https://www.cultofmac.com/654230/iphone-11-ul … ide-camera-raw/

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ShovelKnight wrote:

The amount of vitriol in this thread is unbelievable.

This is my main point, really. It's a practical design decision to raise the bar on picture quality without moving parts or prohibitively sophisticated optics. So yeah, elegant -- at least in a DFM sense. Sure, the aesthetics are subjectively questionable, but that doesn't make it any less practical.

People rip apart every design choice Apple makes, and have since they became a majority player. I can totally understand when someone says "ugh, I don't like how that looks" and "meh, don't care, won't use the camera for anything except tracking my expense receipts anyway". But the frothing I don't get. It was an effective solution to improve a feature of the phone. People made wisecracks for months about the name "iPad", but it's just a given now. It's just new. Give it some time to get used to it, and it'll just be an attribute of the form factor.

I can't count how many times Apple has done something that made me raise an eyebrow, just to find myself agreeing that it was probably a good move later on down the road. Floppy drives, optical drives, the headphone jack... Mass hysteria followed by acceptance followed by "wonder why everyone made such a big fuss about that?"

I find it terribly questionable the thoughts of someone who believes Apple had an “elegant” solution for the camera. It says a lot to me - probably that person does not understand the concept of “elegant”.

This isnt elegant, its a mess. I still defend that the lenses should be detachable and sold separately for those who needs them. And who needs them? Only pro photographers. What apple does with the cameras since the iPhone X for me is outrageous. They are simply following the errors of their rivals. See the Motorola One? It’s camera design is terrible, yet Apple managed to do a job worse than Motorola.

Having the lenses detachable would keep the appeal of iPhones good design and please everyone for a long time. Then I would consider buying the phone without the lenses, that I would have never used anyway. They made the phone thicker instead of thinner, which is something I am also complaining about. Since the x model, it never sits flat on a table, unless it has a case, because these cameras are more protruding than previous model. This is what I call “bad design”.

A DSLR does the job much better than the iPhone. And is not more expensive than this phone. Till phones have sensors that match those of DSLRs, it's silly to think the output will be as good. The sensor is the base technology of how a camera works. And it’s why Apple will never match it. They can try with software all they want, but it will never happen no matter how many cameras they put on it.

The day the iOS updates to a version where the X model isn’t supported anymore, I will not upgrade the phone, unless Apple starts doing beautiful phones again.

I see ZERO improvements from the camera of iPhone 11. I tested them in an Apple Store today and compared with my X shots at the same place. Zero difference. ZERO. I even used some apps to improve some photos and reach the same quality, without spending a grand on a new phone. So no reason for an upgrade.

There is nothing new or interesting in this new model really - nothing that my X model can’t do. I watched the keynote again and made a few comparisons. Everything it does my X model can do. Then there is the question:

”Why the f... should we buy the new 11 model?” That question still remains unanswered, after five pages of this thread.

To sum up:
- the cameras design is ugly, the phone never sits flat on a table
- three cameras is an overkill for some users and just makes it expensive
- the design is thicker than before, I prefer a thinner phone
- the size of the phone is growing in a way I don’t like since the iPhone 6S. I could almost put my dinner over it and eat it
So far... four bad design and questionable errors from Apple.

Last elegant phone from Apple was iPhone 5s.

SirNickity wrote:

People rip apart every design choice Apple makes, and have since they became a majority player.

For every person ripping apart Apple's design there is at least one fanboy ready to masturbate on any given Apple design. It's at least symmetric.

dr_st wrote:

SirNickity wrote:

People rip apart every design choice Apple makes, and have since they became a majority player.

For every person ripping apart Apple's design there is at least one fanboy ready to masturbate on any given Apple design. It's at least symmetric.

polarizing

That's true -- brand loyalty is a thing I don't totally understand. I use what works, and while reputation plays into that, I won't hesitate to jump ship when/if it stops meeting my needs. I also don't "get" sports. ("You're rooting for laundry.")

OK, it's clear at this point we just disagree -- and that's fine. But, eh, I enjoy a good argument -- nodding in agreement gets boring quickly -- so just for funsies...

bfcastello wrote:

This isnt elegant, its a mess.

I wonder if you're capable of looking outside the boundaries of your own aesthetic? Is it beautiful? No, not particularly. It's different and draws attention to itself, and we're wired to appreciate symmetry and the things we find familiar. In three years, will it be as striking as it is now? Probably not. But more importantly, it solves a technical problem without resorting to fiddly workarounds. That is what I mean by "elegant."

bfcastello wrote:

I still defend that the lenses should be detachable and sold separately

Those already exist as clip-ons. Which get lost, broken, filled with dust, scratched up in your pocket, etc. This is a terrible idea. Apple is already criticized for hashtag-dongle-life, and you want to add tiny lenses. Now we need a surface dedicated to threading - which would probably be thicker than the existing lens, and you need some way of keeping track of a pile of loose contact lenses, unless you left them at home -- where they do you no good. Nobody's going to be onboard with this.

bfcastello wrote:

And who needs them? Only pro photographers.

