), so I haven't left the PC camp entirely, I just probably won't buy another PC laptop as long as an Apple product exists that I like as well or better. My view on laptops would probably be different if I were still using Dell and Lenovo products, and the attempts at miniaturization had a more significant impact on its subjective feel or durability.

keenmaster486 wrote:

This will be a rant, yes, but not an angry one. Only mildly irritated.

I like your rant. It actually has good points, backed up by facts, and honest; not like some of the rants which can only be summarized as "everything was better in the old days and I want it to stay like that". 🤣

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]Numero Uno is always the keyboard. Modern laptops have either (A) a chiclet "island" style keyboard, with very short travel and a cheap, plasticy feel -- or (B) in the case of the MacBooks, a "butterfly" keyboard that feels like typing on little pieces of Scotch tape and frequently breaks. These objectively inferior keyboards are engineering compromises made in order to prioritize thinness (I'll get back to that later). In addition, the keyboard layouts are increasingly minimalistic, with various hotkeys and shortcuts taking the place of frequently used keys such as PageUp and PageDown.

Most laptops have had shit keyboards back in the day as well. Thinkpads have always been an exception, and they still are. I have experienced with modern Thinkpads and old ones as well; they key travel is shorter but that is not a problem. The only thing that is a problem (to me) is the layout - the loss of the 7th row - which translates to loss of certain keyts and reshuffling of others. Unfortunately very few people care as much as I do.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]Build construction -- most modern laptops prioritize thinness over all else. Since there are limits to how well we can engineer things for a particular price, this often results in laptops that feel cheap and flimsy. We have reached the point of marginal returns in the thinness department, and we have driven off that cliff into the abyss.

I don't feel this is the case at all; when comparing similar price ranges, I don't think the build quality has changed much. Again, looking at Thinkpads and other business models mostly - some things feel better, others worse, certain models have specific design/engineering flaws, but that has always been the case.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]Ports -- many modern laptops eschew standard ports such as USB or HDMI, in favor of either a new standard such as USB-C (which is not bad in and of itself, but breaks compatibility) or just removing them altogether and relying on wireless capabilities to do everything. Not the best for usability!

At some point you have to break compatibility in favor of pushing technology forward. Otherwise we would all still be using VGA and serial ports instead of USB and digital video. I think that there are still plenty of 14" and up laptops that have enough port variety (HDMI, USB-A, full-size SD; mine even has real RJ45 Ethernet). However, USB-C/Thunderbolt is damned good now, as it gives you high-quality video + sufficient (for most cases) power delivery + USB expansion in a small and simple port. Extra bonus - phones/tablets are also moving there, and eventually the ecosystem will be better for it rather than the 10 different USB-A/B/mini/micro + 4 different video ports, etc.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]No optical drive options -- this is a mistake in my opinion. Yes, most consumers don't need an optical drive any more. But many still do -- people have DVDs and CDs lying around they still want to be able to play, and many businesses will have use for the optical drive for various reasons. But I'm pretty sure none of the PC companies still make a laptop that has the option of an optical drive.

Agree that it would be nice to still have some workstation models with this option. As it is only some very specific 15.6" or 17" laptops (which are not really laptops) have it. With that said, USB optical drives are a good enough option for someone who needs it maybe once or twice a year.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]Modularity and upgradeability -- most companies are striking down things such as removable batteries and socketed RAM/CPUs in favor of cementing the specs of laptops in stone. Fine for the average consumer but not so great for power users and developers who want to be able to upgrade their machines, or squeeze as much life out of them as they can.

