keenmaster486 wrote:

• Numero Uno is always the keyboard. Modern laptops have either (A) a chiclet "island" style keyboard, with very short travel and a cheap, plasticy feel -- or (B) in the case of the MacBooks, a "butterfly" keyboard that feels like typing on little pieces of Scotch tape and frequently breaks. These objectively inferior keyboards are engineering compromises made in order to prioritize thinness (I'll get back to that later). In addition, the keyboard layouts are increasingly minimalistic, with various hotkeys and shortcuts taking the place of frequently used keys such as PageUp and PageDown.

Agreed!

keenmaster486 wrote:

• Build construction -- most modern laptops prioritize thinness over all else. Since there are limits to how well we can engineer things for a particular price, this often results in laptops that feel cheap and flimsy. We have reached the point of marginal returns in the thinness department, and we have driven off that cliff into the abyss.

I think this is a "you get what you pay for" thing. On the premium products like a Razor Blade and other good unibody designs, I think the build quality is a lot better than the 90's and early 2000's by a fair margin. I haven't forgotten the plastic clamshells and garbage hinges of yesteryear.

keenmaster486 wrote:

• Ports -- many modern laptops eschew standard ports such as USB or HDMI, in favor of either a new standard such as USB-C (which is not bad in and of itself, but breaks compatibility) or just removing them altogether and relying on wireless capabilities to do everything. Not the best for usability!

Nobody like this. If everything eventually moves to USB4/type C I think it will be less of an issue. Two or three everything ports would be enough, and there are dongles for stuff like SD cards and other peripherals. I think the issue is sex appeal. Thin, sleak laptops have much tighter margins on space and something has to give.

keenmaster486 wrote:

• No optical drive options -- this is a mistake in my opinion. Yes, most consumers don't need an optical drive any more. But many still do -- people have DVDs and CDs lying around they still want to be able to play, and many businesses will have use for the optical drive for various reasons. But I'm pretty sure none of the PC companies still make a laptop that has the option of an optical drive.

We are on an island on this one. Optical media is very nearly completely dead. I use a USB DVD drive.

keenmaster486 wrote:

• Modularity and upgradeability -- most companies are striking down things such as removable batteries and socketed RAM/CPUs in favor of cementing the specs of laptops in stone. Fine for the average consumer but not so great for power users and developers who want to be able to upgrade their machines, or squeeze as much life out of them as they can.

That's always been a problem though. With the pace of technology having slowed down in the last five years, I am less concerned about upgrading my laptop than I used to be.

keenmaster486 wrote:

• Screen aspect ratio and overall laptop dimensions. 16:9 is just not a pleasing aspect ratio! Many people have noted this over the years. I prefer 4:3 myself -- others say 16:10, or 3:2, but the main point is that 16:9 is just too wide. It has to do with the field of view of the human eye -- while you are working, you shouldn't have to keep panning your eyes back and forth all the way from the left of the screen to the right.

You mentioned the surface books. As a software developer I agree with you that really wide aspects aren't particularly useful. With that being said, I do 100% of my development in 16:9, and did so all throughout college and my professional career. An affordable TN or IPS panel with 5:4 aspect ratio and a high resolution would be great. On laptops though, content consumption is key. Anything not targeted at professionals is going to be 16:9 or 16:10 because it matches most media, and wider aspects are generally better for gaming.

keenmaster486 wrote:

Yeah, it's a T470 or something like that, with one of their old T420 keyboards slapped in it. Still a 16:9 screen (non-high-res either), anemic CPU for the price, no display ports, etc. -- lots of diehard Thinkpad fans have complained that it didn't meet any of the things they talked about when Lenovo did their customer survey requesting input on a "retro" Thinkpad, except for the keyboard.

Well, it actually did specifically include the most popular ports in the survey, which were HDMI, Ethernet, and full-size SD (and docking port, but that was obvious from the beginning). So the Thinkpad fans would be wrong claiming that the survey was ignored. The only thing that was blatantly ignored was the screen ratio - since the surveys indicated strong preference towards 4:3 or 8:5. There was never any agreement on the other things - e.g., workstation-class CPU or low-power one, big screen or low weight, yes to optical drive or no, etc.

There is nothing wrong with the Thinkpad 25; the only thing wrong is just that it is just one model and there is no way to reconcile all demands of all 7-row keyboard fans in a single model.

Also what happened to upgradability on laptops? Remember socketed CPUs, non-soldered RAM, SSDs, etc.?

Some ThinkPads even have soldered WiFi cards now. The T490 now has soldered 8 or 16GB RAM and a spare DDR4 SODIMM slot free. The build quality of ThinkPads have been going downhill since the IBM days. I loved the T4x and Lenovo's first few branded ThinkPads like the T6x. Give me a T6x with modern components (I know 51nb exists but I'm a bit skeptical).