I wish I had kept track on my recent vacation how many times my SO said "you should take a picture of this with your fancy camera -- my phone wouldn't do it justice." Couldn't zoom out enough, couldn't zoom in enough, couldn't handle the dynamic range, couldn't get enough light. The 11's sensor and lenses either fixes, or works around*, all of these. (* Albeit in software, perhaps -- but the bits have to exist for the software to do something with them. That tiny sensor is pulling off some impressive low-light performance. Punching well above its class.)

Pro photographers will just use a camera. They're purpose built and still better. (Although "the best camera is the one you have with you.") Laypeople will appreciate the added flexibility. Laypeople would not bother to buy, or bring with them, extra pinky-nail sized lenses.

bfcastello wrote:

They made the phone thicker instead of thinner, which is something I am also complaining about. Since the x model, it never sits flat on a table, unless it has a case, because these cameras are more protruding than previous model. This is what I call “bad design”.

On the other hand... less chance of scratching the rear surface if it isn't flat on another surface, grinding against it every time it's moved. I'm not saying "it's a feature" but a mm thicker or thinner at this point is not really a make-or-break situation. I would argue that we need to have a little more variety in screen size than thickness.

bfcastello wrote:

A DSLR does the job much better than the iPhone. And is not more expensive than this phone.

Today's model of my camera would cost about $1200 for the body alone. Lenses extra. It will spank the iPhone sensor, for sure. And a full-frame Canon will beat mine. That said, in a wide range of situations, the Canon will be negligibly better than mine, and mine will be better than a really good iPhone 11 photo -- but not by so much that it is striking. "There's no substitute for cubic inches" with sensors, but the software is closing the gap to a degree that you have to commit some time to honing your skills, some money to building up equipment, and then care enough about what remains, for the difference to really matter.

bfcastello wrote:

”Why the f... should we buy the new 11 model?” That question still remains unanswered, after five pages of this thread.

The question is answered: You probably shouldn't. Your phone is still current. Check back in four years.

SirNickity wrote:

People rip apart every design choice Apple makes, and have since they became a majority player.

Their marketshare isn't even that good compared to Android.

But it looks like you can make a lot of money by putting big profit margins on your devices, treat your brand like a religion and don't give two f*cks about the environment. Or paying taxes in foreign countries.

But apart from Apple as a whole, I think 3 cameras can be very useful on a phone in special edge cases. But if you really like to have three different lenses at hand because you're a professional photographer, you might as well just use your a real camera with hardware buttons instead of smudging around on a fiddly touchscreen.

For the average customer this feature is pretty useless. But it's a great marketing term to have three thingies where all the others only have one thingie. Not exclusive to Apple. Lenovo advertised my notebook with 4.6GHz Turbo Boost. Much more boost than any other boosts! It can do that for one second. 🤣

schmatzler wrote:

Their marketshare isn't even that good compared to Android.

Their market share is good enough where it matters -- they have something like 80% of the premium phones market. It's true that they don't care about low end/low profit margin users.

schmatzler wrote:

But it looks like you can make a lot of money by putting big profit margins on your devices, treat your brand like a religion and don't give two f*cks about the environment. Or paying taxes in foreign countries.

It would be interesting to compare Apple's environmental record with somebody like Samsung or Lenovo, I think the results would be pretty comparable.

SirNickity wrote:

OK, it's clear at this point we just disagree -- and that's fine. But, eh, I enjoy a good argument -- nodding in agreement gets boring quickly -- so just for funsies...

I wonder if you're capable of looking outside the boundaries of your own aesthetic? Is it beautiful? No, not particularly. It's different and draws attention to itself, and we're wired to appreciate symmetry and the things we find familiar. In three years, will it be as striking as it is now? Probably not. But more importantly, it solves a technical problem without resorting to fiddly workarounds. That is what I mean by "elegant."

It doesn’t solve my problem, it makes the phone F-ugly. If the solution is ugly but only “practical” then it is not, never, “elegant”. In Brazilian words, it’s “Gambiarra”. The English term is probably “Quick Fix” or “Dirty fix”.

SirNickity wrote:

I wish I had kept track on my recent vacation how many times my SO said "you should take a picture of this with your fancy camera -- my phone wouldn't do it justice." Couldn't zoom out enough, couldn't zoom in enough, couldn't handle the dynamic range, couldn't get enough light. The 11's sensor and lenses either fixes, or works around*, all of these. (* Albeit in software, perhaps -- but the bits have to exist for the software to do something with them. That tiny sensor is pulling off some impressive low-light performance. Punching well above its class.)