Agree.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[*]Screen aspect ratio and overall laptop dimensions. 16:9 is just not a pleasing aspect ratio! Many people have noted this over the years. I prefer 4:3 myself -- others say 16:10, or 3:2, but the main point is that 16:9 is just too wide. It has to do with the field of view of the human eye -- while you are working, you shouldn't have to keep panning your eyes back and forth all the way from the left of the screen to the right.[/list]

Personally I don't see this as a deal-breaker. Yes, sometimes I'd prefer 4:3, sometimes 8:5, sometimes 16:9, but I can live with all. Besides, as you said:

keenmaster486 wrote:

The other big thing there is the screens, which are much better quality, resolution, color reproduction etc. than they used to be (aspect ratio notwithstanding).

keenmaster486 wrote:

My main point here is that the market is RIPE for a completely disruptive product, which would combine the best aspects of older laptops (the points mentioned above) with the best aspects of modern hardware, for a killer product. It would be popular with developers and power users, and would gain a reputation as the gold standard of laptops.

Heck, just find me the right executive at Lenovo to convince to at least release one workstation model with the 7-row "Anniversary" keyboard and I'll be happy. 😀

ShovelKnight wrote:

I have a lot of respect for ThinkPads, and I think their keyboards are still decent even on modern offerings. They have rather poor displays though.

I think this is no longer the case. Or more accurately - most Thinkpads have very good display options nowadays, even if they also have low-end configurations.

dr_st wrote:

Or more accurately - most Thinkpads have very good display options nowadays, even if they also have low-end configurations.

Maybe that's because I'm mostly interested in portable laptops (14" and less), but I find all of their display options rather underwhelming.

The HiDPI screens (2560x1440) are useless because if you use 2x scaling for pixel perfect rendering, you end up with 1280x720 logical resolution which has no vertical real estate at all. Like none whatsoever. And if you use non-integer scaling, you end up with blurry applications, e.g. Outlook 2016 (at least the version we have in our office where everything is managed centrally) looks horrible at 125 or 150% scaling. And Lenovo's non-HiDPI screens are severely dull and cover less than 70% sRGB which leads to very muted colour reproduction as a result.

Obviously, something like X1E (which comes with a 4K IGZO panel) doesn't have those limitations, but anything smaller/more portable is just not very good in my opinion.

The only ThinkPad with a perfect screen is X1 Tablet Gen3, it has 13" 3000x2000 panel which is amazing in pretty much every respect (pixel density, aspect ratio, colour reproduction). But 5 hours of battery life just don't cut it in 2019...

to me the worst compromise is heat dissipation (particularly in apple computers)
that's just wrong, i'd rather prefeer a not-so-thin laptop that's cool or at least don't burn my lap/desk, than a thin-like-paper piece of magma.
also it should allow to reach higher turbo clocks on most processors and gpus before they start throttling

ShovelKnight wrote:

Maybe that's because I'm mostly interested in portable laptops (14" and less), but I find all of their display options rather underwhelming.

I actually prefer FHD on 14", which I can use at 100% scaling. But if it's too low for you, then yes, you might find it disappointing. The point is there are still plenty of sufficiently bright IPS displays.

ShovelKnight wrote:

And if you use non-integer scaling, you end up with blurry applications, e.g. Outlook 2016 (at least the version we have in our office where everything is managed centrally) looks horrible at 125 or 150% scaling.

That's not so true anymore. You get applications that look weird sometimes, but very few look blurry. The blurriness happens sometimes when you change scaling on the fly; it typically goes away after signing out and back in (Windows limitations).

I’ve spent a few months with a 14” Dell G7 Hackintosh dual booting macOS/W10. Before I had a 11” 2014 MacBook Air. I loved my Air, but I needed something a bit more powerful. Months later, I regretted it immensely. The Dell not only is heavy and bulky, its also harder to mantain. I sold it and got a second hand 2013 MacBook Pro 13”, with a few scratches but yet quite powerful (i7, 1TB flash storage). Ive always been a mac guy since 2010, when I switched from PC to Mac. And I never more try to make the way back, the Mac is amazing to me in almost every aspect except one: the keyboard. That’s my only complaint.

I like the laptops being thin, less ports, lighter. I need portability. But the butterfly keyboard is horrible, hence why I stick with older macbooks. I know they will change to “scissor” keyboards, but nothing beats a mechanical keyboard - an Acer Extensa I had found here in my garbage lost for like 30 years still had an amazing keyboard.