Personally I don't even bother with consumer laptops. The ones under $800 are universally trash. Even the high end ones have some major flaw(s) like no maintenance, dongle mania, poor input devices, poor build quality, poor screen, or any combination of those. And don't even get me started on crApple.

Also, iPads can NEVER replace the utility of a laptop. Maybe for media consumption, but for actual work, no.

I liked Dell Latitudes and Precisions but now I don't really need a workstation class laptop since I use my desktop for heavier things. The Latitude line has steadily gotten worse with quality issues. I've had tons of ThinkPads, EliteBooks, and Latitudes from C2D era to 8th gen. The Latitudes were generally decent but the newer ones I;'ve had to service several times (an E7450 which went through 2 motherboard replacements, serviced by Dell) a few E7440s that died out of the blue, a 7490 that constantly BSOD'd. Yes, I prefer 14" laptops... good combination of size and performance without sacrificing ports/maintenance/etc.

Now I've been sticking to HP EliteBooks for a number of years since they're generally (IMHO) the better of the 3. I've stuck almost exclusively to the 14" ones but have had several 15" ones. The ones I've owned ALL have had generous port selection, solid build quality, decent trackpads (especially on the 8460p and sandy bridge machines and newer), usable keyboards, and easy access maintenance. I prefer being able to upgrade RAM, drives, redo thermal paste, etc. Users should be able to repair their machines.

I have had to replace motherboards on many ThinkPads and Dells. Never on an EliteBook. My current laptop is an EliteBook 840 G5 which has easy access to RAM, SSD, WiFi, heatsink. Also has some cool features like the SureView integrated privacy screen.

There won't be any going back unfortunately to 4:3 for laptops but for now finding something that sacrifices the least in what you want will do.

oeuvre wrote:

Also what happened to upgradability on laptops? Remember socketed CPUs, non-soldered RAM, SSDs, etc.?

Gone for the sake of slimness and miniaturization.

oeuvre wrote:

The build quality of ThinkPads have been going downhill since the IBM days.

No, it hasn't.

oeuvre wrote:

(I know 51nb exists but I'm a bit skeptical).

Yeah, me too.

oeuvre wrote:

Personally I don't even bother with consumer laptops.

Same.

oeuvre wrote:

Also, iPads can NEVER replace the utility of a laptop. Maybe for media consumption, but for actual work, no.

If your work involves any kind of content creation that's not finger-painting, yes. 😀

oeuvre wrote:

Now I've been sticking to HP EliteBooks for a number of years since they're generally (IMHO) the better of the 3. I've stuck almost exclusively to the 14" ones but have had several 15" ones. The ones I've owned ALL have had generous port selection, solid build quality, decent trackpads (especially on the 8460p and sandy bridge machines and newer), usable keyboards, and easy access maintenance.

The keyboards on Elitebooks strike me as the worst of all 3 major business brands (including Thinkpad and Latitude/Precision), but can't say I find them worse in other regards.

keenmaster486 wrote:

Let's all please ignore Mr. iPad Man over there; even if he isn't a troll he sure does act like one.

Oh, be nice. Intel486dx33 may have said something pointless, but at least he knows what he's talking about. If he's the one you were referring to.

Back on topic, laptops have pretty much looked and acted the same as they always have since their establishment, but I guess many newer ones have more added features. IMO, modern designed laptops are better.

ShovelKnight wrote:

USB-C/Thunderbolt docking stations can supply up to 100W of power. The proprietary connections are not needed anymore.

There are USB-C displays that give you charging, video, audio and USB with just one cable. But they’re currently rather pricey.

The Dell E-Dock was the best docking system ever made by Dell.

Now they only have USB/USB-C/TB docks.

The older TB docks will allow up to 180w through a single TB connector. The newer laptops limit it to 130w and require you to use a a dual USB-C dock to get enough power.

On top of that the USB-C/USB docks require that the drivers be installed before you can use the dock. This gives issues when PXE booting as you have to find the exact driver needed for the USB dock to be able to PXE boot in order to be able to image a machine. Some laptops don't even have an Ethernet port.

The TB docks (which are going away) did not require a driver install and just worked.

And to top it off, after 1-2 years up continually plugging/unplugging the USB-C / TB dock, the connection starts to get flakey. NEVER had this problem with the E-Dock or the D-Dock for that matter.. even after 10+ years.

cyclone3d wrote:

On top of that the USB-C/USB docks require that the drivers be installed before you can use the dock. This gives issues when PXE booting as you have to find the exact driver needed for the USB dock to be able to PXE boot in order to be able to image a machine. Some laptops don't even have an Ethernet port.