Pro photographers will just use a camera. They're purpose built and still better. (Although "the best camera is the one you have with you.") Laypeople will appreciate the added flexibility. Laypeople would not bother to buy, or bring with them, extra pinky-nail sized lenses.

Your words about the sensor are just pure bullshit. Their phones can do the job, they are just being humble to you. You have a contradiction here. You accept a software that does the job for the three cameras, but don’t accept that I can use an app (software) to do the same job in an older iPhone with only one camera.

I have no problem with detachable small lenses. You want the extra lenses? Then buy them separately. Or, if you wanna insist on that, Make the pro model use the ugly design but keep the standard model with just one camera. But no, Apple kept the squared ugly design with two cameras for both models and this is where my complaint about their design team starts. All I want is Apple to stop doing their stupid design of protruding cameras, particularly the new squared one. In this aspect, the iPhone 4S was just perfect.

The right thing to do in a vacation is take with you a DSLR. Period. Use a camera for photos, not a phone. At least we agree on one thing: Professionals will just use a camera.

I don’t appreciate the three camera lenses because it is a quick, dirty fix from Apple, that destroys the good beautiful design the iPhone once had. It’s proof that Apple can’t do the job like they used to do before (create good phones).

SirNickity wrote:

On the other hand... less chance of scratching the rear surface if it isn't flat on another surface, grinding against it every time it's moved. I'm not saying "it's a feature" but a mm thicker or thinner at this point is not really a make-or-break situation. I would argue that we need to have a little more variety in screen size than thickness.

WRONG. More chance of scratching. The protruding camera scratches a lot, the phone corners will scratch even more. Also, it makes harder to use the phone when it is left flat on a table. You have to use a case to be able to use it on a table and this is ridiculous, it’s impossible to leave the phone on a table without a case. I am against more variety in screen sizes because this is nightmare for front-end designers. I prefer small screens because it’s what I am used to. When Apple launches two phone models, I always go for the smaller one.

About the phone thickness or thinness, the smaller the better, for me it is a make-or-break decision, I don’t like thicker phones and I hate my phone case for that, but I have to use because scratches...

I saw a Xiaomi model, from a friend of mine, sitting flat on a table. No scratches. Even though it was sliding all over the table. Really. No scratches! And no protruding camera. This is good design.

SirNickity wrote:

Today's model of my camera would cost about $1200 for the body alone. Lenses extra. It will spank the iPhone sensor, for sure. And a full-frame Canon will beat mine. That said, in a wide range of situations, the Canon will be negligibly better than mine, and mine will be better than a really good iPhone 11 photo -- but not by so much that it is striking. "There's no substitute for cubic inches" with sensors, but the software is closing the gap to a degree that you have to commit some time to honing your skills, some money to building up equipment, and then care enough about what remains, for the difference to really matter.

I disagree that the software is closing the gap. From what I saw testing the 11 model, it will never match the quality of a real camera. I was not impressed.

SirNickity wrote:

The question is answered: You probably shouldn't. Your phone is still current. Check back in four years.

I am 100% sure that I don’t need it. Rumor has it that in 2020 the new models will be similar to the 4S model in design (not in size, unfortunately). I just hope they make a model with just one camera and no protruding design or squared design. I just hope they don’t get more thicker. Then I would really buy it. As of now, my love for Apple has decreased to a point where I just like what they do with their operating systems (macOS, iOS). But hardware design? I’m still laughing hard at the Mac Pro “Cheese Crater”... I could build a hackintosh with a more beautiful case and the same, if not better, specs (or performance) for less money.

bfcastello wrote:

more vitriolic frothing at the mouth with weird fixation on a camera arrangement on a phone he can just not buy

"You are a sad, strange little man, and you have my pity"" - Buzz Lightyear

SquallStrife wrote:

more vitriolic frothing at the mouth with weird fixation on a camera arrangement on a phone he can just not buy

I can understand his feelings, though (bfcastello, I'm extrapolating here, so correct me if I'm wrong). He probably likes iPhones and would like to upgrade to a newer model at some point (eventually it may even become more a 'need' than 'want'), but their design choice is something he cannot accept, which make him more upset with them than with some other brand that didn't have what he needed to begin with.

It's like what I felt when Lenovo removed the 'proper' 7-row keyboards from their Thinkpads (they were the last brand who still had it). Sure I can just "not buy" any of the newer models (and I didn't), but at some point I may need a newer laptop, and then I'll be stuck choosing from a bunch of unsatisfactory options. At that point I will have no reason to be angrier at Lenovo than at any other brand, but because in other ways Thinkpads really have everything I need, I still get royally pissed at them sometimes (and I don't feel this way towards any of the other vendors).

dr_st wrote:

SquallStrife wrote:

more vitriolic frothing at the mouth with weird fixation on a camera arrangement on a phone he can just not buy

I can understand his feelings, though (bfcastello, I'm extrapolating here, so correct me if I'm wrong). He probably likes iPhones and would like to upgrade to a newer model at some point (eventually it may even become more a 'need' than 'want'), but their design choice is something he cannot accept, which make him more upset with them than with some other brand that didn't have what he needed to begin with.