As for the screen I like them wider, I need retina for my design works. I tend to stay between 1920x1050 and 1680x1050. Wider allows me to work split screen with my design and my code at the same time. Actually I close the lid, and go hdmi on my 40” TV screen with true 4K retina resolution.

If I were to start a rant, I would rant about mouses not having a trackball anymore for scrolling pages... but I more than welcome the trackpad and its gestures.

I don't have a horse in this race because I don't use modern laptops other than my wife's HP Elitebook when watching TV in bed. Even though it's a big "business laptop" it get's too hot too fast for my taste. Reviews praise the chicklet keyboard but imho you might as well be tapping on a stone tablet. A lot of my co-workers use Dell Latitudes with similar keys and when I see them thwack away at them in meetings I can almost feel the shock going up my arm...

The issue with introducing the kind of product OP is suggesting is that other than a niche audience, people don't really care very much about the form factor and function of their devices, at least not in a way other than them looking sleek and stylish. They want mobile devices to be light-weight and unobtrusive and if that means having no ports and an awful keyboard with no travel at all -- then that's just too bad. This should not come as a surprise, seeing as most consumers don't care about computer hardware like a lot of people on this forum care about it (hardware for the hardware's sake, if you will) but rather see them as a means to an end, i.e. being a convenient device to do whatever they want to do.. so probably, like, 90% is just browsing the internet/social media, basic office stuff/word processing, and then more specific apps for work, gaming, music etc.

Actually, if one wanted a sturdy, old-school laptop with just a good keyboard and nice, bright 4:3 screen, it'd maybe be a good idea to think about converting an old machine to some modern hardware:

https://www.reddit.com/r/retrobattlestations/ … new_screen_and/

Well, maybe not this particular because it's 15 lbs, but you get the idea...

Or just put a raspberry Pi and a mechanical keyboard in a small briefcase 🤣

[ah a good old I dont like change post 😉
my 2 cents, but I'll come from a corporate IT angle to make it a bit different.

Keyboard
Yeh they suck, but so do most keyboards that ship with PC's these days, The most common "extras" users request is a mouse, then a keyboard, then a screen.
Layout was always going suffer due to size, I accept that. I'm not a fan of laptops that default the F keys to the FN function but that's easily fixed in bios.

Build construction
Apple definitely are the leaders here.
I remember going to a HP product launch around 2003? where he stood ontop of the laptop, admittedly on the corners, but the point he was making was the lid was strong enough that pressure on the lid wouldn't crack the screen underneath, still a common issue today and the the metal lids are mostly gone to save a few grams, personally I'd accept the weight.

Ports
Business laptops still have Ethernet, USB, video out (be it DP, HDMI, or VGA) anything else isn't guaranteed.
People bringing in home laptops to setup VPN or newer macs that are port free do suck. I'm all for moving over to usb c but it's not common enough yet to drop everything else and you cant tell me they couldn't at least include 1 legacy USB port.

No optical drive options
Afraid I cant agree on this one, As mentioned before music/movies are streamed and even as a service engineer I rely on iso's and USB sticks more then disc's. I have a USB drive if really needed but that lives in the server room for the most part.

Modularity and upgradeability
Agree in theory but the reality is they are throw away devices now anyway.
RAM should definitively be up gradable, Battery preferably the old style that clipped in but understand that's not possible for thinness, so will accept having to remove a panel but it should be a serviceable part and ot a mission to replace.

Screen aspect ratio and overall laptop dimensions.
Most popular laptop is the 14" seems to be the perfect size/portability compromise.
Aspect ratio doesn't really bother most people (myself included) but web pages etc are designed for wide screen now so sadly square think 4:3 or 5:4 is dead, even though I prefer it as well

touchpad technology
Funny enough I think the other way. Mac's are ok but I dont like the texture, I find pc's are mostly terrible now as they try and copy Apple, and whats wrong with 2 mouse buttons?