The TB docks (which are going away) did not require a driver install and just worked.

That's interesting. What makes TB docks different? That they use PCIe instead of USB? Are Ethernet over USB drivers less prevalent than standard PCI/PCIe Ethernet?

cyclone3d wrote:

And to top it off, after 1-2 years up continually plugging/unplugging the USB-C / TB dock, the connection starts to get flakey. NEVER had this problem with the E-Dock or the D-Dock for that matter.. even after 10+ years.

If it's just the cable, that's easy to replace. If the port itself gets worn out and damaged, that's bad.

bfcastello wrote:

Don’t be such an extreme Apple fanboy. […]
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Intel486dx33 wrote:

Laptops are DEAD ! And Idea of the 1990’s My iPad can do just about everything a PC can do, The Microsoft Windows-10 tablet inte […]
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Laptops are DEAD ! And Idea of the 1990’s
My iPad can do just about everything a PC can do,
The Microsoft Windows-10 tablet interface is TERRIBLE.
It is NOT applicable for touch screen with your fingers.

I don’t even use laptops anymore.
I just use my iPad.
I find it a real pain to use an MS-Windows computer.

Don’t be such an extreme Apple fanboy.

I’m an Apple fan too, but even I can see where they are wrong.

I own an iPad Pro and although I could do most of the stuff I do on my MacBook Pro, it still cannot replace my MacBook Pro when it comes to work. I am a Web Designer and I rely on certain tools for that. I cannot design and code an entire website only with the iPad.

Granted, I have Coda for iOS to code, but what about design? iOS doesn’t have Adobe X.D and neither Adobe Photoshop. I need X.D more than Photoshop.

The iPad isn’t a laptop replacement... yet. Not yet.

NO ! ... I like the original iPad just the way it is. I don’t want an iPad Pro.
I don’t want a USB port or any port.
A closed systems, tamper resistant iPad is what you want.
Simple and just what you need. If it does not work with the iPad then you don’t want to anyways.
Laptops and PC’s are too confusing and then even then they don’t do what you want.

I like to keep things simple. No need for confusion in a chaotic world.

With all the emphasis on "thinness" I wish they'd concentrate on shrinking the other two dimensions instead. Extreme thinness & the modern love of glass screens makes me super nervous when I have to carry one around in a backpack or bundled up with a power brick. I have a couple 2010-ish netbooks & I actually find that form factor far better to lug around, as I can chuck them in just about any bag without worrying how many pieces they'll come out in on the other side. They're way easier to take in things like airplane carry-ons and in general just do a better job of being portable.

Seriously, give me this back:

...with an AMD GX420, a 1600x1000 screen, 16GB of RAM and a pair of mini-Displayports instead of VGA. Ditch the near-useless touchpad for a Trackpoint pencil-eraser thing & the internal speakers altogether because there's a headphone jack AND a line-in on the other side. YESPLZ.

dr_st wrote:

That's interesting. What makes TB docks different? That they use PCIe instead of USB? Are Ethernet over USB drivers less prevale […]
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cyclone3d wrote:

On top of that the USB-C/USB docks require that the drivers be installed before you can use the dock. This gives issues when PXE booting as you have to find the exact driver needed for the USB dock to be able to PXE boot in order to be able to image a machine. Some laptops don't even have an Ethernet port.

The TB docks (which are going away) did not require a driver install and just worked.

That's interesting. What makes TB docks different? That they use PCIe instead of USB? Are Ethernet over USB drivers less prevalent than standard PCI/PCIe Ethernet?

cyclone3d wrote:

And to top it off, after 1-2 years up continually plugging/unplugging the USB-C / TB dock, the connection starts to get flakey. NEVER had this problem with the E-Dock or the D-Dock for that matter.. even after 10+ years.

If it's just the cable, that's easy to replace. If the port itself gets worn out and damaged, that's bad.

The whole booting over USB Ethernet is the problem. With the TB (PCIe) docks, it just works. The dumb USB docks require extra drivers to be installed. And they have a bunch of different USB docks available so you have to have the drivers for the exact dock drivers you are trying to image over be backed into the PXE boot image or else when it goes to image it drops the NIC and fails to image.

For the USB-C and TB docks having issues after a while... not sure if it is the cable or the port on the laptop. In any case, the cable would not be easy to replace as it is built into the dock.

My biggest gripe with the docks is that the cable cannot be moved to the other side of the dock and the "geniuses" at Dell decided to put the cables on the docks on the opposite side they should be on when taking into account where the ports on their laptops are located.