It's like what I felt when Lenovo removed the 'proper' 7-row keyboards from their Thinkpads (they were the last brand who still had it). Sure I can just "not buy" any of the newer models (and I didn't), but at some point I may need a newer laptop, and then I'll be stuck choosing from a bunch of unsatisfactory options. At that point I will have no reason to be angrier at Lenovo than at any other brand, but because in other ways Thinkpads really have everything I need, I still get royally pissed at them sometimes (and I don't feel this way towards any of the other vendors).

I see what you're getting at, but would you throw an actual temper tantrum over it like this?

Not liking the design is one thing, but he's gone on to invent reasons it's "bad" (like installing an app is somehow "the same" as having different physical lenses), and created a feedback loop of rage for himself.

I can empathise with the loss of a feature you are quite fond of. I was rather upset when Sony removed the OtherOS feature from the PS3 for instance, but I can't help but laugh when people justify their outrage with imaginary "facts".

SquallStrife wrote:

I see what you're getting at, but would you throw an actual temper tantrum over it like this?

While you may even be right, you also have to acknowledge that he has little else he can do about it other than try to be vocal about his disappointment.

SquallStrife wrote:

more vitriolic frothing at the mouth with weird fixation on a camera arrangement on a phone he can just not buy

I can buy the phone if I want. I can buy five of them if I want. I just don’t want to buy an ugly phone with features that are useless to me. Period

SquallStrife wrote:

I see what you're getting at, but would you throw an actual temper tantrum over it like this? […]
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dr_st wrote:

SquallStrife wrote:

more vitriolic frothing at the mouth with weird fixation on a camera arrangement on a phone he can just not buy

I can understand his feelings, though (bfcastello, I'm extrapolating here, so correct me if I'm wrong). He probably likes iPhones and would like to upgrade to a newer model at some point (eventually it may even become more a 'need' than 'want'), but their design choice is something he cannot accept, which make him more upset with them than with some other brand that didn't have what he needed to begin with.

It's like what I felt when Lenovo removed the 'proper' 7-row keyboards from their Thinkpads (they were the last brand who still had it). Sure I can just "not buy" any of the newer models (and I didn't), but at some point I may need a newer laptop, and then I'll be stuck choosing from a bunch of unsatisfactory options. At that point I will have no reason to be angrier at Lenovo than at any other brand, but because in other ways Thinkpads really have everything I need, I still get royally pissed at them sometimes (and I don't feel this way towards any of the other vendors).

I see what you're getting at, but would you throw an actual temper tantrum over it like this?

Not liking the design is one thing, but he's gone on to invent reasons it's "bad" (like installing an app is somehow "the same" as having different physical lenses), and created a feedback loop of rage for himself.

I can empathise with the loss of a feature you are quite fond of. I was rather upset when Sony removed the OtherOS feature from the PS3 for instance, but I can't help but laugh when people justify their outrage with imaginary "facts".

dr_st, that’s right.

SqualStrife, I am not “inventing reasons”. I can really use certain apps with my iPhone X to take the same photos the 11 does. Try it yourself. The new model is really ugly. Since I am a designer (something people is forgetting here) I can’t stand or use these ugly things. The design of a hardware or any other thing plays a really big role in my decision to buy. Then there is the usefulness of an “feature” (if you wanna call three cameras a feature).

I, too, sympathize when you're left out in the cold because a company went a different direction. But this goes a little too far, IMO. E.g., you don't like the large screen, so you want a smaller one. But you don't think there should be multiple sizes to cater to the crowd that DOES want a larger screen, because it fragments the UI. I.e., "I want it my way, and only my way." Well, good luck with that. Trying to please everyone ends up pleasing nobody.

bfcastello wrote:

The new model is really ugly. Since I am a designer (something people is forgetting here) I can’t stand or use these ugly things.

I'm with you here too. Not a designer but I have my sense of aesthetics, and I give more attention to the appearance of my computers than one would think a Thinkpad fan does.

dr_st wrote:

bfcastello wrote:

The new model is really ugly. Since I am a designer (something people is forgetting here) I can’t stand or use these ugly things.

I'm with you here too. Not a designer but I have my sense of aesthetics, and I give more attention to the appearance of my computers than one would think a Thinkpad fan does.

I use only Apple computers at the moment but in my opinion ThinkPads are really elegant and look much better than gaudy laptops with blue lights and giant logos etc.