I will say this in defense of the manufactures though. Most laptops still outlive the service life, Vast majority of our laptops are HP Probooks from 2011 and still going strong. These things aren't loved and get chucked in bags, cars, etc. not sitting on desks at home for the most part.
So while they don't feel the same quality as older laptops I guess it doesn't make scene to over engineer something. Home laptops I find last about 5 years as its creaper to replace then have someone look at it these days and people like new shiny things.

chinny22 wrote:

Business laptops still have Ethernet, USB, video out (be it DP, HDMI, or VGA) anything else isn't guaranteed.

I think even that is changing. A few years ago, Dell still had their own docking stations, that connected to a special bus at the base of the laptop. The docking stations would contain additional ethernet, USB, video etc.
But since USB 3.0, Dell has started selling 'docking stations' that were essentially just a USB 3.0 module that provides the same basic functionality that the old docking stations did. Main difference is that you no longer need the proprietary connector at the base of the laptop, which they only included on their professional models.
Like these: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/dell-doc … /pc-accessories
And these: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/dell-bus … /pc-accessories

Scali wrote:

I think even that is changing. A few years ago, Dell still had their own docking stations, that connected to a special bus at th […]
Show full quote

chinny22 wrote:

Business laptops still have Ethernet, USB, video out (be it DP, HDMI, or VGA) anything else isn't guaranteed.

I think even that is changing. A few years ago, Dell still had their own docking stations, that connected to a special bus at the base of the laptop. The docking stations would contain additional ethernet, USB, video etc.
But since USB 3.0, Dell has started selling 'docking stations' that were essentially just a USB 3.0 module that provides the same basic functionality that the old docking stations did. Main difference is that you no longer need the proprietary connector at the base of the laptop, which they only included on their professional models.
Like these: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/dell-doc … /pc-accessories
And these: https://www.dell.com/en-uk/work/shop/dell-bus … /pc-accessories

Was going to mention docking stations but thought I may be drifting off topic, but now that you have mentioned it....
Your right alot of business laptops dropped docking stations, home laptops fine but business?
By my standards a docking station needs to supply power, instead they push port replicators, Sorry but climbing under my desk to plug in power is more a pain then plugging in a few cables sitting on top of my desk!
At least newer ports can deliver enough power to get around proprietary connectors.

I always liked the old Apple Thunderbolt display, effectively integrating the docking station into the screen plug all your cables into the screen and the thunderbolt cable included the magsafe power connector.
Surprised the likes of Dell or HP didn't copy that idea.

USB-C/Thunderbolt docking stations can supply up to 100W of power. The proprietary connections are not needed anymore.

There are USB-C displays that give you charging, video, audio and USB with just one cable. But they’re currently rather pricey.

Laptops are DEAD ! And Idea of the 1990’s
My iPad can do just about everything a PC can do,
The Microsoft Windows-10 tablet interface is TERRIBLE.
It is NOT applicable for touch screen with your fingers.

I don’t even use laptops anymore.
I just use my iPad.
I find it a real pain to use an MS-Windows computer.

Intel486dx33 wrote:

Laptops are DEAD ! And Idea of the 1990’s My iPad can do just about everything a PC can do, The Microsoft Windows-10 tablet inte […]
Show full quote

Laptops are DEAD ! And Idea of the 1990’s
My iPad can do just about everything a PC can do,
The Microsoft Windows-10 tablet interface is TERRIBLE.
It is NOT applicable for touch screen with your fingers.

I don’t even use laptops anymore.
I just use my iPad.
I find it a real pain to use an MS-Windows computer.

Don’t be such an extreme Apple fanboy.

I’m an Apple fan too, but even I can see where they are wrong.

I own an iPad Pro and although I could do most of the stuff I do on my MacBook Pro, it still cannot replace my MacBook Pro when it comes to work. I am a Web Designer and I rely on certain tools for that. I cannot design and code an entire website only with the iPad.

Granted, I have Coda for iOS to code, but what about design? iOS doesn’t have Adobe X.D and neither Adobe Photoshop. I need X.D more than Photoshop.

The iPad isn’t a laptop replacement... yet. Not yet.

Intel486dx33 wrote:

Laptops are DEAD

If you said desktops are dead I'd of said possibly.
The difference between a desktop and laptop these days aren't much.

and yeh homes could get away without any computer but even you said JUST about do everything.