Intel486dx33 wrote:

NO ! ... I like the original iPad just the way it is. I don’t want an iPad Pro. I don’t want a USB port or any port. A closed s […]
Show full quote

NO ! ... I like the original iPad just the way it is. I don’t want an iPad Pro.
I don’t want a USB port or any port.
A closed systems, tamper resistant iPad is what you want.
Simple and just what you need. If it does not work with the iPad then you don’t want to anyways.
Laptops and PC’s are too confusing and then even then they don’t do what you want.

I like to keep things simple. No need for confusion in a chaotic world.

Why are you even on this forum then? 😕

cyclone3d wrote:

Intel486dx33 wrote:

NO ! ... I like the original iPad just the way it is. I don’t want an iPad Pro. I don’t want a USB port or any port. A closed s […]
Show full quote

NO ! ... I like the original iPad just the way it is. I don’t want an iPad Pro.
I don’t want a USB port or any port.
A closed systems, tamper resistant iPad is what you want.
Simple and just what you need. If it does not work with the iPad then you don’t want to anyways.
Laptops and PC’s are too confusing and then even then they don’t do what you want.

I like to keep things simple. No need for confusion in a chaotic world.

Why are you even on this forum then? 😕

Don’t feed the troll.

xjas wrote:

Seriously, give me this back:

.......

...with an AMD GX420, a 1600x1000 screen, 16GB of RAM and a pair of mini-Displayports instead of VGA. Ditch the near-useless touchpad for a Trackpoint pencil-eraser thing & the internal speakers altogether because there's a headphone jack AND a line-in on the other side. YESPLZ.

And now you have arrived at my idea for a Thinkpad 560 with modern guts and screen.

xjas wrote:

With all the emphasis on "thinness" I wish they'd concentrate on shrinking the other two dimensions instead.

I've been going back and forth on this, and in the end it comes down to people also wanting the largest possible screen for a given size/weight. Modern laptops sometimes look like they waste a lot of space in the wide bezels around the screen, but actually not so much is wasted there, because that space is filled with LCD drivers, wireless antennae, webcam and microphone arrays...

Keenmaster, I agree with everything you wrote, but I'll add one more thing to that list: laptop ergonomics suck

You have to bend your neck or arch your back to look at the screen and type. They are terrible for your posture. I only use my MBP for browsing while sitting on the sofa. Even then it annoys me that I have to contort my neck and back to see the damn thing. It's not conducive to working long hours on it.

There are some people that benefit from the portability for work travel. But those are few. I'll keep my desktop at home and in the office with monitors are at eye level. For travel I make a compromise: I take a Galaxy Tab S2 and a keyboard. Works well enough for email, documents, and browsing, plus it's tiny.

Sent from my MacBook Pro. Now I have to straighten my back and neck back to normal.

FuzzyLogic wrote:

laptop ergonomics suck

facts

Not really a laptop user, but if I were I would never want an optical drive in it. That's a lot of space that could be used for more battery.

ZellSF wrote:

Not really a laptop user, but if I were I would never want an optical drive in it. That's a lot of space that could be used for more battery.

My Dell has a modular slot for the DVD drive. You can put various other modules in there, such as another HDD, a battery, or in my case, a USB 3.0 module (I have an older model, which didn't have USB 3.0 onboard, but Dell later offered a USB 3.0 module).
The modules are small enough that you can put 1 or 2 of them in your laptop bag and take them with you. So I always have the DVD drive if I need it.
An external USB DVD drive would also work of course. Just like the external USB floppy drive I have.

FuzzyLogic wrote:

Keenmaster, I agree with everything you wrote, but I'll add one more thing to that list: laptop ergonomics suck You have to ben […]
Show full quote

Keenmaster, I agree with everything you wrote, but I'll add one more thing to that list: laptop ergonomics suck

You have to bend your neck or arch your back to look at the screen and type. They are terrible for your posture. I only use my MBP for browsing while sitting on the sofa. Even then it annoys me that I have to contort my neck and back to see the damn thing. It's not conducive to working long hours on it.

There are some people that benefit from the portability for work travel. But those are few. I'll keep my desktop at home and in the office with monitors are at eye level. For travel I make a compromise: I take a Galaxy Tab S2 and a keyboard. Works well enough for email, documents, and browsing, plus it's tiny.

Sent from my MacBook Pro. Now I have to straighten my back and neck back to normal.

I can relate to this. I have a health problem with that.

I am young and supple so I have not yet experienced ergonomics-related problems, but I can certainly relate. Good posture is important. As it is I tend to focus more on keeping my arms at the right level with the keyboard and mouse so I don't get carpal tunnel.