But how many businesses have ditched computers for ipads? spending all day doing productive work on an ipad sounds like hell to me.
How many A list games are written for IOS?
The laptop isnt going away anytime soon.

keenmaster486 wrote:

[…]
Show full quote

• Numero Uno is always the keyboard. Modern laptops have either (A) a chiclet "island" style keyboard, with very short travel and a cheap, plasticy feel -- or (B) in the case of the MacBooks, a "butterfly" keyboard that feels like typing on little pieces of Scotch tape and frequently breaks. These objectively inferior keyboards are engineering compromises made in order to prioritize thinness (I'll get back to that later). In addition, the keyboard layouts are increasingly minimalistic, with various hotkeys and shortcuts taking the place of frequently used keys such as PageUp and PageDown.
• Build construction -- most modern laptops prioritize thinness over all else. Since there are limits to how well we can engineer things for a particular price, this often results in laptops that feel cheap and flimsy. We have reached the point of marginal returns in the thinness department, and we have driven off that cliff into the abyss.
• Ports -- many modern laptops eschew standard ports such as USB or HDMI, in favor of either a new standard such as USB-C (which is not bad in and of itself, but breaks compatibility) or just removing them altogether and relying on wireless capabilities to do everything. Not the best for usability!
• No optical drive options -- this is a mistake in my opinion. Yes, most consumers don't need an optical drive any more. But many still do -- people have DVDs and CDs lying around they still want to be able to play, and many businesses will have use for the optical drive for various reasons. But I'm pretty sure none of the PC companies still make a laptop that has the option of an optical drive.
• Modularity and upgradeability -- most companies are striking down things such as removable batteries and socketed RAM/CPUs in favor of cementing the specs of laptops in stone. Fine for the average consumer but not so great for power users and developers who want to be able to upgrade their machines, or squeeze as much life out of them as they can.
• Screen aspect ratio and overall laptop dimensions. 16:9 is just not a pleasing aspect ratio! Many people have noted this over the years. I prefer 4:3 myself -- others say 16:10, or 3:2, but the main point is that 16:9 is just too wide. It has to do with the field of view of the human eye -- while you are working, you shouldn't have to keep panning your eyes back and forth all the way from the left of the screen to the right.

It sounds like you want a Thinkpad 25. It's deliberately a retro laptop, but it has a bunch of ports, a great keyboard, and high build quality. Pity that it's a one-off from last year and no longer sold new.

You're not going to find a new laptop with an optical drive outside of the 17-19 inch gaming luggables - just pack a slim $20 USB dvd drive for the extremely rare times when you still need one. It's lighter, more economical, and you can use that external drive with any device you want.

If you want a 3:2 screen instead of 16:9, look at the Microsoft Surface Laptop 2 or Surface Book 2.

chinny22 wrote:

Your right alot of business laptops dropped docking stations, home laptops fine but business?

Which business laptops dropped docking stations? I don't think many did, if any. Home laptops never had them to start.

chinny22 wrote:

I always liked the old Apple Thunderbolt display, effectively integrating the docking station into the screen plug all your cables into the screen and the thunderbolt cable included the magsafe power connector.
Surprised the likes of Dell or HP didn't copy that idea.

They did. There are some Thunderbolt / USB-C displays that can be used as docking stations, and there are also Thunderbolt / USB-C docks.

ShovelKnight wrote:

USB-C/Thunderbolt docking stations can supply up to 100W of power. The proprietary connections are not needed anymore.

That is mostly correct; some workstations that need >100W still have those proprietary connectors (which in some cases may just be dual USB-C ports).

chinny22 wrote:

But how many businesses have ditched computers for ipads? spending all day doing productive work on an ipad sounds like hell to me.

Guys, don't feed the iPad troll.

LightStruk wrote:

It sounds like you want a Thinkpad 25. It's deliberately a retro laptop, but it has a bunch of ports, a great keyboard, and high build quality. Pity that it's a one-off from last year and no longer sold new.

I have a Thinkpad 25. There is nothing "retro" about it. It's simply a T470 with a 7-row keyboard, and is a very nice, well-balanced laptop, but one that has limits (same limits that the T470 has). However, because I am very picky about keyboard layout, it is the only modern laptop I was willing to buy, and I can live with its deficiencies. 😎

Let's all please ignore Mr. iPad Man over there; even if he isn't a troll he sure does act like one.

To respond to a couple points, more later...

Optical drives --
I think it should be an option... not necessarily standard. Just my two cents but I sure would buy such a machine, and I feel like a lot of businesses would too. It'd be a small part of a manufacturer's market, but maybe it could be on the larger business-class machines and the other option if you don't get the CD drive is to have a second battery in the drive bay. (or a ZIP drive -- haha!)

The Thinkpad 25 --
Yeah, it's a T470 or something like that, with one of their old T420 keyboards slapped in it. Still a 16:9 screen (non-high-res either), anemic CPU for the price, no display ports, etc. -- lots of diehard Thinkpad fans have complained that it didn't meet any of the things they talked about when Lenovo did their customer survey requesting input on a "retro" Thinkpad, except for the keyboard.

chinny22 wrote:

touchpad technology
Funny enough I think the other way. Mac's are ok but I dont like the texture, I find pc's are mostly terrible now as they try and copy Apple, and whats wrong with 2 mouse buttons?

This held me off of buying a MacBook for probably four years. "I *would* try a Mac, but I can't live w/o that second button." I don't miss it anymore. The larger touchpad real-estate is more useful than a mechanical button. Heck, the 2016 MBP uses haptic feedback, so there isn't even ONE button anymore, it just senses the pressure and "clicks" by oscillating under your finger. It took a year of using it before I even noticed, and only then because I read about it and started playing with the trackpad to see for myself. That eliminates one heavily-used moving part, which can only help reliability... It's also kind of cool to have a software adjustment for how clicky the pad is.

The only downside is the rare application that wants you to do something like right-button drag, but there may even be a sequence to get around this (like double-finger tap and hold with one finger while moving around.)

chinny22 wrote:

Was going to mention docking stations but thought I may be drifting off topic, but now that you have mentioned it.... Your right […]
Show full quote

Scali wrote:

A few years ago, Dell still had their own docking stations, that connected to a special bus at the base of the laptop. The docking stations would contain additional ethernet, USB, video etc.
But since USB 3.0, Dell has started selling 'docking stations' that were essentially just a USB 3.0 module that provides the same basic functionality that the old docking stations did. Main difference is that you no longer need the proprietary connector at the base of the laptop, which they only included on their professional models.

Was going to mention docking stations but thought I may be drifting off topic, but now that you have mentioned it....
Your right alot of business laptops dropped docking stations, home laptops fine but business?
By my standards a docking station needs to supply power, instead they push port replicators, Sorry but climbing under my desk to plug in power is more a pain then plugging in a few cables sitting on top of my desk!

This is the one thing about USB-C that I am actually excited about. It was totally luck of the draw before whether your laptop had a dock option, and what interfaces that dock has. Now anything with USB-C has docking capability with a single cable, and that dock can have whatever complement of ports you want. I have a Thunderbolt external PCI enclosure so I can use an older MOTU audio interface with 56 channels in/out. I mean... I can use a PCI card with my laptop. The future's kinda awesome. 😁

I know some people might miss the process of dropping a laptop into a dock and snapping it into place, vs. plugging in a cable. OTOH, it always seemed fiddly to me to line up that super high-density pin connector, and I was just waiting for it to misalign and bend fifteen pins that I can't barely see with the naked eye.

I have minor concerns over how well some USB-C ports will fair after having the cable inserted at least once or twice every business day, but FWIW, Apple seems to have figured out how to make secure jacks that work just as well when I retire the device as when I bought it. My iPhone 6 (going on six years old now) gets charged every night and the cable plugs in firmly and solidly -- assuming I periodically remove the pocket lint that collect in there. 😉